Peter NASH born 1874 (General)

by Clements Tump @, Lowestoft, Monday, April 22, 2019, 13:52 (184 days ago)

Peter NASH born 1874, the son of Richard (1853-1907) & Elisabeth (1853-1928) NASH. Richard NASH was an elder brother of my great grandfather Thomas NASH (1855-1919).
Peter NASH married in 1899 Q4 Bridgend v11a p1153 to Mary Elizabeth BULLOCK, born 1875 Q4 Monmouth v11a p25 (no FoD baptism), but GRO does not give mother's name, so possibly illegitimate.
1901 census has Peter NASH, collier aged 26 with wife Elizabeth aged 25, no children but 2 boarders William Preece & Tom Ellis, both colliers. They are living in Llanharan in Glamorgan.
1911 census has Peter NASH coal hewer aged 37 and his wife Mary Elizabeth NASH aged 36 and 3 children: Emy Doris NASH aged 6, Elda NASH aged 3 and Iris NASH aged 1. Peter & Elizabeth married 12 years (= 1899) with 7 children born, but only 3 still alive. They are living in Sling, which is between Coleford and Bream.
Identifying the children is very difficult:
- Martin Methuen NASH born 1900 Q4 Bridgend v11a p826 mother's name Bullock, died 1901 Q1 Bridgend v11a p541
- Kate Annie Elizabeth NASH born 1903 Q2 Bridgend v11a p910 mother's name Bullock, died 1903 Q4 Bridgend v11a p458
- Amy Doris NASH born 1905 Q1 Pontypridd v11a p615 mother's name Bullock - this is Emy Doris?
- Hilda Robina NASH born 1907 Q4 Pontypridd v11a p537 mother's name Bullock - this is Elda?
- Iris Alma NASH born 1909 Q3 Monmouth v11a p24 mother's name Preece (?) - this is Iris?
All the living children were stated in the 1911 census to have been born in Coleford!
However, this is only 5 births, so where are the other 2? Looking through all NASH births 1900-1910 at Bridgend, Pontypool or Monmouth does not give any more births.
Can anyone help here?

Peter NASH born 1874

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 01:26 (183 days ago) @ Clements Tump

Re Iris,
not sure if you've seen but GlosBMD also has her mother's maiden name as Preece.

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
NASH Iris Alma PREECE 1909 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 2 300

You didn't mention it, but his FOD site's PRs has her Baptism, it gives her mother's first AND second names, which match those you have, so seems correct. So why PREECE not BULLOCK ??

Record_ID: 104384
Entry_Number:
Year: 1909
Month: Sep
Day: 3
Parents_Surname: NASH
Child_Forenames: Iris Alma
Fathers_Forenames: Peter
Mothers_Forenames: Mary Elzabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Whitecliff
Occupation: Inn-keeper
Officiating_Minister: G.A.Piper
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 66
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex: N200

I cannot find anymore of her siblings in the baptisms.

---

I see there are a few Mary Elizabeth Bullocks born in the FoD area c1875, and Mary Elizabeth Preeces too !. However as you say this looks the most likely fit, as per GlosBMD;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
BULLOCK Mary Elizabeth 1875 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 33 84

I've searched to see if the 1881 & 1891 Census has any Mary Elizabeth PREECE born 1875, but could not find one. However I think it likely the William Preece lodging with them in the 1901 Census, as below, is her brother or similar close relative ? - if not related to her, the presence of a Preece seems a big coincidence !?

1901 Llanharan, Glamorganshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Peter Nash Head M 26 COLLIER (COAL) HEWER. Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Nash Wife F 25 Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
William Preece Boarder M 21 COLLIER (COAL) HEWER. Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom Ellis Boarder M 22 COLLIER (COAL) HEWER. Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire

Sadly I'm unable to find earlier census records which definitely match this William - would have been great to find him and his siblings...

????

=======

Re the 1911 Census and their "missing" children, I cannot find any PRs for births or Marriages wrt father Peter Nash; or any Births to parents Nash and Preece/Bullock in GlosBMD (apart from Iris).

Peter NASH born 1874

by RJKnott, Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 18:27 (182 days ago) @ Jefff

William PREECE may be the William PREEST in 1881 and 1891.

