Herbert/Phelps family in Gloucestershire - Forest of Dean FHT Forum

I am researching my husban's family, Herbert/Phelps. I have found that they originated in the Forest of Dean, not in Yorkshire, where we live, as previously thought. First record we have is Elija Herbert circa 1815, in 1840 living in St. Bravles? Next is John and Eliza Phelps address not known circa 1818/1823. Decendants of Thomas Herbert and Eliza Phelps moved to Normanton near Leeds Yorkshire circa 1881 or just previous. I have census records of these and information as to the Herbert side of the family. I am having difficulty tracing the Phelps family in Yorkshire. I would be pleased to hear from anyone who is also researching this branch of the family. Regards Jean

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1841 HO107/364/7
Ruardean Hill (Extra Parochial ?)
Registration district: Ross
Sub-registration district: Ross
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Folio: 22
Page: 14

Elijah Herbert abt 1821 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Jean Herbert abt 1816 ? Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Elvina Herbert abt 1841 (4 months) Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire

1851
Jane Herbert abt 1814 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean Gloucestershire
Eleanor Herbert abt 1841 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Elizah Herbert abt 1849 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Lydia Herbert abt 1843 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Tom Herbert abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire

1861
Jane Herbert abt 1816 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean Gloucestershire Widow
Elijah Herbert abt 1848 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Levina Herbert abt 1841 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Thomas Herbert abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire

1871 ?

HERBERT Thomas
PHELPS Elizabeth
Forest of Dean Drybrook Holy Trinity
1873 2 104

added 11/5/12
Year: 1873
Month: Mar
Day: 24
Grooms_Surname: HERBERT
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age: 23
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Coal Miner
Grooms_Residence: Cinderford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Herbert
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Elijah
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Coal Miner
Brides_Surname: PHELPS
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 22
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Ruspidge
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Phelps
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Lime Burner
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Geo[rge] Phelps
Witness_2: Sarah Madley
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Barker Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 52
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

1881
Thoma Herbert abt 1850 Gloucestershire, England Head Normanton Yorkshire
Eliza Herbert abt 1852 Gloucestershire, England Wife Normanton Yorkshire
Elizabeth A. Herbert abt 1876 Gloucestershire, England Daughter Normanton Yorkshire
Jane L. Herbert abt 1880 Gloucestershire, England Daughter Normanton Yorkshire
Samuel Herbert abt 1878 Gloucestershire, England Son Normanton Yorkshire
Herbert Phelps abt 1874 Gloucestershire, England Son Normanton Yorkshire
Rosina Phelps abt 1871 Gloucestershire, England Daughter Normanton Yorkshire
Daniel Phelps abt 1860 Gloucestershire, England Boarder Normanton Yorkshire
Samuel Phelps abt 1858 Gloucestershire, England Boarder Normanton Yorkshire

1891
Thos Herbert abt 1850 Gloucestershire, England Head Normanton, Yorkshire
Elizabeth Herbert abt 1852 Gloucestershire, England Wife Normanton, Yorkshire
Evan Thos Herbert abt 1874 Gloucestershire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Samuel Herbert abt 1878 Gloucestershire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Jane L Herbert abt 1880 Gloucestershire, England Daughter Normanton, Yorkshire
Wm Elizah Herbert abt 1888 Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
George Herbert abt 1888 Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Jessie Herbert abt 1886 Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Albert Herbert abt 1889 Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Herbert abt 1891 Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire

1901
Thomas Herbert abt 1850 Nk, Gloucestershire, England Head Normanton, Yorkshire
Elizabeth Herbert abt 1852 Nk, Gloucestershire, England Wife Normanton, Yorkshire
Evan Thomas Herbert abt 1874 Nk, Gloucestershire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
George Herbert abt 1884 Normanton, Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Jessie Herbert abt 1886 Normanton, Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Albert Herbert abt 1889 Normanton, Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Alfred E Herbert abt 1891 Normanton, Yorkshire, England Son Normanton, Yorkshire
Lucy Herbert abt 1895 Normanton, Yorkshire, England Daughter Normanton, Yorkshire

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I have not posted on here for a while, as I have been researching another branch of the family in Yorkshire. Recently I have had several enquiries as to the parents of Elizabeth Herbert, no dob. She was the mother of Eligah Herbert born 1820 (record of baptism from this site)

