George and Thomas COOPER in Australia from 1863 (Documents Articles)

by george @, Saturday, October 27, 2012, 22:52 (2917 days ago)

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=15358

Does anyone know what happened to George and Thomas Cooper, who along with Thomas Gwilliam, arrived on the Clyde (ship) at Fremantle in May 1863? I read an article which said they all died before their time was up but apparently not. I would be very grateful for any information.

George and Thomas COOPER - Convict Records

by m p griffiths @, Sunday, October 28, 2012, 17:59 (2916 days ago) @ george

some background....


Convict Records - Clyde 1863


http://www.convictrecords.com.au/ships/clyde/1863


Ancestry:

Criminal Records

England 1861, Gloucester

George COOPER/Thomas COOPER, Richard ROBERTS/Thomas GWILLIAM - Manslaughter - 15 years

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Gloucestershire Genealogical Database

4 September 1861

All from Coleford

Thomas COOPER - 29, Collier
George COOPER - 23, Collier
Richard ROBERTS - 34, Collier
Thomas GWILLIAM - 31, Quarryman


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1861 Census, Joyford/Coleford

GWILLIAM

James - 80
Elizabeth - 70
Thomas - 31 unmarried, labourer


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Trying to sort out, whether Thomas & George were brothers.....

There is a Thomas COOPER, age 58 single, general labourer, born Coleford on the 1891 Census for Sewdley, glos

George and Thomas COOPER - Convict Records

by george @, Sunday, October 28, 2012, 22:41 (2916 days ago) @ m p griffiths

Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it. Yes, Thomas and George were brothers. I read some information on here the other day which showed newspaper items from the time when the trial took place which ended up in Thomas and George Cooper and Thomas Gwilliam being transported on the 'Clyde' to Fremantle.

The Fremantle gaol would only recently have been completed and I assume they were taken straight there.

Thomas's wife remarried in 1871 and it says that she was a widow. However, I am wondering if he was really dead.

A newspaper clipping I have says that they all died before they had completed their 15 years. As they were sentenced in 1861 but didn't arrive in Australia until 1863 I think they would have only done 13 years as convicts in Australia. However, another thread on here says that Thomas Gwilliam didn't die until 1914 or thereabouts in York Hospital in Western Australia.

I keep trying to find a record of Thomas and George's either release or deaths. (Thomas was 29 when convicted and George was 23).

(They are the children of William and Hannah.)

I came across another newspaper item which mentions a Thomas Gwilliam in York about the times I am looking at and the description seems about right.

Thanks again.

George and Thomas COOPER, Thomas GWILLIAM

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 29, 2012, 02:35 (2916 days ago) @ george

http://www.forest-of-dean.net/downloads/Newspaper/Thomas_Gwilliam_Guilty_of_Manslaughte...

From FoD PRs, for completeness;

Possibly;

Record_ID: 114669
Entry_Number: 17
Year: 1828
Month: Mar
Day: 8
Parents_Surname: GWILLIAM
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Joyford
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: T.R. Garnsey Incumb[en]t
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: 8212
Page_Number: 3
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: G450

But I think most likely, given the report states he was a "quarryman" and a Richard ROBERTS was also charged;

Record_ID: 9048
Entry_Number: 893
Year: 1828
Month: Mar
Day: 26
Parents_Surname: GWILLIAM
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname: ROBERTS
Residence: Col[e]ford
Occupation: Stonecutter
Officiating_Minister: H R Revell Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 76
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex: G450


And Brothers;

Record ID 114746
Entry Number 94
Year 1830
Month May
Day 13
Parents Surname COOPER
Child Forenames Thomas
Fathers Forenames William
Mothers Forenames Hannah
Mothers Surname
Residence Berry Hill
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister R. Davies Off[iciating] Min[iste]r
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page Number 12
Parish Chapel Christchurch

Record ID 115019
Entry Number 366
Year 1837
Month Nov
Day 23
Parents Surname COOPER
Child Forenames George
Fathers Forenames William
Mothers Forenames Hannah
Mothers Surname
Residence Berry Hill
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister T.R. Garnsey
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page Number 46
Parish Chapel Christchurch