1891 RG12/4339
Samuel PREEST, 44, collier All b Bream, Glos
Alice P, 42
Alfred P, 19, collier
Charles P, 18, collier
William P, 11
Henrietta P, 7

No sign of a Mary but there is a Mary, 14, servant, b Bream living nearby in English Bicknor.

In 1881 the children were Annie,14; Alfred,13; Hubert,10; Charles,7; Arthur,3; William,3m.

Richard

Peter NASH born 1874

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 21:11 (182 days ago) @ RJKnott

William PREECE may be the William PREEST in 1881 and 1891.

1891 RG12/4339
Samuel PREEST, 44, collier All b Bream, Glos
Alice P, 42
Alfred P, 19, collier
Charles P, 18, collier
William P, 11
Henrietta P, 7

No sign of a Mary but there is a Mary, 14, servant, b Bream living nearby in English Bicknor.

In 1881 the children were Annie,14; Alfred,13; Hubert,10; Charles,7; Arthur,3; William,3m.

Richard

Not sure if this is our man, the FoD PRs and GlosBMD etc has Alice's maiden name as THOMAS in the Marriage Record, which also matches this birth record;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
PREEST William THOMAS 1880 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 38 278

Which has itself been recorded/transcribed as PREECE, in the FoD PRs.

???

---

However, the only local birth record I can find for a William Preece in 1880 in FreeBMD& GlosBMD (none in the PRs) is this one, so maybe ??.

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
PREECE William Henry BULLOCK 1880 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 38 123

Peter NASH born 1874

by Clements Tump @, Lowestoft, Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 15:35 (182 days ago) @ Jefff

Thanks for the effort.
I am glad that I was not the only one not to find the 2 other children from the 7 births in the 1911 census.
Maybe the PREECE in the 1901 census is a coincidence or maybe Peter NASH had a liaison with a PREECE sister, hence the NASH-PREECE registration. However, it appears Mary Elizabeth NASH was prepared to be part of this 'arrangement'.

As an aside, I tend to initially use the free birth & death GRO indexes as it helps to pick up the out of area births and deaths, and it also allows you to add the mother's name to pre-1911 births, which FreeBMD does not.
Although GlosBMD is free, the indexing seems to be different to GRO, for example:
Thomas NASH (my great-grandfather) born in 1855:
GRO Monmouth vol 11a p26 mother's name JONES
GlosBMD mother's former name Jones Forest of Dean district Monmouth, Coleford office Register 11 Entry 169
As I am certain about the degree of access to other counties' registrations, I use the GRO vol/page classification as it provides standardisation through the country.
In my genealogical voyage of discovery I will add GlosBMD to FreeBMD, GRO and FamilySearch (useful where relatives emigrated to North America) before I have to resort to the somewhat expensive subscription genealogy websites, although the latter are useful for finding info overseas and actual copies of baptisms, marriages and burials. There does not seem to be the equivalent for cremations.
Thanks again.

Peter NASH born 1874

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 18:56 (181 days ago) @ Clements Tump

Hi,
Re the missing children, I've not searched for them yet, but wonder if these were Mary Bullock's children from before she met Nash, perhaps registered as Preece or even Bullock ?.

In fact, I've just realised I cannot find our Mary E Bullock in the 1881 and 1891 census, have you found her ??. (There is a Mary Elizabeth Preece born 1877, but she is a different person it seems.)

Btw I'm currently using FamilySearch to search the census' - a particular favourite of mine as it offers spelling surname variants unlike FreeBMD, say. FreeBMD actually has very good coverage for our and the surrounding counties especially into Wales. Despite the reference books telling me to beware FamilySearch and it's transcription errors, in my opinion it's no worse than the likes of Ancestry in this respect. Like you I tend to avoid the subscription sites except for the weekends etc they offer free-access, which is quite often to be fair. Ancestry is available f-o-c at public librairies if I'm really stuck.

J

Peter NASH born 1874

by Clements Tump @, Lowestoft, Friday, April 26, 2019, 18:48 (179 days ago) @ Jefff

Had a look at potential illegitimate births for BULLOCK from 1893 (when Mary E BULLOCK was 18) until 1899 (when she married Peter NASH) and only found 2 births GRO registered in Chepstow:
Charlie BULLOCK born 1893 Q1 Chepstow v11a p13 GlosBMD FOD Lydney 22 182
Constance Ailine Johnson BULLOCK born 1896 Q3 v11a p12 GlosBMD Lydney 24 50

However Charlie BULLOCK born 1893 died in 1916. Constance Ailine Johnson BULLOCK not recorded as a death, therefore survived and married. This means that neither of these are one of the pre 1911 births died by 1911 in the 1911 census in my original question.