Baptism record of Elijah Herbert
Record_ID: 12726
Entry_Number: 180
8 Oct 1820
Child_Forenames: Elijah
Fathers name NONE GIVEN
Mothers name : Elizabeth HERBERT
Residence: Woodside Occupation: Servant
Officiating_Minister: H. Berkin
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: base son of
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 23 Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

Elizabeth is our brick wall and I have found it impossible to get passed it. My husband is a direct descendant of Elizabeth and her son Eligah. I am bringing it up again in the hope that someone may have come up with a possible solution as to her parentage and subsequent marriage (if any)

The 1851 census for FOD shows Eligah and wife Jane (nee Baglin) living in East Dean with child Elvina (1841)
1861 Census shows Jane as a widow with 4 children. I have not so far found a record of the death of Eligha Herbert, who was listed as a coal miner on the 1841 census. Any ideas welcome.

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FOD records

Marriage at Staunton - 26 May 1840

Elijah HERBERT - age 28? so could be 20 - Bachelor, Labourer
residence: Hundred of St Briavels

father's name: Thomas GAY, Collier

married

Jane BAGLIN of full age - Spinster, Hundred of St Briavels

father: Daniel BAGLIN, Collier

mark of Elizabeth BAGLIN and James JENKINS

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Thank you, I already had the marriage of Elijah/Eligah. It does say on the marriage certificate that his father was Thomas Gay but I believe this to be a red herring. Has anyone actually traced Thomas Gay? This still does not give me Elizabeth's parents, which is what I am actually searching for but thank you for your reply.

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? ??? may be

Baptism at Ruardean - 11 October 1822

Parents Surname: MARFELL

Children's Forenames: Jane

mother's Forename: Elizabeth

mother's Surname : HERBERT

father's surname: Thomas

Residence: Ruardean

occupation: Mason

Memorandum: natural daughter of

Notes: Child could also be known as HERBERT

---

and the same baptism:

with repeated again with the surname:

Parents Surname: HERBERT

with notes: Child could also be know as MARFELL

----

FOD records: Marriage at Hope Mansell - 24 December 1823

Thomas MARFELL - hundred of St Briavels

married

Elizabeth HERBERT - hundred of St Briavels

mark of Thomas WILLIAMS and Abia MARFELL

1841 Census, Dean Forest

MARFELL

Thomas - 45 Mason
Elizabeth - 40
Lydia - 15
Abia - 10
Miles - 8

---

1851 Census, Ruardean, Woodside

MARFELL

Thomas - 55 born Ruardean
Elizabeth - 51 - born Monmouth, Llandilo
Miles - 18
Benjamin - 13
Enoch - 13
Selina - 12
Thomas - 9
Elizabeth g/d - 1

----

Elijah HERBERT is on the 1841 census (Ruardean) so in the correct vicinity

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Thank you for the information M.P. Griffiths. I have looked on some of the trees on Ancestry for Eligha and it would seem that a lot of people just copy down other peoples information without checking it. Several claim that Elizabeth Herbert originated in Wales (not disputing this) but there is no evidence to back it up, especially when the tree comes up with a long line of predecesors, again without evidence. These are mainly from our overseas cousins. I have contacted several of the owners of the trees and asked for proof of lineage but none is forthcoming. One person contacted me from America and stated that they had proof that the our Herbert line went right back to the "Kings of Wales, who came from Rome???????
Thanks again for the information.

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You could use the Advance Search i.e. witnesses etc to try and find family groups e.g.

Marriage at Hope Mansell - 24 February 1827

George PARSONS - hundred of St Briavels

married

Margaret HERBERT - hundred of St Briavels

witnesses: Thomas MARFELL and Ann PARSONS ???

Geo PARSONS, wife Margaret are on the 1841 census

PARSONS

Geo - 35
Geo - 7
Ephram - 5
Margaret - 35
Lucy - 14
Margate - 1
Elizabeth 1 -

Same page: Martha HERBERT age 65 years
---

Baptisms for George & Margaret PARSONS at Drybrook

Lucy - 1827
John - 1829
Harriet - 1831
George - 1834
Ephraim - 1836
Margaret - 1838
Elizabeth - 1840
John - 1843
Joseph - 1846
----

but by 1851, Margaret has died.

