Clearwell War Memorial (General)

by chrishowell @, Coleford, Gloucestershire, Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 18:31 (3821 days ago)

The memorial at Clearwell for WW2 includes the name of Private Kenneth Worgan - can anyone shed any light on this person please as army casualty lists only seem to have a total of six and there is no Kenneth among them.
Thanks

Clearwell War Memorial

by shepway @, Thursday, June 25, 2009, 09:30 (3820 days ago) @ chrishowell

Possibly this entry from Commonwealth War Graves website:

Name: WORGAN, BADEN FREDERICK
Initials: B F
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Gunner
Regiment/Service: Royal Artillery
Unit Text: 65 Field Regt.
Age: 23
Date of Death: 31/08/1942
Service No: 957051
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: XII. G. 11.
Cemetery: EL ALAMEIN WAR CEMETERY

He was born in the area. Here is birth registration:
Births Dec 1918
Worgan Baden F Kibble Westbury S. 6a 379

Mike

WORGAN / KIBBLE Marriage

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Thursday, June 25, 2009, 09:36 (3820 days ago) @ shepway

Name: John Worgan
Name: Ida Kibble
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 591


suspect :-

1901 Double View/ Littldeean Hill
Charles Worgan abt 1857 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Worgan abt 1853 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom Worgan abt 1877 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Richard Worgan abt 1879 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Worgan abt 1885 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Colin Worgan abt 1887 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
George Worgan abt 1891 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Dennis Worgan abt 1893 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

Ida KIBBLE / GUILLICK
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=4552

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

WORGAN / KIBBLE Marriage

by chrishowell @, Coleford, Gloucestershire, Sunday, June 28, 2009, 11:11 (3817 days ago) @ slowhands

Thanks Slowhands, the search goes on but I will succeed (eventually)
Chris

WORGAN Kenneth

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Sunday, June 28, 2009, 11:36 (3817 days ago) @ chrishowell

an avenue I have tried to break down :-

Name: Kenneth J Worgan
Mother's Maiden Surname: France
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1939
Registration district: F of Dean
Registration county: Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Herefordshire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 498

appears as the only child to Worgan/France

difficultly tracking a marriage ...

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Clearwell War Memorial

by chrishowell @, Coleford, Gloucestershire, Sunday, June 28, 2009, 11:09 (3817 days ago) @ shepway

Thanks Mike.
I had found him but can find no evidence to support his being from the Coleford/Clearwell area. The search goes on.

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Monday, October 21, 2019, 22:54 (50 days ago) @ chrishowell

Good Evening, I’m trying to find out more about Kenneth Worgan - he was born to Mabel Worgan ( maybe morgan ) my grandfather William worgan from Clearwell was brought up with him like a brother , however he was is uncle as Mabel was William older sister . I know that William wrote to war office many years ago and couldn’t find out where ken had died ?

Clearwell War Memorial

by chrishowell @, Coleford, Gloucestershire, Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 15:42 (48 days ago) @ Worgan family

The nearest match might be, as earlier stated, a Baden Fredk Worgan, and, like others, I can find no reference to a Kenneth Worgan listed as a casualty during WW2 on the CWGC website.

However, a glance at the 1939 Register does give details of a family in Temperance Cottages which would be of use. Hope I am not putting you up another blind alley. Could he have been adopted (albeit informally) by Agnes and William (see below).

I hope I am not breaching copywright but here below is an extract from the register which you can find on Find My Past.

Regards
Chris Hosell

No 3 Temperance Cottage, West Dean R.D., Gloucestershire, England

Worgan household
(4 people)

William
Worgan
18 Feb 1881
Male
Part Time Blacksmith
Married
19
1

Agnes
Worgan
27 Jun 1876
Female
Unpaid Household Duties
Married
19
2

Richard
Roberts
26 Jun 1874
Male
Cripple (Incapacitated)
Single
19
3

Kenneth
Roberts
08 Mar 1919
Male
Builders Labourer
-
19
4
Ref: RG101/5135E/003/37 Letter Code: ODZA
© Findmypast Ltd

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Thursday, October 24, 2019, 10:00 (47 days ago) @ chrishowell

Hi Chris , thankyou for this , yes this definitely my family. My grandad William bought number 4 Temperance cottages and my mother was born there in 1939. I will continue to try and find out what happened to Kenneth and his mother Mabel . Kind Regards

Clearwell War Memorial

by chrishowell @, Coleford, Gloucestershire, Thursday, October 24, 2019, 14:42 (47 days ago) @ Worgan family

You're welcome. I hope you find your answers and, when you do, would appreciate it if you could let me know for my own records of the wider Coleford War Dead listed on the memorial at the clock tower which is a combined listing of all the war memorials in the district with the exception of Redbrook.
Thanks.

