Hale/Dressler Marriage- Help Needed. (General)

by kiwigirl @, new zealand, Monday, October 07, 2019, 03:11 (8 days ago)

I am a descendant from the Hale family on Westbury on Severn, East Dean. Trying to find details on Bessie (Elizabeth) Hale, b 1875, dau of Henry Hale b.1849, mother Vera (Elizabeth) Critchley
Bessie was 16 & single in the 1892 census. I cannot find a marriage cert for her & husband, Ernest-Arthur Dressler, although I have a Hale family photo taken in 1908 with their sons Fritz & Franz, before some family immigrated to New Zealand. As Ernest was German maybe they went back there or to USA, I have reached a brick wall & would appreciate any help. cannot find birth certs for the sons either. I have a full Hale tree except for the inlusive Bessie.
I can help anybody with further details on family settling in New Zealand

Hale/Dressler Marriage- Help Needed.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 07, 2019, 04:14 (8 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Hi, welcome to the forum,
I'm afraid I must be quick as it's 4am here in the UK !.

Please can you help clarify a few points ?.
Ive looked on FamilySearch and despite seeing some New York shipping records for Arthur Ernest Dressler born abt 1878 who may be your man, that's all they seem to have at first glance...

I've searched for "Elizabeth" and "Bessie" Hale/ Haile/ etc in this FoD site's PRs, but without luck so far. Similarly cannot find her for certain on FamilySearch etc, especially in the East Dean district census records and such like with father Henry.
I'm also struggling to find them (Eliza and Henry) in this forum's prior threads.

???

The only record I can find which matches yours is her Birth Record in GlosBMD;

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Elizabeth CRITCHLEY 1874 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 38 130


You mention 1892 Census. Is this a typo and you mean the 1891 UK Census, or is this abroad ?.

You mention the photo with her children on. Do you know their approximate birthdates ?
Asking as trying to get a better idea where she was when they were born

Have you studied the Hale Family Website for clues ?. My quick look doesn't seem to help regarding "Dressler".... it does however include 50 ! mentions of "Elizabeth Hale" s in the FoD area alone - you probably know that Hale is not a rare surname in these parts.

http://www.halefamily.net/forest.html


Thankyou.

Hale/Dressler Marriage- Help Needed.

by kiwigirl @, new zealand, Monday, October 07, 2019, 04:35 (8 days ago) @ Jefff

thank you for your prompt reply.
Bessies parents - Henry Hale b.26-3-1849, son of John Hale & Harriet Nelms(Cinderford)
married Vera Critchley 23-5-1871. they had 9 children including Bessie. Sorry it was the 1891 Census.
The family photo is not very clear The 2 sons look about 3-5 yrs, could be twins.No ages given.
I have been on the freebdm/Family search/Hale page/Forest of Dean sites but cant match up anything. Went onto Germany site, & so confused as the name Dressler is like Smith!
As the photo was taken in 1908, I presume their marriage had taken place abt 1895-1904 but Ive found nothing. sigh!!

Hale/Dressler Marriage- Help Needed.

by MPGriffiths @, Monday, October 07, 2019, 13:00 (7 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Looking at Public Members Tree on Ancestry, Bessie's Sister? - Sarah HALE born 1880 - is on the 1901 Census,

London, Lambeth, Norwood, District 25, Page 28 of 41

Sarah HALE - 21 - Housekeeper, born Glos Littledean.

Not sure what happened to this Sarah - after 1901.

Assume? Bessie and Sarah left home together at some point

Hale/Dressler Marriage- Help Needed.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 07, 2019, 17:09 (7 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Like you MPG I'm also struggling to find Bessie's younger sister Sarah after 1901, perhaps she married ?.

I'm also unable to find any trace of Elisabeth Dressler, or her children for sure, but I only have FamilySearch to use, and as KiwiGirl says they're not rare names.
Sorry.

--------

As an aside, just to confirm what we already know, and probably Kiwigirl too, it was very common for girls of this age to move from the Forest to London to work in service, presumably via the GWR into Paddington. My own ancestor did the same, as did this girl who's NOT our Sarah Hale, but it shows just how common this name was in the East Dean area and London too for that matter, and of similar age to our Sarah.