---

Burial at Drybrook - 13 December 1848

Margaret PARSONS, residence, Ruardean Hill age 41 years.

This tree is on familytreemaker.genealogy - Margaret's parents were William HERBERT and Martha WOORE -

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/i/c/Alison-Tracey-Ricketts/index.html

-----

and FOD records : Children of William & Martha HERBERT

1804 - Elizabeth - Ruardean
1806 - Margaret - Ruardean
1822 - Joy - Goodrich
1825 - George - Goodrich
1805 - William - Goodrich
1824 - George - Welsh Bicknor

----

FOD records have a marriage at Newland on 4 November 1820

James BRAIN (Widower) Married Sophia HERBERT - one witnesses was Thomas MANSEL (could this be MARFELL?)

1841 CENSUS, Ruardean Hill

James TIPPINS - 25
Sophia BRAIN - 40
Ephraim PARSONS - 30
Amelia PARSONS - 25
Thos PARSONS - 2m
Tim PARSONS - 24
Jas PARSONS - 6 months

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I am looking for the parents of Martha WOORE. Can anyone help please? More specifically starting with Martha's birth or baptism.

According to The HERBERT Family of Ruardean by James L Phillips-Evans LLB - (documents & articles/stories & articles on this website):
William HERBERT 1758-1824 (son of William HERBERT 1716-1783 and Margaret WOOD 1719-1783) married Martha WOORE on 4 Jul 1802. She died at Ruardean Hill in 1846 aged 72 and was buried at Drybrook on 3 Feb 1846 - which would suggest a c1774 birth.

Jim's recent post of Friday, May 11, 2012, says: '...This Elizabeth Herbert was baptised 26 April 1808 daughter of William Herbert 1758/1824 & Martha Woore 1782/1846...'

The closest matches I can find on this site's PRs are:
Record ID 125491
Entry Number
Year 1775
Month Oct
Day 3
Parents Surname MOOR
Child Forenames Martha
Fathers Forenames Edward
Mothers Forenames Martha
Mothers Surname
Residence
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P138 IN 1/3
Page Number 25
Parish Chapel English Bicknor

Record_ID: 303271
Entry_Number:
Year: 1782
Month: Dec
Day: 15
Parents_Surname: WOOR
Child_Forenames: Martha
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Goodrich
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Henry Dangerfield Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: BF16/4
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Goodrich

If anyone could point me to the correct birth/baptism record for Martha and then hopefully her parents, I'd be most grateful.

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Record_ID: 303271
Entry_Number:
Year: 1782
Month: Dec
Day: 15
Parents_Surname: WOOR
Child_Forenames: Martha
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Goodrich
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Henry Dangerfield Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: BF16/4
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Goodrich

If anyone could point me to the correct birth/baptism record for Martha and then hopefully her parents, I'd be most grateful.

you can dismiss Goodrich 1782 by checking here
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=13509

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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William & Martha HERBERT - 2 different families???

Thank you Slowhands for your help and advice to dismiss Goodrich 1782. It's much appreciated but it led me to question further and now - I'm confused!!

Continuing my quest to find the birth and parents of Martha WOORE c1774-1782 whom I believe married William HERBERT 1758-1824, I have looked at the PRs again. Would I be right to assume that there are two different families with same names, one living in Ruardean, the other in Goodrich? Am I confusing the two?

According to the FOD PRs: the Ruardean couple appear to have 2 children, Elizabeth 1804 & Margaret 1806 and the Goodrich couple appear to have 4 children William 1805 (Notes In this record the child's and father's forenames were not clear so the best guess was given), then a big gap until Joyce 1822, George 1824 (2 identical records with different record IDs), George 1825.

56076 1804 HERBERT Elizabeth William Martha Ruardean
303627 1805 HERBERT William William Martha Goodrich Goodrich
56175 1806 HERBERT Margaret William Martha Ruardean
159929 1822 HERBERT Joyce William Martha Copped Wood Labourer Goodrich
316213 1824 HERBERT George William Martha Goodrich Day Labourer Welsh Bicknor
1052055 1824 HERBERT George William Martha Goodrich day labourer Welsh Bicknor
159988 1825 HERBERT George William Martha Copped Wood Labourer Goodrich

This has thrown some doubt on my tree as I thought 'my Ruardean family' were William HERBERT and Martha WOORE, but looking again at the marriage record I note that it states they were married in Goodrich.

