Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888 (General)

by NElkins, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 07:49 (135 days ago)

Aged 18 Lily or Lilian Ward married Albert Marshall at Monmouth 9 March 1908. No father is listen on the marriage Doc. In the 1911 census her birth place is Lane End Gloucestershire. In the 1939 Register her birth date is given as 12 Dec 1888.
I can't find her up to the time of her marriage in 1908 and hope someone has spotted her.
In hope
NormanE

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 09:36 (135 days ago) @ NElkins

I suspect your Lilian E Ward is actually Emily E Ward who is living at Lane end in the 1891 census and English Bicknor in the 1901 census. Her father was William and her mother Emily. Other than the name difference it's a close match.

William died in 1907 which maybe why he's not shown on the marriage record.

I've previously found people who's name seems to change and Emily to Lily to Lilian isn't impossible. I wonder if it happened sometimes because the person couldn't write so relied on someone else to write their name - so if she called herself Lily, the person might interpret that as a short form of Lilian.

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 13:47 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Think you're right Peter.

That said UNLESS FamilySearch site has has a major breakdown while using it, which seems unlikely as was working fine for me a few minutes ago, regardless of what permutations of Miss WARDS name I search for, I'm struggling to find any refererence of her in our general area at all, with all records seemingly pointing to America or London !!!

-----


Searching FreeBMD for ALL Ward births 1886-1890, these are the ONLY likely records I can find within our West Dean aka "Westbury on Severn" search area;

Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcriber
Births Jun 1889
Ward Emily Elizabeth Monmouth 11a 15 spacemonkey


Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcriber
Births Sep 1889
Ward Ellen Monmouth 11a 22 YPH

It's highly likely that a Birth in mid December, as in this case, wouldn't be registered until the New Year, we've seen many instances of this happening. Less likely to leave it until the July/Aug/September Quarter tho.


GlosBMD adds these details;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WARD Emily Elizabeth DOBBS 1889 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 46 172


Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WARD Ellen WILLIAMS 1889 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 46 302

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 13:56 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

The registration of the birth of Emily in the second quarter was the only fly in the ointment for me (I disregarded Ellen on the name and the lateness of the registration). AFAIK, births should have been registered within 42 days, as now, so it would have been late, but seems it did happen and there was no consequence of it. I found a reference that said registrations within 6 months were still legal.

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 14:14 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Hi Pete,
until today (thanks) I've never known what the rules were wrt registering births, but I've seen dozens of December births registered in the next quarter, presumably January. Admittedly this birth was not in the Christmas week, but still a busy time for everyone especially new parents, maybe the weather was particularly bad that year ?. Assuming the birthdate on the 1939 Register is accurate within a few days (they're not always spot-on in my experience, or some families celebrate the wrong date !), that birth could have been registered almost anytime in January and still be within the 42 day limit.

Cheers, J

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 14:18 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

Re the weather in the Lane End Coleford area that December 1888, this MAY have been relevant.


FLOODS IN MONMOUTHSHIRE.
Monmouth and the districts adjacent to the Wye;, Monnow, and Trotby have been visited by a heavy flood, the consequence of the continuous downpour of rain on Thursday aud Friday. The Wye rose very rapidly, and a large area is under water. In the lower part of Monmouth the streets were inundated on Friday afternoon.

South Wales Daily News, 31st December 1888

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3670170/3670173

Monmouth was a damp place to live in Victorian times, see
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1568771?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 14:35 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

That might well explain it. I don't know exactly where they would have gone to to register a birth. Monmouth was the registration area but I don't know where the nearest office would be. Any ideas?

--
Peter

c 1888 - BMD local Registration system queries ???

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:13 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Peter I THINK would have been local, perhaps Newland as that's where Coleford's first Workhouse had been, and in later years the Workhouses usually housed the "admin office" too such as at Westbury.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp117-138#h3-0008

I used to assume that each area/parish within a registration district had it's own "admin office", so as per the following list that would be Coleford, but again that's just my guess...
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/monmouth.html


I've often had queries regarding the registration process, insofar and as you've mentioned, despite there being "rules" I'm not sure they were often adhered to, or anyone penalised for not adhering to the rules.

A major query of mine is this - I know it was the Registrar's responsiblity for "recording the event", but who's responsibility was it to make the Registrar aware the event had occurred ?. For a birth, was it the parents, or doctors, or the church ministers ?. I think the parents BUT have never seen it written down as such.

I also don't know for sure whether folk HAD to register at their local office, as dictated by the Registration District they lived in ? I think not but ???.

It seems that the situation was clearer and (in theory) better-enforced after 1875, which included this birth, but ??.
https://www.genguide.co.uk/source/civil-registration-birth-england-amp-wales/19/

This is a bit of a slog to read but does help show the problems of the registration system in Victorian times.
https://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/early-civil-registration/

c 1888 - BMD local Registration system queries ???

