Baptism Jane HOLDER possibly Taynton - 1791 ish

Hi,

I have been researching my family tree since 1997. This is my first post on this forum and I have searched the Parish records many times and browsed the forum a few times too - great site!

My ancestor Jane HOLDER married John PROBERT 22.1.1810 St Mary de Lode, Gloucester.

They are on the 1851 census at Linfield Cottage, Preston, Gloucestershire. John PROBERT and their son Richard are enumerated as being born at Preston. However, Jane is enumerated on the same census as born about 1787 at Mathon, Worcestershire.

I have looked at the Forest of Dean Parish Records and wonder if Jane Holder may have been baptised at Taynton despite being born at Mathon? Perhaps they wanted to have her baptised in the family parish church? I am aware that a lot of HOLDER folk were at/from Taynton.

In the FoD PRs I found Jane HOLDER baptised 6.2.1791 Taynton dau of James and Sarah HOLDER.

Subsequently found a marriage of said James HOLDER to Sarah HOLDER 23.4.1782 Hartpury.

Record_ID: 38791

Grooms_Residence: Bosbury County & Diocese of Hereford

The fact that this James was from Bosbury but married at Hartpury, gives weight to my theory that perhaps he worked away and came back with his family to his wife’s parish for their daughter Jane to be baptised. (I couldn’t find a Sarah HOLDER baptised at Hartpury c.1760 and I’m not certain that she was from Taynton either).

I found a death for a James Holder 1841 Newent, which may or may not be him and it was just prior to the census.

Is anyone else researching the same family? Jane may have had a sister Elizabeth 1785 Hartpury.

This family is doing my head in!

TIA
Aussie

A few of the other names I am researching: BEARD - Arlingham, BRINKWORTH - Leonard Stanley, CARTER - Fretherne/Arlingham, MALPASS - Cam, WORKMAN - Fretherne.

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re: Jane HOLDER and John PROBERT

1841 Census St Catherine

WILKES

Samuel - 50-54 all born Gloucestershire
Maria - 50-54
Alfred - 9
Albert - 7
Edwin PROBERT - 10 born Gloucestershire

Glos Baptism Index CD

Edwin PROBERT christened at Glos St John - 5 September 1830 - parents: James (Cordwainer) & Mary Anne

---

Looking at the Glos Baptism Index from 1813 there is a

Thomas HOLDER (Pinmaker) and Hannah - having a children Sarah baptised at Glos St Catherine - 19 March 1815

Have you tried cross-checking the other HOLDER marriages around that time, especially at St Mary de Lobe and look at the census to see if you can find where they state place of birth and names given to their children e.g.

Maria HOLDER married Samuel (pin maker) WILKS/WILKES at St Mary de Lobe - 15 December 1807

and had the following children

Ann - 26 December 1811 - St Catherine Glos
William - 24 March 1813 - ditto
William - 6 May 1814 - ditto
Edwin - 12 March 1819 - ditto
Harriet - 5 December 1821 - ditto
Charles - 29 Dcember 1823 - ditto
Charles - 18 January 1824 - ditto
Maria - 22 May 1826 - Glos St Mary de Lobe
Samuel - 31 August 1828 - St Catherine
Alfred - 3 February 1832 - St Catherine
Albert - 12 October 1834 - St Catherine
?
Frances - 3 July 1821 - Samuel (labourer) & Maria - Avening Holy Cross

Look for family names as Jane & John -

Maria - 1811
Joseph - 1815
William - 1817
Ambrose - 1819
Richard - 1821
John - 1823
Samuel - 1824
Phoebe - 1825

---

Sarah HOLDER of St Catherine married William VINER at St Mary de Lobe 4 December 1814

and a daughter Sarah was christened at St Catherine - 16 September 1815 - William was also a Pinmaker

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Hi MPGriffiths,

Thanks for your reply. No I haven't crossed checked other marriages and children because in my opinion doing so doesn't really prove anything... there were lots of HOLDER folk so there's likely to be lots of HOLDER families in almost every village surrounding Hartpury, where my ancestor Sarah PROBERT was born abt 1813, although her brother Richard was born at Preston. So there could be more than one family with parents Sarah & John Holder. And if Jane wasn't baptised at Taynton then I've no idea who her parents were. Mathon being in 3 counties makes it difficult too. I can't find a baptism for her on FMP nor on FamilySearch.

I do try to cross check other data for less common names, sometimes it works. Trying to ascertain events for common names pre census and pre registration is like looking for a needle in a haystack!

My ancestors are definitely John Probert = Sarah HOLDER as mentioned before. :)

Have you tried cross-checking the other HOLDER marriages around that time, especially at St Mary de Lobe and look at the census to see if you can find where they state place of birth and names given to their children e.g.