1901 Kensington, St George Campden Hill Parish, London.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Reginald H Mardon Head M 39 Printer. Bristol, Gloucestershire
Lydia E Mardon Wife F 25 N W, London
Heber R Mardon Son M 2 Kensington
Sarah A Hale Servant F 23 Nurse domestic. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Laura M Hill Servant F 23 Servant. Aldershot, Hampshire
Emily J Griffin Servant F 20 Parlour Maid Domestic. Beenham, Berkshire

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 07, 2019, 15:53 (7 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Hi again Kiwigirl,
you're welcome re my reply. Sorry if I seemed a bit abrupt by mentioning the time, I didn't mean it that way, as soon as I shut down the pc I regretted maybe seeming a tad unfriendly but I was long overdue some sleep.
Thanks too for your extra info, very helpful indeed. I'd noticed you'd been "on" the forum for some years so guessed you'd done all the right things astwere, but always worth checking just in case.
Also thanks for confirming this really is a tricky search - when I logged-in again just now I was selfishly "worried" I'd find your search would be over and others contributors esp MPG had got it all sorted, it wouldn't be the first time I'd missed the obvious haha.

So to recap, for my benefit and perhaps future researchers, I appreciate you already know this Kiwigirl;

This site has Bessie's parents' marriage (still cannot see mention of them in prior forum posts). I also wonder why they don't seem to be listed on the Hale FH site ?


Record_ID: 71385
Entry_Number: 164
Year: 1849
Month: Mar
Day: 26
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Henry
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Harriet
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Top of Joyford
Occupation: Engineer
Officiating_Minister: J. Banks M.A. Perp[etual]. Curate.
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: P[rivately] B[aptised] Aug 3 received.
Notes:
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 21
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: H400

Record_ID: 32619
Entry_Number: 119
Year: 1871
Month: May
Day: 23
Grooms_Surname: HALE
Grooms_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Age: 23
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Cinderford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Hale
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Engine Driver
Brides_Surname: CRITCHLEY
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Cinderford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Critchley
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Joseph
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Blacksmith
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks; she signs
Witness_1: George Holder
Witness_2: Kesia Morgan
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Lockett
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 60
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex_Groom: H400
Soundex_Bride: C632

(Great for me to see an engineering family tradition !)


1881 Lea, Herefordshire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Hale Head M 36 Coal miner. Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
Elizabeth Hale Wife F 30 Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
Bertha Hale Daughter F 9 Scholar. Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
Henry Hale Son M 8 Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
Eliza Hale Daughter F 6 Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
John Hale Son M 4 Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
Joseph Hale Son M 3 Parkend, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah Hale Daughter F 1 Littledean Hill, Gloucestershire, England

Using the FoD PRs search facility we can find these ten Baptisms, suggesting there's another child you've not spotted KiwiGirl ;

Year Surname First Name Fathers Forename Mothers Forename Event Parish/Chapel
1889 HALE Bertha Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1889 HALE Elisabeth Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1889 HALE Sarah Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE Henry Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE John Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE Joseph Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE Fred Loftus Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE Ernest Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE Frank Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John
1890 HALE Herbert Henry Elisabeth Baptism Cinderford St John

NB: clicking on the individual PRs shows many of these children were Baptised some years after they were born, eg Bertha's Baptism PR states born 7th June 1881. I wonder iof this means the family moved to Ruspidge c1888 ?


Now in Ruspidge, southern edge of Cinderford, aka East Dean Township;

1891 East Dean, Parish St John, W-o-S District, Glos
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Hale Head M 43 Coal miner. Gloucestershire, England
Elizath Hale Wife F 41 Gloucestershire, England
Henry Hale Son M 17 Coal miner. Gloucestershire, England
Bessie Hale Daughter F 16 Scholar. Gloucestershire, England
John Hale Son M 14 Scholar. Gloucestershire, England
Joseph Hale Son M 13 Gloucestershire, England
Sarah Hale Daughter F 11 Scholar. Gloucestershire, England
Fred L Hale Son M 9 Gloucestershire, England
Earnest Hale Son M 9 Gloucestershire, England
Frank Hale Son M 4 Gloucestershire, England
Herbert Hale Son M 0 Gloucestershire, England

Confirming MPG's thought abt Bessie having a sister named Sarah.


