Sites of paupers graves (Parish Records)

by lee.blewitt, Monday, June 02, 2014, 14:17 (2060 days ago)

Hi

I have been trying to track down the burial site of my Grandmothers sister.
Her sister Catherine Louise Williams was born in Mar 1921 and died in Mar 1926.
Several other websites have been used to track down the Birth and Death details.

On the transcription for the death, it has the District as Westbury on Severn.

We are certain of the date of death as this has been verified on several occasions.
The problem is I cannot find any trace of a burial site. The parish records have been searched on this site, and I have toured the graveyard at Westbury.

My Grandmothers option is that as they were poor, (as were many in that time), that Catherine (Kathleen on Death Certificate) may have been put into a paupers grave.

If anyone could shed some light on this, whether information on possible burial sites, or other options into finding a lead on where she may have been buried, it would be appreciated.

Kind Regards
Lee

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 03, 2014, 01:59 (2059 days ago) @ lee.blewitt

Hi Lee, welcome to the forum.

I've searched this site's PRs, the GlosBMD and FreeBMD sites for your records, I presume that you may have already searched these databases, if not please do.

Am I correct that this is the Birth you refer to, from FreeBMD

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
Williams Catherine L Woollen Gloucester 6a 595

I'm surprised I've not found it on GlosBMD !?. Have you searched there ? http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MainMenu.aspx

Similarly I cannot find a Baptism within this site's FoD PRs, possibly as the Forest is technically not within the Gloucester Registration District. I have tried searching the various spellings such as Catherine, Katherine and Kathleen. Nor can I find a Burial Record within the FoD PRs.


Similarly I presume this is the Death Record to which you refer, from FreeBMD ?

Deaths Jun 1926 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
Williams Kathleen L 5 Westbury S. 6a 294

As you say this does seem to fit wrt the age etc.

Sadly, however, you should realise this Record relates to a Death that was Registered within the Westbury on Severn Registration District. This link from the FreeBMD site clarifies. http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/westbury%20on%20severn.html

As I understand it even IF Kathleen was buried within the Westbury District, her Burial could have taken place anywhere within the District and not just Westbury village itself. As you can see Westbury District covers the whole eastern half of the Forest including the 18 Parishes mentioned, Cinderford for example has more than one cemetery.

Do you know whereabouts she lived her far-too-short life, not within Gloucester presumably (where her birth was registered) ?.
When you searched Westbury cemetery, did you include the newer additional area a short walk from the Church itself ?.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=38883

Finally for now, have you contacted the FoD Council to enquire ?. Sadly their website database is still offline, but they should still be able to advise you whether Catherine is buried at one of their two Cemeteries. That said, I don't think those have been in use since as long ago as 1926 ??
http://www.fdean.gov.uk/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=6707&tt=graphic

I hope this helps, if you can add any more background we can hopefully take it further tomorrow.


UPDATE ref FoD Council Municipal Cemeteries, Mile End and Cinderford.
I've just found this old website describing the beautifull Yew Tree Brake Cemetery at Cinderford. Judging by my past searches of the Council website, I thought it had been in use since the 1960s or so, and this site confirms this and states it opened in 1957.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/domesday/dblock/GB-360000-210000/page/10


"To meet a shortage of burial places within the Forest the East Dean rural district council opened a cemetery on the road from Cinderford to the Speech House in 1956 and the West Dean district council a cemetery at Mile End for an area covering Milkwall, Berry Hill, and Lydbrook in 1967."

From: 'Forest of Dean: Local government and public services', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 5: Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996), pp. 377-381.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=23269
Date accessed: 17 June 2014.

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Paul Andrews @, Shropshire, England, Tuesday, June 03, 2014, 10:37 (2059 days ago) @ Jefff

"Am I correct that this is the Birth you refer to, from FreeBMD

Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
Williams Catherine L Woollen Gloucester 6a 595

I'm surprised I've not found it on GlosBMD !?. Have you searched there ?
"

The Gloucestershire BMD indexes is still work in progress. The most recent recorded birth in one the Gloucester District offices is in 1914 at Redmarley.

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 03, 2014, 13:03 (2059 days ago) @ Paul Andrews

Ah, that would explain it then Paul, I hadn't realised abt the GlosBMD status, thanks very much for that.

I'm not trying to be picky at all, but your comment abt Redmarley confuses me, for the sake of this enquiry ref births in "Gloucester District" c1920s please can you clarify ?. I thought the nearest the Gloucester District got to the Forest area in the 1920s was Maisemore, admittedly not far from Westbury on Severn ?.
But Redmarley ?; I thought that it came under Worcestershire until 1931, then "Newent District" in Glos until 1937 and the newly formed "Gloucester Rural" District. Only in 1974 did Marley come under "Gloucester" District.