Record_ID: 70039
Entry_Number:
Year: 1802
Month: Jul
Day: 4
Grooms_Surname: HERBERT
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Of this parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: WOORE
Brides_Forenames: Martha
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Of this parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Elizabeth Pritchard
Witness_2: Charles Baylis
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: H.Y Williams Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: Banns: ... were duly published on three successive Sundays by me H.Willia]ms.
Notes: Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: BF16/7
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Goodrich
Soundex_Groom: H616
Soundex_Bride: W600

Might this possibly be the marriage record for the other couple? It might account for this William being described as a bachelor when really he is a widower due to the death of his first wife Hannah YEMM who died in 1789 in Ruardean - a point previously raised?

Further evidence for my theory is that the Goodrich couple were married and had 3 of their children baptised by the same Officiating Minister, Harry Williams, Vicar. The Ruardean couple had their two baptised in Ruardean Parish Church by Officiating Minister J H BEESTON. This was the same minister who buried William's first wife, Hannah YEMM, and christened their 3 children there. So I don't suppose anyone happens to have a marriage record for William & Martha in Ruardean Parish Church with J H Beeston too, do they?!!!

The 1841 census has the widowed Martha HERBERT living in Ruardean Hill, Dean Forest until her death there in 1846. I understand that these places are geographically close but I can't work out if all the records apply to one couple or two?

I really would appreciate any ideas. Many thanks.

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Needs some more work but instinct says 2 families ....

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Needs some more work but instinct says 2 families ....

continues here _

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=37006

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Slowhands

I note your comment " you can dismiss Goodrich 1782 by checking here". Perhaps you could explain your logic.

I had the Martha Woore who married William Herbert as being the baptism on 15 Dec 1782, daughter of John & Mary.

However, knowing you are rarely wrong - I checked my own records and spotted that I had missed a potential error; I had Martha as being buried in 1846. I may have recorded this directly from the Parish Records, where perhaps the age wasn't clear, but checking the F o D site Parish Records I note that she was 72 when buried in 1846 making her birth around 1774.

Year: 1846
Month: Feb
Day: 3
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Martha
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Age_at_death: 72 years
Officiating_Minister: W.C.Badger
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: Note in Name Column- 12th row
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/11
Page_No: 90
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

Jim Ashton

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Slowhands

I note your comment " you can dismiss Goodrich 1782 by checking here". Perhaps you could explain your logic.

I had the Martha Woore who married William Herbert as being the baptism on 15 Dec 1782, daughter of John & Mary.

However, knowing you are rarely wrong - I checked my own records and spotted that I had missed a potential error; I had Martha as being buried in 1846.

Jim Ashton

Jim

Its based on Dave's ascertion that she dies in Ruardean in 1870 and his one of "his" !!!

you can dismiss Goodrich 1782 by checking here
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=13509

You can view Martha HOAR and William COLE in my Family Tree

http://david.watkins.org.au/cgi-bin/perlged.cgi?method=get&action=display&selec...

Martha HOAR born 15 Dec 1782 at Goodrich is my 4th great-grandmother and she died at Ruardean 1870.
Her marriage details which were only were added to the Parish Records database a few days ago:

Entry_Number:
Year: 1802
Month: Aug
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: COAL
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: of this parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: HOAR
Brides_Forenames: Martha
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: of this parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of James Hoar
Witness_2: Thomas Jackson
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Prosser Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AW19/4
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Welsh Bicknor

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David Watkins
Forum Administrator

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Thank you for the information M.P. Griffiths. I have looked on some of the trees on Ancestry for Eligha and it would seem that a lot of people just copy down other peoples information without checking it. Several claim that Elizabeth Herbert originated in Wales (not disputing this) but there is no evidence to back it up, especially when the tree comes up with a long line of predecesors, again without evidence. These are mainly from our overseas cousins. I have contacted several of the owners of the trees and asked for proof of lineage but none is forthcoming. One person contacted me from America and stated that they had proof that the our Herbert line went right back to the "Kings of Wales, who came from Rome???????
Thanks again for the information.