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Friday, November 01, 2019, 20:40 (39 days ago) @ chrishowell

Hi , I’m pretty sure Kenneth worgan is Kenneth Roberts as that was his mother’s maiden name . I have located a grave in France to a Kenneth Roberts in the Sussex regiment however I’m wondering if it’s him as why would he join that regiment being from the forest ??

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Friday, November 01, 2019, 20:54 (39 days ago) @ Worgan family

He’s burried at Abbeville community cemetery

Clearwell War Memorial

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 01:25 (39 days ago) @ Worgan family

The grave you found has the following details;


Private ROBERTS, KENNETH WILLIAM

Service Number 5727679

Died Between 17/05/1940 and 09/06/1940

Aged 21

7th Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment


The CWGC website lists about 19 different "Kenneth Roberts", all WW2 British forces and all of a similar birthdate, a few dying in the battle of France.

As an outsider looking into this thread for the first time in a while, I'm curious why you selected this particular man ?
Is it because his second name William matches that of your Grandfather ?
That said some records give the casualty's next of kin, proving they're not your man, but others do not, so ... ?.


Thanks.

PS Searching his name in FreeBMD gives a number of "Kenneth W Roberts" born abt 1919, or later in case he lied abt his age when joining-up. They are from across the UK including Sussex, but the best match wrt age was born in Monmouth District, so could possibly be your Clearwell man, that's IF the W for this record means William, it might not be.

Surname Given Name Mother District Volume Page Transcriber
Births Mar 1919
Roberts Kenneth W. Roberts Monmouth 11a 52 ANNEDET

I cannot find any corresponding birth records for him in this site's PRs, or GlosBMD.
I've tried to find his full record in the GRO website, but once again and for reasons I still cannot fathom, I've had no luck with that site.

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 08:38 (38 days ago) @ Jefff

I've tried to find his full record in the GRO website, but once again and for reasons I still cannot fathom, I've had no luck with that site.

I think GRO only goes up to 1918 Jeff so that would be why you can't find it there.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 21:22 (38 days ago) @ probinson

Thanks Peter, yes I see that now. Trouble is my past efforts on that site have been rather less than effective haha. Those were for c1912 records which I found on FreebMD but couldn't find on GRO, but this was a few years ago so I'll try again now hoping for more luck.

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 08:58 (37 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

I've concluded this is our man.

The Army Roll of Honour lists the same K W Roberts (same service number) as living in Gloucestershire and a birth place of Monmouthshire (Clearwell coming under Monmouth at the time).

The grave record has him as being born 1919 (OK, he could have lied about his age) and there's only one birth record of a Kenneth W Roberts in 1919 who's mother's maiden name was Roberts also and that was registered in Monmouth.

Given that we can't seem to find a Kenneth Worgan anywhere and the connection between Kenneth W Roberts and the Worgan name, I think it would be reasonable to assume the Kenneth Worgan on the memorial is actually the Kenneth Roberts identified here. It would be good to get proof that Mabel was his mother though but that should be possible if someone gets a copy of the birth certificate.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 12:29 (37 days ago) @ probinson

I wonder if this is a sight of Mabel’s mother, Agnes:-

BNA Monmouthshire Beacon - Friday 29 September 1899

Coleford Petty Sessions, Tuesday

George Pyner, labourer, of Monmouth, was brought up on remand from the previous day on a charge of being in arrears to the extent of £2 2s., plus expenses, under a bastardy order obtained against him by Agnes Roberts on 24th August, 1897. Defendant said he was in the militia and had lately been in Chatham. He was going to work at Newport. He only had 12s. in his possession ; he was willing to pay that down and 5s. per week regularly afterwards, which would be 2s. on the arrears and 3s. on the order. Complainant agreed to accept the offer and defendant paid the 12s.

Again in 1907:-

BNA Gloucester Citizen - Wednesday 04 December 1907

Coleford Police Court

George Pyner, a Monmouth labourer, was summoned for being £4 12s. in arrears on an order made the Bench to pay 3s. 6d. week towards the illegitimate child of Agnes Roberts. —Defendant now promised 6s. a week until the arrears were paid, and this was accepted.