Mary Elizabeth BULLOCK was born in 1875 in the Forest Of Dean: GRO Q4 Monmouth v11a p25 no mother’s name, GlosBMD Forest of Dean Coleford 33 84, indicating that she was illegitimate. No baptism on FoD, Ancestry or Findmypast. A pdf copy of birth certificate ordered to identify her mother.

There are no illegitimate Bullock births registered at Monmouth 1893-99.

Looking further afield:

Westbury-on-Severn
1) Annie Elsie BULLOCK born 1893 GRO Westbury on Severn v6a p243 Glos BMD FOD Newnham 1 87
2) George BULLOCK born 1894 GRO Westbury v6a p227 GlosBMD FOD Newnham 1 263 (GlosBMD says from 1893, does this mean late reporting in 1894 of a birth in 1893?)
3) Ernest BULLOCK born 1895 GRO Westbury v6a 249 GlosBMD FOD Newnham 1 384 (from 1893). He died 1896 Q1 Westbury v6a p149 aged 0 GlosBMD Newnham 1 328 aged 7mo. There are baptism and burial on FoD. Baptism 16.6.1895 at Westbury by Leonard Wilkinson, vicar with the note ‘a bastard child’ and mother's name Edith, a single woman. This therefore excludes him. Burial 30.1.1896 at 7mo at Westbury by Leonard Wilkinson, vicar.
4) Harry BULLOCK born 1896 GRO Westbury v6a p234 GlosBMD FOD Newnham 1 17 (from 1893)
5) Edith Mary BULLOCK born 1897 GRO Westbury v6a p242 GlosBMD FOD East Dean 5 428
6) John BULLOCK born 1899 GRO Westbury v6a p303 GlosBMD FOD Newnham 3 28 (from 1893)

The others died later, or the girls must have married as not recorded as a death in single name.

Bridgend - perhaps this is where she was living before she married Peter Nash in Bridgend in 1899
Margaret Ann BULLOCK born 1894 Q1 Bridgend v11a 824, and died in 1894 Q1 Bridgend v11a p441 aged 0. No baptism to identify her mother. A pdf copy of birth certificate ordered to identify her mother.

By process of elimination, the only illegitimate BULLOCK birth that seems to fit the bill is Margaret Ann BULLOCK b1894 d1894, so would not have appeared on the 1901 census. This gives us only 1 birth, but absolutely no evidence that even this one is right, until we identify her mother.

Even after all this, only got as far as the possibility of one of the missing births!!

I think that just about exhausts all possibilities, unless anyone has any bright ideas.

I have also been unable to find her, either as Mary, Mary Elizabeth or Elizabeth BULLOCK in either of the 1881 or 1891 censuses, but may find her with the identity of her mother. Looking for her may find Mary Elizabeth by birth year, even if under a different name – funny spellings sometimes, eg Emy for Amy and Elda for Hilda!

Therefore, awaiting pdf copies of the births of Mary Elizabeth BULLOCK in 1875 and Margaret Ann BULLOCK in 1894!

Peter NASH born 1874

by Clements Tump @, Lowestoft, Wednesday, May 01, 2019, 13:40 (175 days ago) @ Clements Tump

Further update
Mary Elizabeth BULLOCK born in Coleford 12.10.1875, mother's name Harriet BULLOCK, charwoman; no father's name given: illegitimate.
Margaret Ann BULLOCK born at 116 Bethania Street, Maesteg 29.1.1894, mother's name Catherine BULLOCK, domestic servant; no father's name given: illegitimate. She is not the daughter of Mary Elizabeth NASH, nee BULLOCK.
Therefore, still missing two of the births listed in the 1911 census.
If anyone has anymore ideas?

Peter NASH born 1874

by jhopkins @, Friday, May 03, 2019, 05:17 (173 days ago) @ Clements Tump

I hope you will not mind a small piece of irrelevance. I was brought up in North Canterbury, New Zealand, and in a very small town near where I lived, there lived a Mrs Bullock. Sadly I have no information about her origins, or whether she is connected to your search.

However, one of her boarders was the pool custodian where I lived, and his name was Mr Heifer. You cannot make up some of this stuff, and I have not...

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