Their siblings
1822 COOPER William, William & Hannah, Joyford Collier Christchurch
1824 COOPER Joseph, William & Hannah, Joyford Collier Christchurch
1827 COOPER Sarah, William & Hannah, Joyford Collier Christchurch
1830 COOPER Thomas, William & Hannah, Berry Hill Collier Christchurch
1833 COOPER Eliza, William & Hannah, Berry Hill Collier Newland
1835 COOPER John, William & Hannah, Berry Hill Collier Christchurch
1837 COOPER George, William & Hannah, Berry Hill Collier Christchurch
1840 COOPER James, William & Hannah, Joyford Collier Christchurch


Given the dates I think this is Thomas' Marriage;
Record_ID: 2322
Entry_Number: 97
Year: 1853
Month: Dec
Day: 31
Grooms_Surname: COOPER
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Shortstanding
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Cooper
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: JONES
Brides_Forenames: Sarah
Brides_Age: 20
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Shortstanding
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jones
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Laborer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: Mark of Joseph Gurney
Witness_2: Eliza Griffiths
Other_Witnesses: None
Officiating_Minister: W. H. Taylor
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Notes: -
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 49
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex_Groom: C160
Soundex_Bride: J520


I think this is perhaps his wife Sarah's second marriage ?;

GREEN William JONES Sarah Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office 1871 4 105

George and Thomas COOPER, Thomas GWILLIAM

by george @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 07:58 (2915 days ago) @ Jefff

Thanks, Jefff.

I think the second marriage of Sarah is this:

Record_ID: 2446
Entry_Number: 221
Year: 1872
Month: Sep
Day: 15
Grooms_Surname: VOYCE
Grooms_Forenames: Robert
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Blacksmith
Grooms_Residence: West Dean
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Voyce
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Carpenter
Brides_Surname: COOPER
Brides_Forenames: Sarah
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Widow
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Shortstanding
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jones
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas (deceased)
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Thomas Baker
Witness_2: Jane Jones
Other_Witnesses: None
Officiating_Minister: W. H. Taylor
Event: Marriage


I read newspaper clippings in the link a couple of days ago and was fascinated. It is difficult to work out what really happened.

I have another newspaper clipping which is entitled: 'Poachers still in the Dean' which refers to this case and is written about a century after the event. It also says: 'They were deported to France to serve their sentence and all four died before their time was up.' (Maybe they were on a prison ship in the channel waiting for their journey on 'Clyde' as it only sailed twice a year.

Then I read the post on here that says that Thomas Gwilliam died in the York Hospital in Western Australia many years later.

I will have to concentrate on finding the information regarding Thomas and George's death from Australian records...if there are any.

Robert VOYCE/Sarah COOPER (Convict Ships)

by m p griffiths @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 08:11 (2915 days ago) @ george

There were no deaths on the journey to Perth in 1863

http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/index.html


If you search for Clyde - you can also get physical descriptions of George & Thomas COOPER

i.e.

COOPER - George - single
Collier, no children, 5'7 Inches - light brown hair, grey eyes, full face - sallow complexion, middling stout, scar on head

COOPER - Thomas - married
Collier, 4 children 5' 9 inches - brown hair, light blue eyes, round face - fresh complexion, middling stout, slightly pock pitted.

- so he must have known about Lucy born in 1862

GWILLIAM - Thomas
Farmer, no children 5' 4 and a quarter inches, light red & scant hair, blue eyes, oval face, sallow complextion


can't see a Richard ROBERTS on this list (quarryman), but there is a

ROBERTS - James - stone mason etc., but looking at the other Clyde site - he was charged at the Gloucester General Quarter Sessions. Appears to be convicted of Sheepstealing with previous conviction of felony (14 years transportation)

Single, no children, 5' 9 and a half inches, tall, red hair, grey eyes, long face, red complexion, stout, pockpitted.

Gloucestershire Gen Database: James ROBERTS, age 35, Stone Cutter, Coleford, date of trial - 12 January 1862.

--

?