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 14:30 (37 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Good spot Mike. Certainly appears to be.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by MPGriffiths @, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 14:52 (37 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

1901 Census Gloucestershire, Newland

Clearwell

Richard ROBERTS - Head : Single aged 27, Labourer in Sand Quarry (Worker) born Clearwell
Agnes ROBERTS - Sister : Single aged 25 - born Clearwell
Mabel ROBERTS - Niece : aged 5 - born Clearwell


GRO Index

ROBERTS Mabel Annie (Dash for mother's surname)
1896
J Qtr Monmouth Volume 11A Page 17 (baptism gives birth date as 16 February 1896)


----


Public Tree on Ancestry gives Mabel, 1911 census

at the home of Thomas J TEAGUE (Court Farm, Clearwell Glous)

Mabel ROBERTS - Servant - aged 15

----

Clearwell War Memorial

by MPGriffiths @, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 15:25 (37 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

George PYNER

There is a Public Members Tree on Ancestry

George PYNER birth : 3 April 1872, Clearwell, Monmouthshire

parents: William Henry PYNER and Mary Elizabeth ROBERTS

On the 1911 census, George PYNER is living at 1 Railway Terrace, Nr Monmouth

Clearwell War Memorial

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 17:39 (37 days ago) @ probinson

Hi Peter,
yes that all makes good sense.
Glad you've managed to find some records for his soldiering, not easy for WW2 men.
Maybe this is why the OP also focussed on this particular CWGC record.

A thought, has anyone tried finding this K.W. Roberts in the 1939 register ?.
It might give a clue as to why he was in the Sussex regiment.

Thanks J.


PS thanks to your prompt, I did revisit the GRO website and found the people # I was unable to find when first looked a year or two ago, I can only assume they'd somehow been omitted from the early version of the site. So all good there, thanks.

#But not KW Roberts of course

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 17:50 (37 days ago) @ Jefff

A thought, has anyone tried finding this K.W. Roberts in the 1939 register ?.
It might give a clue as to why he was in the Sussex regiment.

Chris did, further back up the thread. He was in Clearwell.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, November 03, 2019, 17:54 (37 days ago) @ probinson

A point that passed me by is the fact he is living with his grandparents which suggests Mabel had perhaps died. Which could explain why his name was put as Worgan on the memorial.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, November 07, 2019, 17:19 (33 days ago) @ probinson

Good point Peter !

I think I'm right in saying these local memorials acroos the UK were produced on something of an ad-hoc unofficial basis, under the control of local government officers, with the names on the memorials supplied by the families and friends rather than from some official database, so some inconsistences and errors did creep in.

Clearwell War Memorial, K ROBERTS, 1939 Register

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, November 07, 2019, 17:37 (33 days ago) @ Jefff

Using today's free access to Ancestry and FindMyPast wesbites, I've just tried searching Kenneth in the 1939 Register, in the hope it might give a clue as to why he apparently joined the Sussex regiment, maybe he was living there ?.

First attempt using Ancestry, which is indeed offering free access for the Register, yet I couldn't find our man at all, but will try again later.

Using FindMyPast, using the exact same input data (name, birth year and place), I found our man straight away ! However the site's free access doesn't officially start until tomorrow, which I'd hoped was why I could not view the actual register image for him, but it seems the record is still "locked". However the available info clearly shows he was known as ROBERTS, and was still at home in Clearwell at the outbreak of WW2.


FindMyPast gave this hit from "the Roberts household"

Kenneth Roberts. 1919. West Dean R.D. Gloucestershire England. No 3 Temperance Cottage.

Worgan & ROBERTS household, Clearwell, 1939 Register

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, November 08, 2019, 16:09 (32 days ago) @ Jefff

It's taken a while as the FindMyPast website keeps stalling, presumably due to heavy demand at the start of this free access period, but no complaints as it's search engine worked perfectly and it's all free haha !

Here's the full 1939 Register entry for the above household.
I've also downloaded the image of the Register page and will happily email it to anyone who asks.


Worgan household, No 3 Temperance Cottages, Clearwell, West Dean R.D.

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
William Worgan 18 Feb 1881 Male Part Time Blacksmith Married 19 1
Agnes Worgan 27 Jun 1876 Female Unpaid Household Duties Married 19 2
Richard Roberts 26 Jun 1874 Male Cripple (Incapacitated) Single 19 3
Kenneth Roberts 08 Mar 1919 Male Builders Labourer - 19 4

(No added notes or info in margins etc)


Their neighbours are;

Arthur & Winifred Baker & family, the Stores, Lower Clearwell,
No 1 Temperance Cottages, Frank & Emily Rosser & family,
No 2 T.C., Record is "closed", but is clearly just the one person.
No 4 T.C., James & Alice Powell & son Edward.
Frederick & Sarah Jane Jones & family, Stark Farm.

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 14:53 (38 days ago) @ Worgan family

There's some inconsistencies here.

The 1939 register, as Chris has stated, shows a William Worgan living at number 3. This William is aged 58 and his wife, Agnes, is aged 63, so I assume they didn't have a daughter in 1939 so this is not your grandparents. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At number 4, a family by the name Powell is living. So I assume this is not your grandparents either.

Can you clarify?

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by shepway @, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 15:44 (38 days ago) @ probinson

The following should clarify the family connection:
In an earlier posting it is stated that Kenneth's mother is Mabel. This would appear to be her baptism:

Year: 1911
Month: Mar
Day: 19
Parents_Surname: ROBERTS
Child_Forenames: Mabel
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Agnes
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Clearwell
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: W Robinson
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Feb 16 1896. Adult
Notes: The date in the Memoranda column is probably the birth date.
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 73
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell

In 1909 Agnes married:

Marriages Jun 1909
ROBERTS Agnes Monmouth 11a 83
WORGAN William Monmouth 11a 83

This is the couple in the 1939 Register.

The baptism gives a date of birth for Mabel but initial search of the 1939 Register does not produce a match.

Birth Registrations for Agnes and her brother Richard:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
ROBERTS Richard MUDWAY 1873 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 30 109

ROBERTS Agnes MUDWAY 1875 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 32 428
Mike

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 16:17 (38 days ago) @ shepway

Hi Mike,

Yes, I had that. But doesn't explain the comment "My grandad William bought number 4 Temperance cottages and my mother was born there in 1939."

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Thursday, November 07, 2019, 15:17 (33 days ago) @ shepway

Yes this is all correct

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, November 02, 2019, 21:52 (38 days ago) @ Worgan family

Right. I think I've now made sense of this.

Seems it was the great grandfather that lived in Temperance Cottages. His son, also called William (1904 - 1990) married Phyllis and had a daughter in 1939. In the 1939 register they are living at Carpenter's Cottages in Clearwell, not Temperance Cottages.

Doesn't help finding Kenneth though. I don't know where the information comes from that he was Mable's son. No reason to disbelieve it but I can't find any confirmation of it either. I have Mable working as a servant at Court Farm, Clearwell, in 1911 but nothing after that.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Thursday, November 07, 2019, 08:24 (33 days ago) @ Worgan family

Good morning all, I have been reading through the previous comments so to clarify - Kenneth W Roberts was Mabel Roberts son . He was brought up by his grandparents William Talamge Worganand Agnes Roberts . They married eventually after having Mabel and William ( my grandfather) and went on to have Miriam . They lived at no 3 Temperance cottages . Mabel was in service and I’m told went on to have more children also ( adopted) . Kenneth was therefore born Roberts but brought up as Worgan . My grandfather and him brought up like brothers . My grandfather later moved next door to no 4 Temperance cottages . Kenneth was MIA and my grandfather tried for many years to find out where but to no avail . I really don’t know which regiment Kenneth joined it is only the fact of his middle name that made me think it could be him ?? Thankyou for all your interest

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Thursday, November 07, 2019, 19:23 (33 days ago) @ Worgan family

Although you may well be correct in George Pyner being Mabel ‘S father ? Agnes Roberts May not have got with William Tamalge Worgan until after Mabel . I definitely know he was the father of William my grandfather ( before marriage) to Agnes

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Thursday, November 14, 2019, 19:37 (26 days ago) @ Worgan family

I now have a photo of Kenneth from my mother ( in grandads belongings ) the cap badge seems to show the Dorset regiment? I put it on ancestry UK to ask others . The Kenneth Roberts I found burried in France was in the Sussex regiment so I’ll keep on searching ? ?

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Friday, November 15, 2019, 14:14 (25 days ago) @ Worgan family

Can you provide a link to the picture?

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Saturday, November 16, 2019, 12:44 (24 days ago) @ probinson

Hi ,if you send me you’re email address I’ll email you , I’m not sure how to do it on here

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, November 16, 2019, 13:53 (24 days ago) @ Worgan family

Can't post an email address on the forum and you haven't made yourself contactable so I can't send you an address. You can email me by clicking on the envelope next to my name in this post.

Or, if you go to the image, wherever you have posted it and right click on it and click on 'save image address' (might be different depending which browser you are using) and post the address here that will also work.

Thanks

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, November 16, 2019, 15:17 (24 days ago) @ Worgan family

Thanks for the picture. I agree, that's a Dorset badge. But I think the evidence you have for the person you found buried in France is quite convincing. I wouldn't discount it. Maybe the regiment was recorded incorrectly. Getting a copy of his military record would probably sort this out but I'm not sure how you would do that. Maybe others here could help. I couldn't find anything more on Ancestry.

--
Peter

Clearwell War Memorial

by Worgan family @, Milkwall Coleford Glos, Thursday, November 21, 2019, 15:12 (19 days ago) @ probinson

Hi all , I’ve now had confirmation from war records that Kenneth Roberts (Worgan ) was killed in action in May 1940 near Amiens France and is Burried in Abbeville military cemetery - I have row and number it says he was registered in Monmouth and resides in Gloucestershire and was born 1919 which is all correct - I sent for his birth certificate also - so although they have put him down as Sussex regiment , he was in the Dorset’s , thanks for all your help . Kind Regards

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