1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns- Born Gloucester (General)

by Ladies, Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 14:33 (374 days ago)

Hope you wonderful researchers can help me with this Brick Wall?

The above chap is the son of 1873 John Manns & 1874 Margaret(Mary) Alice Browning of Gloucester.

I have his Birth Record and Census Records upto 1911.

Cannot pin down a Marriage, Death, Immigration records at all. I even tried Military Record but he would have only been 15yrs in 1914 so seems unlikely (although a lot did lie about their ages!!)

He has siblings:
1895 Rita Mabel Manns
1901 Jessie Manns
1904 Minnie Manns
1905 Lionel Manns
1908 Wilfred Manns
Charles & John Manns died as young children

Grateful for any help thank you

Sylvia Manns

1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns- Born Gloucester

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, November 13, 2018, 16:35 (374 days ago) @ Ladies

Sylvia

This information has been passed to me by Admin

'This man appears to have been killed in action in June 1918 but is listed as William Edwin Vincent MANNS

birth place: GLOUCESTER


You will find on Ancestry and cwgc'

1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns- Born Gloucester

by Ladies, Thursday, November 15, 2018, 18:52 (372 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Thank you very much. I will look at this. If it is the correct person, no wonder i could not find any trace of him, changed from Walter to William.!!!

What a great forum this is.

1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns- Born Gloucester

by MPGriffiths @, Friday, November 16, 2018, 07:47 (371 days ago) @ Ladies

If you look on Ancestry under :

UK Army Register of Solder's Effects:


To whom authorised: M (Mother) - Margaret A

Which confirms his mother as Margaret Alice (1911 census and your information)

1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns- Born Gloucester

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, November 17, 2018, 17:38 (370 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

As we already know;

FreeBMD,
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Manns Walter Edwin V Gloucester 6a 361

Confirmed by GlosBMD,
Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MANNS Walter Edwin Vincent BROWNING 1898 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 71 31


Despite extensive searching on various websites for later records that maybe our Walter, I can find none whatsoever apart from perhaps this one ?

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1956 (>99%)
GRINDLE Dorothy M MANNS F.of Dean 7b 677
MANNS Walter E GRINDLE F.of Dean 7b 677

However GlosBMD confirms this is most probably not our man,

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
MANNS Walter Ernest GRINDLE Dorothy May Forest of Dean Cinderford Woodside St Stephen 1956 5 30

His bride is also rather younger than our Walter would have been;

Surname Given Name Mother District Volume Page Transcriber
Births Dec 1934
Grindle Dorothy M. Grindle Westbury S. 6a 353 Berona


I cannot find this Walter's birth record locally, but did find this one which seems a good possibility,

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Mar 1932 (>99%)
Manns Walter E Stevens Eastleigh 2c 171

----

To me this confirms beyond any reasonable doubt that our Walter did not survive WW1.
Given the strikingly similar names etc, it seems almost certain to me that the Army records for William Edwin Vincent Manns do indeed relate to our Walter.

I've seen a few examples of other soldiers whose first names change when written into the Army Records. Altho' they could be deliberate misinformation from the man concerned, I've assumed it's just a clerical error during the excitement and rush of enlisting, and the error remained and was copied in future records.

1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns- Born Gloucester

by Ladies, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 10:29 (365 days ago) @ Jefff

Thank you very much,

I am going with your info that he died in WW1 and was called William not Walter on his Army Records

1899 Walter Edwin Vincent Manns - WW1 Service research.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, April 27, 2019, 15:40 (209 days ago) @ Ladies

Hi again Ladies,
sorry for not following up this post much sooner. I've just found my results of a little research I did when we were last discussing your ancestor, but then never added to this thread. I hope it's still of interest and not too late. Indeed by now you may have followed MPG's advice and already found some of this information.

As we agreed it does seem that Walter was known as William during his WW1 service, at least on the official records.

I see that Ancestry are still allowing free access to some of their WW1 records without a subscription, I know not why. These Medal Roll Index Cards are one of the key items when researching WW1 British Army soldiers, hopefully this link will work for you too and you can see and download the relevant image.

It gives the key details of his service, altho I'm surprised it has no mention of his death, usually the card would say "K.I.A" - Killed in action - or similar.
Perhaps this is a hint the Army were themselves confused with his name ??

The card states;

Name: William E V Manns
Rank: Pte
Regiment or Corps: Princess Charlotte of Wales's (Royal Berkshire) Regiment
Regimental Number: 38564

see image etc here, as always it's best to open these links in a new tab or window.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1262&h=1364411&t...

Another excellent website to search is the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site.
The entry for Walter/William confirms his all-important Army Service Number, and the date he died;

Private MANNS, WILLIAM EDWIN VINCENT
Service Number 38564
Died 11/06/1918
2nd Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1759256/manns,-william-edwin-vincent/

If we track down the above webpage we see he is commemorated at Soissons, on the River Aisne in north-eastern France. Full details and images here https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/79400/soissons-memorial/

This one cemetery alone contains over 3900 graves. Looking at all the CWGC site's burial records for the Soissons cemetery we'll see the vast majority died in a few weeks during late May and June 1918, which suggests a major battle at that time. Here's the list of the graves sorted in order of date of death.
https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results/?cemetery=SOISSONS+MEMORIAL&pageSiz...

If we now sort these same death records in order of unit, here's the first page for the Royal Berkshires. As you can see they suffered dozens of fatalities, so presumably scores more injuries too. Of note is the 27th May, and then the 11th June, the same day as Private Mann was killed. These dates are echoed throughout the cemetery's other records.
https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results/?cemetery=SOISSONS+MEMORIAL&csort=r...

This website lists 385 men who died that same day as Pte Manns, including 37 commemorated at the same Soissons cemetery, almost all from his regiment.
https://firstworldwaronthisday.blogspot.com/2018/06/385-died-on-this-day-tue-11061918.html

All the above evidence suggests Pte Manns died during the Third Battle of the Aisne.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-fland...

--------------

The following websites give a good insight into the Berkshire Regiment's war, especially during that spring of 1918.

The 2nd Bn Royal Berkshire was in the 25th Infantry Brigade of the 8th Division, see
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/8th-division/

The graphic diary entries in the next three sites tell us how the lives of the Berkshires and their neighbouring units were turned upside-down on the 27th May 1918.

They were already understrength and exhausted from fighting earlier that year, yet once again they found themselves in a brutal battle against overwhelming odds... They were meant to be resting in a "quiet" section of the line, but the enemy had other ideas. It was a deliberate tactic of both sides to try and find a "weak" section of the line to attack and hopefully breakthrough into open ground, thus perhaps winning the war. By now the German Army and nation were literaly on their last legs and badly needed to strike a decisive blow to maybe win the war, or at least force favourable armistice talks, before the huge American army arrived in force, which they knew they could not defeat.

http://westfrontassoc.mtcdevserver.com/great-war-people/research-family-story/book-revi...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788517.0

https://sites.google.com/site/kinghallconnections/6920-the-siblings-of-george-king-hall...

Once again apologies for my late posting of these findings.

Rest In Peace Pte Manns and all who fought for our peace.

J.

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