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:23 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

I found this posted on RootsChat:

An Act for registering Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England.
[17 August 1836] 6 & 7 Will. IV. c.86

XX. And be it enacted, That the Father or Mother of every child born in England after the said First Day of March, or in case of the Death, Illness, Absence, or Inability of the Father or Mother, the Occupier of the House or Tenement in which such Child shall have been born, shall, within Forty-two Days next after the Day of every such Birth, give Information, upon being requested so to do, to the said Registrar, according to the best of his or her Knowledge and Belief, of the several Particulars hereby required to be known and registered touching the Birth of such Child.

XXII. And be it enacted, That after the Expiration of Forty-two Days following the Day of the Birth of any Child it shall not be lawful for any Registrar to register such Birth, save as herein-after is next mentioned; provided that, in case the Birth of any Child shall not have been registered according to the Provisions herein-before contained, it shall be lawful for any Person present at the Birth of such Child, or for the Father or Guardian thereof, at any Time within Six Calendar Months next after the Birth, to make a solemn Declaration of the Particulars required to be known touching the Birth of such Child, according to the best of his or her Knowledge and Belief, and it thereupon be lawful for the said Registrar then and there, in the Presence of the Superintendent Registrar, to register the Birth of the said Child according to the Information of the Person making the said Declaration;'

--
Peter

c 1888 - BMD local Registration system queries ???

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:27 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Wow, excellent find Peter, it's frustrating as yet again despite thinking I was good at driving search engines, and have looked for this a few times, yet never found these bare rules like this.
Thanks so much, and well-done to you sir !.

c 1888 - BMD local Registration system queries ???

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, July 05, 2019, 18:55 (130 days ago) @ probinson

Thanks to Paul Andrews who confirms that from 1837 until 1874 it was indeed the responsibility of the Registrar to find out about, and record, any births; not the parents.
see https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=51247

c 1888 - BMD local Registration system queries ???

by Paul Andrews @, Shropshire, England, Friday, July 05, 2019, 23:04 (130 days ago) @ Jefff

Below is Slowhands post from April 05, 2009

Civil registration 1837 - 1874 (General)
by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Sunday, April 05, 2009, 12:40 (3743 days ago) @ jchardy
Civil registration of births, marriages and deaths, in England and Wales, started on 1 July 1837 introduced after legislation in 1836, the Marriage Act of 1836 (Act of 6 & 7 William IV, chapter 85) and the Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1836 (Act of 6 & 7 William IV, Chapter 86).

1837-1874
The country was divided into Registration Districts, each under the control of a Superintendent Registrar. Registrars were appointed to issue certificates for births and deaths which occurred in their area. Their duty was to actively collect information and they were paid according to their success. There was no penalty for not registering a birth or death, so records from this time are incomplete, possibly a third of the population is missing from these early records. When the local registers became full they were sent to the Superintendent Registrar for safe keeping. The Superintendent Registrar produced local indexes of events and four times a year sent copies to the Registrar General in London.
Births
Parents were not bound to give birth information unless requested by the Registrar. Some were not truthful about the date of birth, as they had to pay if the registration was more than 6 weeks after the birth. Some parents thought baptism was a legal alternative.
Marriages
From 1837, marriages could take place in a local register office, instead of a church. A new type of marriage register was introduced for all marriage ceremonies. The Church of England, Jews and Quakers could conduct and register their own marriage ceremonies. Two registers were completed, one for the church the other for the state. Other denominations (Methodists, Baptists, Unitarians etc) had to apply for their chapels to be licensed to conduct marriages and could only conduct a ceremony there if, in addition to the minister, a Registrar was also present to record the events in a Register Office marriage register. This did not change until 1898.
From 1874
The Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1874 (Act of 37 & 38 Victoria, Chapter 88) made registration compulsory. The onus for registration of a birth was passed to the parents, or the occupier of the house where a birth took place. The birth had to be registered within 42 days or a £2.00 fine was imposed. It still remained a common belief that baptism registered the birth, also if the parents ran out of time they would either lie about the date of birth or simply not register and hope not to get caught.
The responsibility for recording a death was placed on a relation of the deceased. The registration had to be supported by a certificate signed by a doctor, and the death had to be registered within 5 days.
--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>
locked

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by shepway @, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:35 (135 days ago) @ probinson

A Registration Office existed in Coleford but when it opened I do not know.

Mike

Coleford aka Newland Workhouse

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 18:43 (135 days ago) @ shepway

Thanks Mike, suspect was part of the Workhouse building, but of course not sure. The workhouse dates from c1786.

Apparently the Newland Parish Workhouse was sited in the parish's main town Coleford on the corner of St John and Bank streets), see
https://www.colefordtown.net/coleford/tracing-roots-in-the-forest/

The FoD LH Society newsletter states;

All parishes worked independently of each other and a town could be made up of several parishes, Knatchbull’s General Workhouse Act of 1723 gave parishes the right to erect workhouses, the Forest of Dean parishes of Ruardean, Mitcheldean, English Bicknor, Awre, Littledean, Westbury-on-Severn, Newland and Newnham either erected workhouses or utilised other dwellings. In 1814 the Newland parish workhouse in Coleford, established in about 1786, advertised for a Matron to ‘...undertake the Management of this House, where there are upon average about forty paupers...’
https://www.forestofdeanhistory.org.uk/assets/PDF/Newsletters/JUL-2013-NEWSLETTER-for-d...