Maria HOLDER married Samuel (pin maker) WILKS/WILKES at St Mary de Lobe - 15 December 1807

and had the following children

Ann - 26 December 1811 - St Catherine Glos
William - 24 March 1813 - ditto
William - 6 May 1814 - ditto
Edwin - 12 March 1819 - ditto
Harriet - 5 December 1821 - ditto
Charles - 29 Dcember 1823 - ditto
Charles - 18 January 1824 - ditto
Maria - 22 May 1826 - Glos St Mary de Lobe
Samuel - 31 August 1828 - St Catherine
Alfred - 3 February 1832 - St Catherine
Albert - 12 October 1834 - St Catherine
?
Frances - 3 July 1821 - Samuel (labourer) & Maria - Avening Holy Cross

--

Look for family names as Jane & John -

Maria - 1811
Joseph - 1815
William - 1817
Ambrose - 1819
Richard - 1821
John - 1823
Samuel - 1824
Phoebe - 1825

---

Sarah HOLDER of St Catherine married William VINER at St Mary de Lobe 4 December 1814

and a daughter Sarah was christened at St Catherine - 16 September 1815 - William was also a Pinmaker

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In order to get my bearings on this one would this be the family of John and Jane PROBERT? (Combination of this site, FamilySearch and Ancestry)

Parents John PROBERT and Jane

Maria, baptised 07/04/1811, Hartpury
Sarah, 07/11/1813, Hartpury [FamilySearch – not on FODFHT]
Joseph, 03/12/1815, Preston
William, 28/04/1817, Preston
Ambrose, 18/04/1819, Preston
John, 19/01/1821, Preston
Richard, 04/11/1821, Much Marcle
Samuel, 13/06/1824, Preston
Phoebe, 02/10/1825, Preston

And then, if James HOLDER moved around, another possible family?

Parents James HOLDER and Sarah

Thomas, baptised 14/09/1783, Bosbury
Elizabeth, 22/05/1785, Hartpury
James, 11/05/1788, Huntley [residence Harpury –sic}
Jane, 06/02/1791, Taynton [residence Hartpury]

It’s a bit speculative, I know, but seems to link the relevant places. However, just to confound things a bit,

Record_ID: 110873
Entry_Number:
Year: 1794
Month: Nov
Day: 5
Surname: HOLDER
Forenames: Jane
Residence: of this parish
Age_at_death:
Officiating_Minister: W[illia]m Beale Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P165 IN 1/3
Page_No: 3
Parish_Chapel: Hartpury

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G'day Mike,

Wow! Thank you so much for all this info - yes, I think you are definitely on the track with the PROBERT family. I found Maria and Sarah on the 1841 census and Richard on the 1851 census, hadn't looked for other children yet. Richard might have been named after his grandfather. :)

You might also be on the right track with the HOLDER family. I'm not put off by the burial - seems likely to be an adult, perhaps and Aunt, Grandmother etc? For a comparison, I've just viewed some of the other Hartpury burials and this one
Record_ID: 110781 says son of Robert & Elizabeth HOLDER

So I'm sure they wouldn't give the Residence - 'of this parish' - if that burial for Jane HOLDER in 1794 was an infant/child... hope I'm on the right track!

Cheers,
Aussie :D

In order to get my bearings on this one would this be the family of John and Jane PROBERT? (Combination of this site, FamilySearch and Ancestry)

Parents John PROBERT and Jane

Maria, baptised 07/04/1811, Hartpury
Sarah, 07/11/1813, Hartpury [FamilySearch – not on FODFHT]
Joseph, 03/12/1815, Preston
William, 28/04/1817, Preston
Ambrose, 18/04/1819, Preston
John, 19/01/1821, Preston
Richard, 04/11/1821, Much Marcle
Samuel, 13/06/1824, Preston
Phoebe, 02/10/1825, Preston

And then, if James HOLDER moved around, another possible family?

Parents James HOLDER and Sarah

Thomas, baptised 14/09/1783, Bosbury
Elizabeth, 22/05/1785, Hartpury
James, 11/05/1788, Huntley [residence Harpury –sic}
Jane, 06/02/1791, Taynton [residence Hartpury]

It’s a bit speculative, I know, but seems to link the relevant places. However, just to confound things a bit,

Record_ID: 110873
Entry_Number:
Year: 1794
Month: Nov
Day: 5
Surname: HOLDER
Forenames: Jane
Residence: of this parish
Age_at_death:
Officiating_Minister: W[illia]m Beale Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P165 IN 1/3
Page_No: 3
Parish_Chapel: Hartpury

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Mike, we're definitely on the right track! James HOLDER, probably knew his daughter's outlaws side of the family from before she was even born.