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=35620

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Jean

I know we have shared a lot of information in the past. It has been useful going over this thread, some of it going back a few years. As ever when Slowhands becomes involved, I learn something new; in this case I had the marriage between "Thomas" Herbert & Elizabeth Phelps wrong - apart from the fact that the F o D web site Parish Records shows him as William, which may indeed be correct, I had the date as 14th not 24th March, but worse still I had it recorded as being at Cinderford but with the same witnesses - this must have been passed to me by someone else !!
The transportation possibility is also interesting.

As the Marfell name is shown in the thread, I thought I would clear up the Elizabeth Herbert who gave birth to an illegitimate Jane Herbert baptised 11 Oct 1822. This Elizabeth Herbert was baptised 26 April 1808 daughter of William Herbert 1758/1824 & Martha Woore 1782/1846. She did indeed marry my GGG Grandfather Thomas Marfell 1795/1859.

There has always been some doubt as to which Elizabeth Herbert Thomas married, with some mention in census of Monmouth Wales and variations as to her age. I have a copy of Thomas's will (in which she gets 9 pence per week for the rest of her life - and a bed)and I am fairly certain I have the right Elizabeth :

1841 Census Newham Bottom
Thomas Marfell 45 Mason
Elizabeth 40
Lydia 15
Abia 10
Miles 8

1851 Census Ruardean East Dean
MARFELL Thomas 55 Stone Mason Ruardean
Elizabeth 51 .Llandilo Monmouth
Miles 18 Coal Miner East Dean
Benjamin 13 Coal Miner East Dean
Enoch 13 Scholar East Dean
Selina 12 Scholar East Dean
Thomas 9 Scholar East Dean
Elizabeth Grand Daughter 1 East Dean

RUARDEAN Memorial Inscription
Number 59
In memory of Thomas Marfell died 29th August 1859 aged 64 years. Also Elizabeth wife of Thomas Marfell died 21st January 1880 aged 79 years.

1861 Census East Dean
RG9 1755 290
Elizabeth 60 Head.Widow East Dean
Miles son 29 Engineer East Dean
Elizabeth grandaughter 10 East Dean

1871 Census East Dean
Miles Marfell 38 Mason East Dean (son of Thomas Marfell & Elizabeth nee Herbert)
Jane wife 36 Hfd
Edith 10 Hfd
Elizabeth 7 Wales
Miles 6 East Dean
Miriam 4 East Dean
Rhoda 1 East Dean
Elizabeth mother W 70 East Dean

In my own records for the illegitimate Jane Herbert 1822, transcribed at Gloucester Records Office. I have noted "Baptism unclear as to surname - Herbert or Marfell, but father shown as Thomas Marfell & Mother Elizabeth Herbert". All a little academic as she died April 1823.

Jim Ashton

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Assize records are also held at The National Archives.

Research guides

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=154

Looking at various website entries - Many convicts some from Gloucestershire/Herefordshire (via Portland Prison) were sent to Tasmania 1851

Google:

Sentencing to Departure - Prison Hulks & Convict Gaols - Victorian

this is the link to front page

Victorian Crime & Punishment

http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/index.php

---

Convict Records

www.coraweb.com.au/convict.htm

----

There are 46 pages on the 1851 census

Dorset
Portland District Convict Prison

two from Gloucestershire

Wm WHITE, age 29, Butcher from Coleford
David YOUNG, age 22 - Collier, Viol (Viney? Hill) ( *** Ancestry: 10 years transportation housekeeping) possibly the David Young age 14 on the 1841 census Lydney, or David YOUNG age 10 on the 1841 census Newland

----

Gloucestershire Genealogical Database

David YOUNG - 17 January 1849 age 20 (Collier - Coleford)
William WHITE - 21 October 1849 age 28 (Butcher - Coleford)

-----

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Hi Jean,
without wishing to doubt your research, please note your above post wrt 1851 Census appears to be in error, although I suspect you're just getting Elijah Sr & Jr mentally mixed-up while typing.