I think ??!!

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/newent.html
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/gloucester%20rural.html

I'm asking purely as I don't want to inadvertantly mislead wrt this thread's original enquiry.

atb Jeff

Gloucestershire BMD Indexes

by shepway @, Tuesday, June 03, 2014, 19:27 (2059 days ago) @ Jefff

As Paul has already indicated the Gloucestershire BMD Indexes are work in progress and to help users of this forum I strongly recommend that the following 2 pages which has links to them on the Glos BMD Home Page are accessed to establish details of Registers that have been transcribed to date.

About the Indexes: http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/About.aspx
Index coverage: http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/Progress.aspx

Mike

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 03, 2014, 23:50 (2058 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi again Lee,

Using FreeBMD I find the following births, the only ones on that whole website to Williams/Woollen. Am I correct in assuming they could all be the same family, hopefully your Grandmother's, it looks possible ?

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
-----------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1917 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
WILLIAMS Joyce Woollen Taunton 5c 413

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Edwin C Woollen Gloucester 6a 638

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Catherine L Woollen Gloucester 6a 595

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1923 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Doreen A Woollen Westbury S. 6a 487

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1926 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Kenneth A G Woollen Westbury S. 6a 434

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1930 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Betty L Woollen Westbury S. 6a 393

I've searched this FoD site's PRs and cannot seem to find any of the above people. Similar searching of GlosBMD only gives these Marriages which seem likely to be correct given the name & initials.
Please, do they know or think if they're correct ?

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
NEAL Kenneth B J WILLIAMS Betty L Stroud Selsley All Saints 1954 C35/1 383

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
WILLIAMS Kenneth Albert George MATTHEWS Jean Dilke Forest of Dean Forest of Dean Register Office 1955 18 150

From GlosBMD the only Williams/Woollen marriage I can find is this one, which seems a reasonable fit, is this your great grandparents' Marriage ?

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
WILLIAMS Oswald WOOLLEN Lillian Florence Gloucester Gloucester Register Office 1918 29 200

From which GlosBMD gives the following Births

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WILLIAMS Oswald WILLIAMS WILLIAMS ELLIOTT 1895 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, East Dean 2 494

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WOOLLEN Lilian Florence WOOLLEN WOOLLEN HAMBLIN 1899 Gloucester Gloucester, St John the Baptist 29 377

Again searching the FoD PRs gives these Burials which seem to fit perfectly;

Record_ID: 1009398
Entry_Number: 1432
Year: 1959
Month: Sep
Day: 24
Surname: WILLIAMS
Forenames: Oswald
Residence: Ivy Cottages Morse Road
Age_at_death: 64
Officiating_Minister: W Barber (Vicar)
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: 0
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/38
Page_No: 179
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: W452

Record_ID: 1005481
Entry_Number: 490
Year: 1975
Month: Oct
Day: 13
Surname: WILLIAMS
Forenames: Lilian Florence
Residence: 21a St Whites Road Cinderford
Age_at_death: 76
Officiating_Minister: Geoffrey Crago
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/31
Page_No: 62
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: W452


As I'm sure you realise my purpose for this search is to try and place the family geographically over time, in case there are clues as to where Catherine may be buried. I suspect you may have done the same. Please can you advise whether we're on the right tracks with this, thankyou.

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by HarryBrook @, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 08:04 (2058 days ago) @ Jefff

Lee,
Reading your post carefully, you say Catherine is given as Kathleen on the death certificate. This would seem to indicate that you have, or have seen, the actual death certificate not just the BMD index for the death. The certificate gives the address/place of death and, therefore, a clue to the possible place of burial.

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by lee.blewitt, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 17:38 (2058 days ago) @ HarryBrook

Hi Harry,

My grandmother has a copy of the certificate and has provided this information.


The death certificate gives the details for the death on the 18th April 1926, and the place as Collafield, East Dean.

Kind Regards
Lee

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by lee.blewitt, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 17:33 (2058 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

I have looked through the information you posted, and have spoken to my Grandmother.

The following are the parents of my Grandmother,

Record_ID: 1009398
Entry_Number: 1432
Year: 1959
Month: Sep
Day: 24
Surname: WILLIAMS
Forenames: Oswald
Residence: Ivy Cottages Morse Road
Age_at_death: 64
Officiating_Minister: W Barber (Vicar)
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: 0
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/38
Page_No: 179
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: W452

Record_ID: 1005481
Entry_Number: 490
Year: 1975
Month: Oct
Day: 13
Surname: WILLIAMS
Forenames: Lilian Florence
Residence: 21a St Whites Road Cinderford
Age_at_death: 76
Officiating_Minister: Geoffrey Crago
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/31
Page_No: 62
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: W452

And the following are her siblings,

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Edwin C Woollen Gloucester 6a 638

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Catherine L Woollen Gloucester 6a 595

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1923 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Doreen A Woollen Westbury S. 6a 487

-----------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1926 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
Williams Kenneth A G Woollen Westbury S. 6a 434

This is the correct track, and all information above and from talking to my Grandmother seems to match up.

The family have looked into this in the past, but have always failed to get any answer as to where Catherine/Kathleen was buried. This is the main reason for thinking it is an unmarked grave, as there seems to be records around at the time for all of the churches we have looked at, but just not any details for Catherine.

After reading the article about Abenhall http://www.forest-of-dean.net/index.php/component/content/article/13-memorial-inscripti... I do think this could be plausible as Collafield would not have been too far away. What are your thoughts on this?
I am not sure if any further information could be found on the graves?


Regards
Lee

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 17:40 (2058 days ago) @ lee.blewitt

Hi Lee, thanks for confirming we're on the right track. However I'm a little baffled as to why you now mention Collafield, I cannot see any mention of it within the Abenhall link. Please can you enlarge on this ?.
Also, in the past did you contact the Council as per my earlier suggestion, if not do you intend doing so ?

Thanks, Jeff.

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by lee.blewitt, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 18:23 (2058 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

Sorry if I am confusing things.

Collafield was where the family lived when Catherine died. The Family then later moved to Ivy Cottage as per the information you found.

The reason I mentioned Abenhall was purely from reading the document I put the link in for. As it mentioned Infant graves I though it may be possible.

I understand that there is no information to support this, and she could just as easily be in any other grave around the parish.

As of yet I have not contacted the council, but will try to do this tomorrow. I have left a message with Littledean parish to see if they have any information, and have been in touch with the Rev at Drybrook who is looking through the church records.

Many thanks
Lee

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by shepway @, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 17:57 (2058 days ago) @ lee.blewitt

Collafield is given as place of death in the death certificate and the nearest churches are Littledean, Abenhall, Cinderford, St Stephen and Cinderford St Johns. The burial records for 3 of the 4 churches have been transcribed and on this site and she is not listed so is not likely to have been buried there. It would appear that Cinderford, St Stephen does not have a burial ground.
As her mother was from Gloucester and her birth registration indicates she was from Parish of St John the Baptist I would not rule that church out as a possible place for burial.

Mike

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 18:53 (2058 days ago) @ shepway

Hi Mike and Lee,
yes Mike I now see that she died in Collafield, unfortunately that information was not posted until now, the only clue I knew of was "Westbury District" hence my earlier posts to that effect.
Similarly I'm sorry but I cannot see how you know that Catherine, or perhaps her mother (not certain but think you mean Catherine), was baptised in St John Parish Cinderford ?. Sorry if I've missed it, but after rechecking this thread and a few websites I cannot find this important info, I'd be very pleased if you could help me realise how I've missed this, thanks.

Yes as you say I don't think there are many, if indeed any, burials at Cinderford St Stephen. I say this as I've visited it many times since childhood, it being our family Church, and I do have dim recollections of there being a few headstones on the verge to the front of the Church when I was a small child. I wondered if these were past Vicars perhaps, altho on reflection maybe they were purely stone memorials rather than burial headstones ?.

Thanks for your assistance in my understanding of this search, Jeff

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by shepway @, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 19:06 (2058 days ago) @ Jefff

I should have made it more clear - Catherine's mother was born in the parish of St John the Baptist, Gloucester. This is the entry from the GlosBMD site:
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WOOLLEN Lilian Florence WOOLLEN WOOLLEN HAMBLIN 1899 Gloucester Gloucester, St John the Baptist 29 377

Hopefully when the Parish Registers appear on Ancestry later this year all will be revealed.

Mike

Burial for Catherine Louise WILLIAMS, 1921 - 1926 ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, June 04, 2014, 19:35 (2058 days ago) @ shepway

Cheers Mike for clarifying that.
Yes I should have tried further down the Woollen route, but unfortunately last night's researches were rudely interrupted by an oik stealing a large old birdbath from the neighbours front garden just across the street from my study window, I gave chase but his unlit getaway van was faster than my feet !!.
Sorry for not spotting that info within MY own post... I'm afraid this afternoon I've been thinking abt a new post abt St John the Baptist CINDERFORD so also mistook your earlier St John mention for Cinderford again.
Thanks.

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