This was also discussed on this prior forum post, http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35206

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 14:21 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

From what I found, the registration was in the second quarter (June) so would be outside the 42 day limit.

Births Jun 1889
Ward Emily Elizabeth Monmouth 11a 15

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 14:26 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Oops, apologies, yes that's what I posted earlier !....
Fraid I subconciously "read" it as January, perhaps stressed out as listening to the cricket.

Altho I don't think that was the reason for my problems searching the FmailySearh site earlier, just for piece of my mind I may have another go later on.

Sorry bout that, thanks for being so polite about it :-)

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 14:39 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

Fraid I subconciously "read" it as January, perhaps stressed out as listening to the cricket.

337/7 :-)

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by NElkins, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:09 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Thanks for your interest and discussion.
I am heavily influence by the certificate practice of writing Father deceased on a wedding certificate.
I'm also trying to locate the remnants of a large Ward family following the death of William in 1907( Public Trees Ancestry) to see if Ellen is there. I haven't found any of the family to date.
NormanE

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:24 (135 days ago) @ NElkins

Cheers Norman, that makes sense, we're do our best to help.

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 17:35 (135 days ago) @ NElkins

I'm also trying to locate the remnants of a large Ward family following the death of William in 1907( Public Trees Ancestry) to see if Ellen is there. I haven't found any of the family to date.

Do you mean William's descendants? Who is Ellen?

This is what I have

(click image and open in new tab for larger version)

[image]

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:23 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Yes, a decent total, but def not insurmountable !! Esp with an all seam attack and bowlers who are prone to not finding good lengths. AND even if England win, can they do it again come the Final lol.

Btw I wasn't listening live, so when researching this post my feed was about an hour "behind", when they were stalling c220.

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:27 (135 days ago) @ Jefff

Ooops!

I should have put 'spoiler alert' in the title.

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:28 (135 days ago) @ probinson

No probs, I'd caught up by time you posted the score.

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by shepway @, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:03 (135 days ago) @ probinson

There are two Baptisms on this site as follows:
Year Surname First Name Fathers Forename Mothers Forename Event Parish/Chapel
1912 MARSHALL Clifford Albert Albert Lilian Baptism Coleford
1912 MARSHALL Gladys May Albert William Lilian Baptism Coleford

Next step is to check GRO Registrations for mothers maiden name:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MARSHALL, CLIFFORD ALBERT WARD
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 42

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MARSHALL, GLADYS MAY WARD
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 24

I think that puts it beyond doubt. Either the birth was registered late or the date of birth quoted in 1939 Register is incorrect - we will probably never know!

Mike

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by NElkins, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 15:11 (135 days ago) @ shepway

Shepway
Why didn't I think of that
NormanE

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by shepway @, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 17:15 (135 days ago) @ NElkins

Can you provide the name of Albert's father please?
I also have an interest in the Ward family.

Mike

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 17:25 (135 days ago) @ shepway

According to what I have found, he was James Marshall 1842-1904. His Mother was Sarah Moulton.

--
Peter

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by shepway @, Sunday, June 30, 2019, 17:39 (135 days ago) @ probinson

Thank you, Peter.
Have the same findings but I am hoping Norman can quote from the Marriage Certificate.

If we are correct this is Albert's baptism from Mongenes:
Parish or Chapel Llandogo
Date 13 Mar 1888
Parent's Surname MARSHALL
Child's forename(s) Albert
Father's forename(s) James
Mother's forename(s) Sarah
Mother's surname (if different)
Type of Event Baptism
Residence Whitebrook
(Father's) Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister
Memoranda in register
Transcriber's Notes
Gwent record office
register ref. number LDS/PA 41
Parish register entry no.
Parish register page no.
Record_ID 37656
Transcription Llandogo Baptisms 1879-1893
Transcribers entry no. 118

A few years after his birth but 5 children were baptised at the same time.

Mike

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by NElkins, Tuesday, July 02, 2019, 03:26 (133 days ago) @ shepway

Been off air with computer troubles and hopefully limping back.
Not sure where we are at this stage.
I know all about Albert Marshall and Llandogo and unfortunately we haven't found Lily or Lillian as she became.
I have sent a message through the family to see if there are any helpful stories remaining.
Here's hoping

Thanks all for looking, may be able to come back with news

NormanE

Lily or Lilian Ward c 1888

by shepway @, Tuesday, July 02, 2019, 07:55 (133 days ago) @ NElkins

Could you contact me off list please - click on the envelope by my username.

Thanks
Mike

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