Sadly;

Record_ID: 64558
Entry_Number: 142
Year: 1892
Month: Jul
Day: 12
Surname: HALE
Forenames: Elisabeth
Residence: Ruspidge Cinderford
Age_at_death: 42 years
Officiating_Minister: C. W. Houlston St. Stephens
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: Shares entry with Harold HALE
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/14
Page_No: 18
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: H400

Just days after losing her baby...

Record_ID: 64435
Entry_Number: 20
Year: 1891
Month: Jul
Day: 1
Surname: HALE
Forenames: Herbert
Residence: Cinderford
Age_at_death: 11 months
Officiating_Minister: W[illia]m Lynes Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/14
Page_No: 3
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: H400


(continued next post)

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean, continued

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 07, 2019, 21:40 (7 days ago) @ Jefff

(continued)

Record_ID: 33004
Entry_Number: 3
Year: 1893
Month: Dec
Day: 25
Grooms_Surname: HALE
Grooms_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Age: 43
Groom_Condition: Widower
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Cinderford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Hale
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Engine Man
Brides_Surname: BROWN
Brides_Forenames: Alice
Brides_Age: 35
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Cinderford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Brown
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: Job Brown
Witness_2: Mary Brown
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: W[illia]m Lynes Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 2
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex_Groom: H400
Soundex_Bride: B650

And apparently at the same time, wow what a Christmas Day for Henry and his family !!

Record_ID: 33005
Entry_Number: 4
Year: 1893
Month: Dec
Day: 25
Grooms_Surname: BROWN
Grooms_Forenames: Timothy
Grooms_Age: 27
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Stonemason
Grooms_Residence: Greenwich [Kent]
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Brown
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Timothy
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Stone Mason
Brides_Surname: HALE
Brides_Forenames: Bertha
Brides_Age: 22
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Cinderford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hale
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Henry Hale
Witness_2: Vera Morgan
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: W[illia]m Lynes Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 2
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex_Groom: B650
Soundex_Bride: H400


1901 East Dean, Cinderford St John Parish, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Hale Head M 52 Coal miner. Coleford, Gloucestershire
Alice Hale Wife F 42 Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Joseph Hale Son M 21 Coal miner. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Fred Hale Son M 18 Coal miner. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Earnest Hale Son M 15 Coal miner. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Frank Hale Son M 13 Scholar. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Gertrude Hale Daughter F 6 Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Amelia Hale Daughter F 2 Cinderford, Gloucestershire

The baptism PRs (see previous post) show Joseph and Fred were both born Ruspidge nr Cinderford, 1876 & 1882 resp) and from John's previous marriage to Elisabeth. No sign of Bessie in this 1901 census as we expected, or any other sister(s) of similar age. Youngest son Frank was also Elisabeth's.
Cannot find a PR but GlosBMD shows Henry's next child Gertrude was with 2nd wife Alice nee Brown, as suspected from the gap in ages on census, and Elisabeth's death in 1892 of course;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Gertrude Mary BROWN 1894 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, East Dean 2 105

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Alice Amelia BROWN 1898 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, East Dean 6 349
(There is also a baptism PR for Alice).


------------

Back to the marriage of Bertha Hale to Timothy Brown on Christmas Day 1893.

Was groom Timothy Brown related to Henry's new wife ?
He resides in Greenwich, Kent (East London nowadays), is this linked to Bertha's sisters Bessie and Sarah also moving to London ? Seems likely !

The 1901 Census shows the couple lived in Greater London for a while, and at about the right timeframe. Before that the Census shows they were in Timothy's home area in Dorset.

I see there are a couple of "Langton"s in Dorset, one near Blandford Forum, and Langton Matravers which may be more likely, given it's particularly known for limestone quarrying (but so is much of Dorset, so ...??)
See http://members.iinet.net.au/~suegar/langton.htm
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DOR/LangtonMatravers

By 1900 the family were in Ladywell Kent. Nowadays this is part of Lewisham,
see https://hidden-london.com/gazetteer/ladywell/

1901 Lewisham, St Mary's Parish, London.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Timothy Brown Head M 35 Stone Mason. Langton, Dorsetshire
Bertha Brown Wife F 29 Rusfridge, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth E Brown Daughter F 6 Langton, Dorsetshire
Marjorie M Brown Daughter F 0 Ladywell, Kent


By 1905 they were back in East Dean, presumably the Ruspidge end of Cinderford ?;

1911 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England,
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Timothy Brown Head M 45 Stone mason at stone firms. Langton, Dorsetshire
Bertha Brown Wife F 39 Ruspidge, Gloucestershire
Marjorie Maud Brown Daughter F 10 Ladywell, Kent
Walter John Brown Son M 6 Ruspidge, Gloucestershire
Frederick James Brown Son M 4 Ruspidge, Gloucestershire

Both the son's Baptisms at St Johns are in the PRs, and also Dorothy Adeline born 7th June 1915, father still a stone mason, and all still in Ruspidge.


Record_ID: 67542
Entry_Number: 1491
Year: 1935
Month: Jul
Day: 31
Surname: BROWN
Forenames: Timothy
Residence: 13 Ruspidge Road
Age_at_death: 70
Officiating_Minister: G H Kay C P G
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: A/1/69
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/15
Page_No: 187
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: B650


Record_ID: 68912
Entry_Number: 460
Year: 1952
Month: Feb
Day: 13
Surname: BROWN
Forenames: Bertha
Residence: 52 White Chimneys Wick
Age_at_death: 80 years
Officiating_Minister: W J Turnbull Methodist Minister
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: 5/52 written in margin
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/16
Page_No: 58
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: B650

I have NO idea where White Chimneys Wick is ?? Doubt it's the Wick in far north of Scotland ?

Maybe worth following up wrt the rest of her family, did they move outside the Forest ?

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean, continued

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Tuesday, October 08, 2019, 06:56 (7 days ago) @ Jefff


I have NO idea where White Chimneys Wick is ?? Doubt it's the Wick in far north of Scotland ?

There's a Wick east of Bristol.

--
Peter

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean, continued

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, October 09, 2019, 17:58 (5 days ago) @ probinson

Cheers Peter, that makes sense especially as I see they have a history of mining and quarrying which maybe relevant.

https://www.bafhs.org.uk/our-parishes/other-parishes/491-wick-and-abson

It was getting on my wick trying to think that one thro..

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by kiwigirl @, new zealand, Tuesday, October 08, 2019, 09:08 (7 days ago) @ Jefff

Thank you for all that info. I had most of it, considering such a big Hale family. Now wondering if Bessie & Ernst Dressler marr in Germany, I have been searching websites for details but getting no further ahead. So frustrating. All the details you have sent me 'Jefff' I appreciate & know I have the correct family. Seems strange no marr. record.

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, October 09, 2019, 18:04 (5 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Yes I agree it does seems likely they married abroad, as you hinted earlier maybe you need to get a worldwide Ancestry sub or similar - altho I have no idea how good their record sets are, they may "only" be the same as the free FamilySearch ones ?.
see
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/germany/
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Germany_Online_Genealogy_Records

-----

That is of course assuming they actually did formally marry ?
Unless you know for a fact otherwise, it's possible they didn't, especially if they arrived in Germany or whatever claiming to already be man and wife (again, that's assuming they did claim to be - do you have hard evidence they were married, or claimed to be, or what ?. Sorry if you've already mentioned this).

I suggest you try the "Who Do You Think You Are ?" forum, I've used it a couple of times and I'm sure they have contributors with access to international resources who would hopefully search for you. If you do, and you get any results, please keep us posted, thankyou.

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/tutorials/overseas/german-ancestors


good luck, Jeff

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by kiwigirl @, new zealand, