Burials in unconsecrated ground etc. (Parish Records)

by Brenda Hughes, Friday, October 06, 2017, 23:45 (66 days ago)

I have done extensive research back to the 15th century on our family in the Forest of Dean but there is one last thing I would like to do and that is to locate the death and/or burial details of my great grandfather Richard Elley, DoB 1812. I am having one last try. Our branch of the Elley family originated in the Newland area. Would there be any likelihood of a burial being registered or recorded anywhere if the person is buried in unconsecrated ground or even in the ? burial path which I believe ran outside the cemetery ?

Richard ELLEY/Previous thread

by MPGriffiths @, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 11:10 (64 days ago) @ Brenda Hughes

Background info

(there is a previous thread: 18 February 2008 re: Edwin KNIGHT- Ruardean)

---

Richard was christened : 18 October 1812 - parents: Richard & Mary

He is on the 1861 census with his mother and son Richard ELLEY

ELLEY

Mary - 87
Richard - 46 - Coal Miner - born Newland
Elizabeth KILBY - daughter - 35
Richard ELLEY - 21 - Grandson, Coal Miner, born Newland **
Jane KILBY - 18
John KILBY - 14
Thomas KILBY 11


** when either Son/daughters married was Richard their father given as 'deceased'

---


1871 Census, West Dean, Drybrook

ELLEY

Richard - 52 - all born Newland
Emma - 36 (one tree on Ancestry states: no marriage has been found)
Thos - 11
Ellen - 7
Anne - 11 months

---


1881 Census

8 Staunton Road, Newland

ELLEY

Richard 67 - born Berryhill, Glos (Iron Miner)
Emma - 41 wife - born Berryhill
Anne - 11 - born Newland
Milson - 8 - born West Dean
Albert - 5 - born Newland
George - 2 - born Newland


1891 Census, Glamorgan, Llantwifardne

Emma ELLEY - aged 46 - WIFE
Milson - 20
Albert - 16
George - 13
Thomas POWELL - Grandson aged 6 - born Mon

Richard ELLEY

by MPGriffiths @, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 11:55 (64 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

In 1846 - on Ancestry: (Prisoners confined in the House of Correction at Littledean)

Richard ELLEY (the younger) aged 32 - was sentenced for 1 calender month hard labour for not maintaining his wife and family

Richard ELLEY

by MPGriffiths @, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 12:17 (64 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

1846


Richard ELLEY (the younger) of Berry Hill, (Collier)

Aged 32 : 5 foot 6 inches and a quarter

Dark Brown hair, Hazel eyes - face long - complexion pale. Marks of cuts on face and forehead from coal.
For deserting his wife and family and refusing to maintain them at the Township of West Dean 1 day April.
This Prisoner has a wife and 3 children of good character also a father and mother who attend the Chapelry daily - he states he is a Soba? man and attends this Chapel.

Richard ELLEY b1812, Berry Hill, West Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 18:08 (64 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Hi M,
Richard Elley b1812 is my brother-in-law's G-G-Grandfather on his mother's side. Thanks very much for posting these interesting articles, and also for confirming some of the amateur research I did on the ELLEY family after first discovering this marvelous site & forum c2010. At that time I didn't have access to any of the subscription sites so my work was rather limited, plus it was a little off-putting when I saw just how many Richard Elleys there were thro' the line, which probably explains why I've avoided returning to that tree until now. So thanks again for restarting my interest. I'm just sorry I hadn't spotted this thread when Brenda first posted, as I might have saved you some time with the Census research.
As well as a link to the prior thread you found, into the Knight hence KILBY family, I can add some more prior threads for ELLEY.

John, possible brother of Richard ? http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=2022
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=19749
Mention in this post of Richard Edward Elley b1903, d1910. http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=46795

and KILBY
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=9791
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=31421

I see that this prior thread was also written by Brenda Hughes.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=29864
It helps clarify some of the points she's raised again this weekend, altho regrettably this post is now being finished at 9pm so it's after Brenda has kindly posted her own reply on this new thread to your goodself.

Sorry I've been late to post today, Jeff.

Richard ELLEY b1812, Berry Hil, West Deanl.

by Brenda Hughes, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 19:58 (64 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jefff, you are right about the many Richards' in the Elley family. They went on until my father's generation - his half brother was I believe, the last Richard. My grandfather was Albert Elley and he was one of the children of Richard's (born 1812) second marriage. It was the mix up in the many 'Richards' that started my on my ancestry hobby over 30 years ago. I initially paid quite a lot of money to a company to do it for me only to find they had it wrong. With the help of the Archivist at Gloucester CC and the various census results I was able to piece it all together but every little added bit is still very interesting. As I stated previously - there was a considerably age difference between Richard and his second 'wife' Emma. The same thing happened with my grandfather Albert who lost his first wife and went on to marry my grandmother who was quite a lot younger than he was. History repeating itself in a way. I am on the Genes Reunited website if you would like to see my family tree re. the Elley's there.

Richard ELLEY b1812, Berry Hill, West Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 20:58 (64 days ago) @ Brenda Hughes

Hi Brenda,
thanks for that. Re my post, I'm afraid due to my own mistake it was meant to have been posted earlier today and so before you came back online, and to cap that I only posted half of what was intended, I've just finished adding some more links to prior related threads, but for ease of your reading I'll add the rest of my input on a separate post later. I'm afraid I'm not on the Genes Reunited site, altho' I may possibly get back to you via this forum if I get any particularly tricky queries. I must say how impressed I am that you were doing your research on this tricky line in the years before it got "easy" with internet coverage etc.
I'm just today revisiting my brother-in-law's rather sparse tree and filling in the MANY gaps (not helped by my old researches, incuding many newspaper articles, being unavailable to me at the mo). My Brither-in-law's mother was Olive May ELLEY, her mother Mary Ann Elley (also a lot of Marys in this tree !) married an ALBERT Hale at Christchurch in 1906. I think my Mary Ann ELLEY was born Berry Hill area c1884 to Mary Ann Jenkins of Varteg nr Pontypool who is the Widow WILLIAMS who married Richard Elley "Junior" in 1864, her first husband John Williams was buried at Christchurch aged 23 a few weeks after the 1861 census. Least I think that's how it is, these are far from unusual names, and currently I'm relying on free access sites eg FamilySearch. As you say, SO many second marriages in these mining families, shows just how dangerous it was for the men underground.
atb Jeff

Richard ELLEY b1812, Berry Hill, West Dean.

by Brenda Hughes, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 22:49 (64 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jefff,
I don't know if you are like me but my interest and enthusiasm waxes and wanes on a regular basis. At the moment I am full on again but rarely get anything new now. What has frustrated me for years is the death of my great grandfather Richard (dob 1812) although I was told that he could have gone into the burial path alongside one of the cemeteries. I imagine that having a fairly young family at his age there would have been little money for a proper burial etc. so perhaps I will never know.
I have a fair number of Elley wills including one dated 13th Oct. 1854 and also a few entries from Bishop's transcripts, all via the courtesy of the archivist (fee paid of course). I also have quite a file of BMD certificates but not only of the Elley ancestors but all the rest of my family names as well. If I can help I will so let me know. This site has also given me quite a bit of excellent info. over the years. Cheers

Richard ELLEY b1812, Berry Hil, West Deanl.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 21:18 (64 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi again M,
I should have posted these links etc as part of the post above, which should have been finished before Brenda's reply, but due to my own errors it was delayed, so I couldn't help you as much as I'd hoped, sorry bout that.

Here are the other prior threads I'd found re RIchard ELLEY and tree;

John, possible brother of Richard ? http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=2022
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=19749

Mention in this post of Richard Edward Elley b1903, d1910. http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=46795

I see that this prior thread was also written by Brenda Hughes.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=29864

It helps clarify some of the points she's raised again this weekend, altho regrettably this post is now being finished at 9pm so it's after Brenda has kindly posted her own reply on this new thread to your goodself.

Sorry I've been late to post today, Jeff.

Richard ELLEY/Previous thread

by Brenda Hughes, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 18:37 (64 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

My great grandfather Richard Elley was married to Elizabeth Davies in 1838. They never divorced but did separate after having two sons - Richard and John, and two daughters Eliza and Mary. John died in 1854 age 13, after a fall of iron ore at his fathers mine. Richard Senior met widow Emma Worgan, and set up home with her and her children who took the name Elley. They had a further four children, one of whom was my grandfather Albert Elley. According to the census's from 1851 onwards Elizabeth Elley lived as the head of the household, with her daughter/s. She was entered as a widow in the 1891 census. Emma and her children were by then living in the Pontypridd area. There is no evidence of a marriage between Richard and Emma. The Gloucester CC Archivist explained that there must have been something wrong in their relationship in that Richard and Elizabeth did not divorce but local people accepted that he was living out of wedlock with Emma. I have estimated re. the info. from the census's etc. that Richard would have died between 1881 and 1891. He was considerably older than Emma.

Burials in unconsecrated ground etc, prior threads.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, October 08, 2017, 21:45 (64 days ago) @ Brenda Hughes

Hi Brenda,
regarding "Burials in unconsecrated ground", I have searched the forum to see if this query has been asked before, and found the following prior threads. I now belatedly realise you've been on the forum for several years now, so I suspect you've already seen them, especially as they seem especially relevant to the Coleford area (Christchurch chapel) where Richard and his family lived. Even so, in the hope it helps you or others, I'll list them here.

http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=15955
http://forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=21578
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=46249
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=37972

By the way, I've spent some while today searching all the websites I can for a death/burial record for Richard b1812. As you know it seems he died sometime twixt the 1881 and 1891 census. However, and despite searching all across our local area and a bit father afield into Monmouthshire, and by using several spelling variations for ELLEY, so far I've not found him but will keep trying as he's on one of my trees.

Finally for now Brenda, I see from the 1901 Census that Emma's son Milson Elley and his family lived at Graig Terrace in Pontypridd. I lived "up the Graig" for a few months in 1981 while studying engineering at the nearby Polytechnic of Wales, and then a few yards away at Woodland Terrace, overlooking what had been the Maritime Colliery. Despite knowing of that area's mining history (and studying at what had been a mining school), at the time I never dreamt I'd be revisiting the area following the trails of my ancestors. In those days the land where the colliery had stood was just waste ground, without any of the landscaping that's taken place since, yet it was still hard to think of an important pit being there and all the associated activity. Only last week I was studying old maps & photos of the area, and amazed just how busy it was "just" 80 years before I was there, so chock-full of mines and railways etc, most interesting. It seems that there were and still are several cases of Cinderford and Pontypridd families being linked by miners, I wonder if there were agents for the Ponty mines actively seeking miners from the Forest, or was it just word-of-mouth between the families and maybe mine owners, I need to dig deeper methinks. Or perhaps more likely, such links were common across all the South Wales coalfields at that time. Then again, as this interesting article shows, some of South Wales's worst mining disasters were in the Ponty area, an area particularly easy & cheap to access by rail in those days, so maybe these factors point to just how many miners were employed there, hence so many links to the Forest of Dean.
http://daibach-welldigger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/revival-meetings-in-coal-mines-in.html

You can zoom right into this highly detailed 1914 O.S. map of Pontypridd, and more from other years off the great NLS website
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102342529

And also these aerial photos at base of this page, keep clicking on one and it will then keep enlarging.
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/33597/details/maritime-colliery-coke-works-pontypridd

Both of these links are best viewed when opened into a new tab or window.

atb Jeff.

Burials in unconsecrated ground etc, prior threads.

by Brenda Hughes, Monday, October 09, 2017, 18:12 (63 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,
I am a Pontypridd girl (getting on a bit now though). All our family are still in the Graig, Treforest and Rhydyfelin areas - we moved away almost 40 years ago but visit regularly. We have lived in the Carmarthen area for the last few years so it is not too far away. The different branches of the Elley family still live in and around Ponty. After the death of his first wife my grandfather Albert (father Richard 1812) met and married my gran and they moved to Oxford St. in Treforest which is next to the University of Wales. Their children were all born there. Uncle Milson - he is on my parents wedding photos, remained in Graig Terrace until his death. Albert my grandfather died in 1942 which was 3 years before my birth. I have the 1854 will of Richard (yet another), date of birth April 13th 1774, in which one of the beneficiaries was his daughter Betsy, the wife of Thomas Kilby. The archivist said that the Newland Parish registers for the 1770's did not survive but she found diocesan copies of the original parish registers of Newland which did survive. she found -

(PN227 IN 11/7) October 25th 1770 were married after the banns John Elley of Newland and Eleanor Dobbs of Newland.
John was born on September 1st 1745 and was buried on July 7th 1820.

Children of the couple were

(PN 227 IN4/1)
Mary - baptised May 20th 1771 Coleford
Richard - baptised April 13th 1774 Berry Hill (my great great grandfather)

Sometime after getting this info. from the Archivist the Bishop's transcripts were published and I was able to get the names of further children. I believe there were seven children in all.

I have done a bit of work with the info. I have and intend to publish it in a book form. My children do not appear too interested and my greatest fear is that after all the years of research the info. will be lost. We have a niece who works for a well known publishing company in London and she has said she will do it for me. Her husband is Benjamin Elley, we have plenty of Ben's in Pontypridd as well. Cheers Brenda

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