1871 Census, Shortstanding

Richard ROBERTS - 42 Coalminer (now ill) -
Amelia ROBERTS - 33
Hannah ROBERTS - 2
Sarah ROBERTS - mother - widow - midwife, born English Bicknor

---


The chart goes across and gives, build, registration number, distinguishing marks etc. 29 of the convicts are 'pockpitted' out of 320.

---

'I think the second marriage of Sarah is this - 15 September 1872, Robert VOYCE/Sarah COOPER' nee JONES


1911 Census, Wales

Shortstanding, Coleford - living in 4 rooms


Robert VOYCE, 69 - born Gloucester - labourer, quarryman, retired.
Sarah VOYCE - 77 - married 38 years, no children, born Christchurch, Coleford


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1861 Census, Joyford Hill


COOPER

Thomas - 31
Sarah - 27
Thomas - 8
Emily - 4
George - 2
Thomas WORGAN, 69 boarder


1871 Census, West Dean

Thomas JONES - 76
Sarah COOPER - widow - 36
Thomas COOPER - 18
George COOPER - 12
Lucy COOPER - 9 (christened 24 April 1862) - married John LAWSON, 13 March 1887, father: Thomas COOPER (deceased)


1881 Census, Shortstanding

Sarah VOICE - 46
George COOPER, son 22


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The Clyde arrived in Perth


---

'George & Thomas: they are the children of William & Hannah'


1841 Census, Dean Forest, Joyford

COOPER

William - 35 Coalminer
Hannah - 35
William - 15
Joseph - 12
Sarah - 10
Thomas - 8
John - 5
George - 6 months

George COOPER'S scar

by george @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 11:53 (2915 days ago) @ m p griffiths

I note that George Cooper had a scar. I think that must be where the plain clothed policeman hit him over the head. They seem to agree on that point in their statements.

Re Richard Roberts not being on that boat the Clyde. I wonder if he ended up with a lighter sentence because there is some talk of it in those newspaper items. The judge says if he sees any reason to be more lenient (my words) in the future he will express it in the proper quarters.

That is strange as the policeman's original statement says that Richard Roberts was the one who hit him over the head.

Richard ROBERTS/Amelia nee NELMES

by m p griffiths @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 12:57 (2915 days ago) @ george

? still not sure whether this is the correct Richard


In previous reply, gave you the 1871 Census with Richard ROBERTS (age 42 and now ill) - wife Amelia (age 33) and Hannah aged 2 - no other children listed, may be Richard got a reprieve? - gap in childrens baptisms between 1859 and 1864

FOD records, Baptisms at Christchurch, residence: Shortstanding

Richard John - 31 January 1864
Hannah 1867 and 1869

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Looking at Gloucestershire Gen Database

Richard ROBERTS - age 34, - 4 September 1861 - Collier, Coleford


On the 1861 Census

Richard ROBERTS - 33 Coalminer
Amelia ROBERTS - 23

Richard ROBERTS/Amelia nee NELMES

by george @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 13:30 (2915 days ago) @ m p griffiths

All very interesting. Thanks. I heard once that one of them 'turned king's evidence'. Maybe this is why the press weren't allowed in. And maybe this is what the judge alluded to.

The plot thickens! Who did what and when?

Sergeant Samuel BEARD, murdered 1861

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 29, 2012, 13:59 (2915 days ago) @ george

Hi George,
well done for spotting my deliberate mistake re the marriage of Sarah COOPER !.
In the immortal words of my hero Captain Mainwaring, I was wondering who'd spot it first....

SORRY for confusing rather than clarifying the issue !
atb from an Over-enthusiastic Amateur !

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Yes it does all makes fascinating reading, particularly as you say re Richard Roberts who, according to Sergeant Beard's statements, may not have struck first (that was definitely George Cooper) but Roberts certainly landed a telling "heavy blow on the head... I fell down". Given Beard was then lying defenceless and kicked abt the head etc, I find it incredible Roberts was dealt with at all leniently ?!

I fully understand your priorities in this search, although wrt the other participants I presume this is poor Sergeant Samuel Beard ?.

Record_ID: 19132
Entry_Number: 373
Year: 1861
Month: Aug
Day: 28
Surname: BEARD
Forenames: Samuel
Residence: Little Dean
Age_at_death: 37
Officiating_Minister: John J. Hedges
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: Text in margin illegible
Register_Reference: P110 IN 1/12
Page_No: 47
Parish_Chapel: Littledean
Soundex: B630

Does this infer he was working out of Littledean Gaol/Station at the time ?.

I cannot find a local Baptism for him, I wonder if this is him ("only" have LDS sorry) altho no sign on FoD PRs or only via LDS ?

"England and Wales Census, 1841,"
name: Samuel Beard
event: Census
event date: 1841
gender: Male
age: 19
birthplace: Gloucestershire
record type: Household
registration district: Monmouth
sub-district: Coleford
civil parish: Newland
county: Gloucestershire

"England and Wales Census, 1861,"
name: Samuel Beard
event: Census
event date: 1861
gender: Male
age: 32
relationship to head of household: Head
birthplace: Lydney, Gloucestershire
record type: Household
registration district: Monmouth
sub-district: 1 Coleford
ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
civil parish: West Dean
county: Monmouthshire

??

Interestingly most reports call him a Sergeant but witness William Guest calls him a Superintendant, presumably in error ?
So far I've been unable to find Sergeant Beard in the local Trade Directories altho' he predates most I've seen, also they only tend to name station Superintendants.

PS ah here his is
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=20718

George, I strongly suspect forum member Paul BEARD knows more and may well be worth a direct email ?

History of the Gloucestershire Constabulary

by m p griffiths @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 14:17 (2915 days ago) @ Jefff

More details on this case (and others)

on the Gloucestershire Constabulary website


http://www.gloucestershirepolicemuseum.co.uk

under heading:

Lost on Duty

History of the Gloucestershire Constabulary

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 29, 2012, 15:40 (2915 days ago) @ m p griffiths

Wow, very interesting website, thanks !

http://www.gloucestershirepolicemuseum.co.uk/page_2346438.html

This prior thread mentions it plus an apparently excellent book too.

http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=27152

--------

UPDATE 2018. The site has been revamped, the new link to Samuel Beard etc is here
http://gloucestershirepolicearchives.org.uk/content/finding-your-police-ancestors/lost-...

Tom and George

by george @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 18:16 (2915 days ago) @ Jefff

Can I just say a big 'Thank you' to everyone who has come up with all this information. It is the closest I have ever to understanding what on earth had happened in those by-gone days.

I am still puzzling over the Sergeant's meaning regarding the two sheep thieves, whom the farmer had hired him to deal with, when it is purported that he said they must have a good hiding but must die a good colour.

The other day I came across this little snippet:

'THOMAS GWILLIAM, exp., late 7115; middling
stout, 50 years of age, Sft. 4|in. high, red hair,
(scanty), blue eyes, oval visage, sallow complexion ;
is chargeji on warrant issued at York, on the 7tli
inst., with stealing a kangaroo dog, the property of
J. H. Monger. Vide Apprehensions.'


http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/14521/187802_m.pdf


and judging by the much appreciated information on this site regarding the description of prisoners it looks to me as though this one had just been released and was struggling a bit.

The newspaper reports either on here, or the one I have which I would stick on this site if I knew how-it refers to an article in the Gloucestershire Beat the newspaper of the Gloucestershire constabulary, only make me ask more questions. I will probably never get to the bottom of it all.

I was given an account of another FOD family 'disaster' by the main witness so I have that pretty straight in my head.

So be thay dyead or be thay alive? (In the last few decades of the 19th century that is). One thing for certain is that our Tommy and our George weren't in France.

This is a great site by the way.

Thomas GWILLIAM - 7115

by m p griffiths @, Monday, October 29, 2012, 18:33 (2915 days ago) @ george

If you look at the Number Thomas GWILLIAM was given 7115 on the Clyde - this was the number quoted in the Newspaper Article i.e. Late 7115


George COOPER - Ref. No: 7048
Thomas COOPER - Ref. No. 7049


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