Just found this transcription on FMP, pasted here for anyone else researching this family but if that's not ok with Admin people, please let me know. Sorry about the formatting being lost.

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription
First name(s)
Last name
Name note
Marriage year
Marriage date
Marriage place
Father's first name(s)
Father's last name
Mother's first name(s)
Mother's last name
Spouse's first name(s) Spouse's last name
Spouse's father's first name(s) Spouse's father's last name Spouse's mother's first name(s) Spouse's mother's last name Residence
Place
County
Country
Record set
Category
Subcategory
Collections from
Index (c) IRI. Used by permission of FamilySearch Intl
Richard
Probert
-
1776
1776
Bosbury, Hereford, England -
-
-
-
Sarah Hosfield -
-
-
-
Bosbury, Herefordshire, England Bosbury
Herefordshire
England
England Marriages 1538-1973
Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Marriages & divorces
Great Britain

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If you are interested in HOLDERs in Bosbury you may want to look as this site,

http://www.bosburyhistoryresource.org.uk/

I've not explored it in any detail but there are certainly HOLDER references there in the parish records.

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Mike, Thank you so very much for the link, that's a wonderful site and I found quite a few new ancestors and added them to our tree. I'm over the moon!

I've also found a few at Ledbury in the PR's on this FoD website. Twice as happy!

Kind regards,
Aussie

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5677 views

Picking up on the comment that the baptism of Sarah is not FODFHT we have checked and find it under the Surname of ROBERTS. The entry has therefore been checked against the image and we find it is entered as PROBERTS. The database has therefore been updated accordingly.

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Hi Admin,

Oh My Goodness! Thank you so very much! I had wondered if they were HOLDER cousins, now it seems they are PROBERT(S) cousins... I'm gobsmacked! I'm so glad this is not a terribly common surname.

Cheers,
Aussie

Picking up on the comment that the baptism of Sarah is not FODFHT we have checked and find it under the Surname of ROBERTS. The entry has therefore been checked against the image and we find it is entered as PROBERTS. The database has therefore been updated accordingly.

Post reply

5745 views

Hi Admin,

Can you please confirm or update the people in this marriage?

Record_ID: 38791

Are they definitely James HOLDER married Sarah HOLDER or is her surname incorrect?

Regards,
Aussie

Post reply

5644 views

Thanks again for all of your help. I was quite ill in 2015, and was a tad overwhelmed with replies to my post. Thankfully, these details are still here and my health is improving, somewhat.

The family with Ambrose and Samuel are ours. Their sister, Sarah, wasn't with them because she was married before the 1841 census.

There's too many Holder's to cross check them all. However, I have made a bit of progress with our Probert & Holder ancestors.

Cheers,
Aussie

re: Jane HOLDER and John PROBERT

1841 Census St Catherine

WILKES

Samuel - 50-54 all born Gloucestershire
Maria - 50-54
Alfred - 9
Albert - 7
Edwin PROBERT - 10 born Gloucestershire

Glos Baptism Index CD

Edwin PROBERT christened at Glos St John - 5 September 1830 - parents: James (Cordwainer) & Mary Anne

---

Looking at the Glos Baptism Index from 1813 there is a

Thomas HOLDER (Pinmaker) and Hannah - having a children Sarah baptised at Glos St Catherine - 19 March 1815

Have you tried cross-checking the other HOLDER marriages around that time, especially at St Mary de Lobe and look at the census to see if you can find where they state place of birth and names given to their children e.g.

Maria HOLDER married Samuel (pin maker) WILKS/WILKES at St Mary de Lobe - 15 December 1807

and had the following children

Ann - 26 December 1811 - St Catherine Glos
William - 24 March 1813 - ditto
William - 6 May 1814 - ditto
Edwin - 12 March 1819 - ditto
Harriet - 5 December 1821 - ditto
Charles - 29 Dcember 1823 - ditto
Charles - 18 January 1824 - ditto
Maria - 22 May 1826 - Glos St Mary de Lobe
Samuel - 31 August 1828 - St Catherine
Alfred - 3 February 1832 - St Catherine
Albert - 12 October 1834 - St Catherine
?
Frances - 3 July 1821 - Samuel (labourer) & Maria - Avening Holy Cross

--

Look for family names as Jane & John -

Maria - 1811
Joseph - 1815
William - 1817
Ambrose - 1819
Richard - 1821
John - 1823
Samuel - 1824
Phoebe - 1825

---

Sarah HOLDER of St Catherine married William VINER at St Mary de Lobe 4 December 1814

and a daughter Sarah was christened at St Catherine - 16 September 1815 - William was also a Pinmaker

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Baptism Jane HOLDER possibly Taynton - 1791 ish (Parish Records)

HOLDER/PROBERT/WILKES