To clarify, my Glos FHS cd for the 1851 Census quotes:

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0089-0116 ED.3A NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0113 Schedule: 155

Address: Ruardeanhill

HERBERT Jane HD W 37 Charwoman GLS West Dean (c1814)
HERBERT Eleanor DA U 10 - GLS East Dean (c1841)
HERBERT Lydia DA U 8 - GLS East Dean (c1843)
HERBERT Elijah SO U 2 - GLS East Dean (c1849)
HERBERT Tom SO U 1 - GLS East Dean (c1850)

So it appears Elijah Sr is no longer resident at this household by 1851. Personally it seems clear his absence is due to the Sheepstealing charge spotted by Slowhands.

PS A few months ago I think I sent you a direct email enquiring whether you had spotted that Glos FHS were selling transcripts of the Will(1853) of John Parson, husband of Ann Herbert & father of Isaac, Thomas & Enoch; did you see this mail ?. More to the point are you interested in gaining a copy ?. I've checked the Wills section of the FoD site and this particular Will isn't there, although there are those of several later Parsons including John's sons Isaac(colliery proprietor), Thomas & Enoch.
Well GlosFHS are once again selling this Will via a wellknown internet auction site if you're interested. They are actually selling 60 or so to raise funds although most Wills are from outside the Forest. Please be assured I don't have any financial or Society interests in this whatsoever.

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As Jean has said, she (nor I)can find proof for the death of Elijah Herbert, but the actual 1851 Census entry for Jane Herbert nee Baglin widow of Elijah Herbert actually shows her as a widow :

1851 Census East Dean Gloucestershire
HO107, piece 1959, folio 113, page 43, GSU roll 87359
Address: Ruardean Hill
Jane Herbert Head Widow occ: Charwoman age 37 born abt 1814 West Dean Glouc
Eleanor Herbert Dau age 10 born abt 1841 East Dean
Lydia Herbert Dau age 8 born abt 1843 East Dean*
Elijah Herbert Son age 2 born abt 1849 East Dean
Thomas Herbert Son age 1 born abt 1850 East Dean

1861 Census East Dean
RG9, piece 1755, folio 55, page 24, GSU roll 542863
Address: Paragon East Dean
Jane Herbert Head Widow occ: Charwoman age 45 born abt 1816 West Dean Glouc
Elijah Herbert Son age 13 born abt 1848 East Dean Glouc
Levina Herbert Dau occ: Domestic Servant age 20 born abt 1841 East Dean Glouc
Thomas Herbert Son age 11 born abt 1850 East Dean Glouc

I have tried to trace another Elijah Herbert alive in 1851 who might have been awaiting transportation. I have the transcribed version of the 1851 Census for Gloucestershire which is searcheable by name and location, I have just searched for a. n. other Elijah Herbert and none could be found. The Elijah guilty of sheep stealing could have been on his way to Australia by then however. It is also possible that he might have been declared as dead to the enumerator in 1851, it being easier than stating that her husband had been transported.

Jane Herbert nee Baglin, then appears with her daughter Lavinia who married George Dobbs :

1871 Census Flaxley Cinderford Gloucestershire
RG10, piece 2603, folio 35, page 33, GSU roll 835278
Address: 2 Abbey Street Flaxley Gloucestershire
George Dobbs Head occ: Collier age 30 born abt 1841 Weston Herefordshire
Levinia Dobbs Wife age 31 born abt 1840 East Dean
Rachel Dobbs Dau age 6 born abt 1865 Flaxley Gloucestershire
Emma J Dobbs Dau age 2 born abt 1869 Flaxley Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Dobbs Dau age 1 month born abt 1871 Flaxley Gloucestershire
Alfred Messenger Lodger occ: Laborer age 21 born abt 1850 South Cerney? Gloucester
Benjamin Hall Lodger occ: Collier age 17 born abt 1854 English Bicknor Gloucestershire
Jane Herbert Mother-in-Law age 60 born abt 1811 West Dean Gloucestershire

Jane not shown with George Dobbs in 1881.

1891 Census Cinderford
RG12 2006/168
George Dobbs 50 Sanitary Works Labourer Herefordshire
Lavinia 49 Glos
George 25 Agent for Singers Cinderford
Herbert J 13 Apprentice Iron Foundry Cinderford
Frank A 7 Cinderford
Jane Herbert 74 mother in law Mid Wife Berry Hill

1901 Census East Dean
Geo Dobbs abt 1841 Herefordshire, Labourer
Lavinia Dobbs abt 1842 Cinderford,Wife
Frank A Dobbs abt 1883 Cinderford, Son
Jane Herbert abt 1816 Berry Hill Coleford, Mother-in-law
Doris Howells abt 1899 Cinderford, Granddaughter
John Gough abt 1878 Cinderford, Boarder

To carry on the Marfell interest, George Dobbs & Lavinia nee Herbert's son Frank Albert 1884 married Amy Elizabeth Marfell 1879 on 1 Feb 1909. The 1911 Census entry for Frank Albert Dobbs, shows that his mother Lavinia Herbert was deceased, with George being a widower.

Jim Ashton

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I have not so far found a record of the death of Eligha Herbert, who was listed as a coal miner on the 1841 census. Any ideas welcome

Looks like him

1849 herbert elijah U Ruardean Q/Gc6/2 collier Gaol

No more children after 1850 ...

Name: Elijah Herbert
Date of Trial: 1 Jan 1850
Trial Year: 1850
Location of Trial: Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Sentence: Transportation - 10 years (?)

Crime Sheepstealing

Can not spot him in Goal in 1851 awaiting transportation, or on an Australia bound convict ship/register....

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Year: 1840
Month: Oct
Day: 19
Grooms_Surname: PHELPS
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age: Full Age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Phelps
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: JACKSON
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: Full Age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jackson
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Daniel
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Hallier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Thomas Ball[?]
Witness_2: William Hale
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Crawley
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P145 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 24
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley

1841 HO107/364/9
Ruspidge

Registration district: Ross
Sub-registration district: Ross
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Folio: 34

John Phelps abt 1821 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1826 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
John Phelps abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire

1851
John Phelps abt 1815 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1823 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean Gloucestershire
Charles Phelps abt 1844 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
George Phelps abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
John Phelps abt 1840 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
William Phelps abt 1827 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Brother East Dean Gloucestershire
William Phelps abt 1846 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire

1861
John Phelps abt 1815 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1823 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean Gloucestershire
Daniell Phelps abt 1859 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1852 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
George Phelps abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Samuel Phelps abt 1857 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
William Phelps abt 1847 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire

1871
John Phelps abt 1815 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1825 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean Gloucestershire
Daniel Phelps abt 1859 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1852 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Jessie Phelps abt 1865 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Mary Ann Phelps abt 1868 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Rosina Phelps abt 1870 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Samuel Phelps abt 1857 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire

1881
John Phelps abt 1815 Mitcheldean, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury on Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Phelps abt 1823 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Westbury on Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jesse Phelps abt 1865 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury on Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Ann Phelps abt 1867 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury on Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire

Year: 1887
Month: May
Day: 19
Surname: PHELPS
Forenames: John
Residence: Ruspidge Cinderford
Age_at_death: 73 y[ea]rs
Officiating_Minister: J.H.N.Barton
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/13
Page_No: 162
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John

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Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Herbert/Phelps family in Gloucestershire (General)

Elijah HERBERT 1821 Ruardean Hill

Elizabeth Herbert (again)

Elijah HERBERT - father Thomas GAY -

Elijah HERBERT - father Thomas GAY -

Elizabeth HERBERT - MARFELL marriage ?

Elizabeth HERBERT - MARFELL marriage ?

Eliz/Margaret HERBERT - parents William & Martha (nee WOORE)

Martha HERBERT 1774 ish nee WOORE d 1846

Martha HERBERT 1774 ish nee WOORE d 1846

William & Martha HERBERT - 2 different families???

William & Martha HERBERT - 2 different families???

William HERBERT 1758-1824 & Martha JONES ? continued

Martha HERBERT 1774 ish nee WOORE d 1846

Martha WOORE 1782 Goodrich

HERBERT - MARFELL prior thread

Elizabeth HERBERT - MARFELL marriage ?

Elijah HERBERT - Assizes Records/Prison Ships

Elijah & Jane Herbert - 1851 Census

Elijah & Jane Herbert - 1851 Census

Elijah HERBERT 1821 Ruardean Hill - > Transportation 1850

John PHELPS 1821 -1887 Ruspidge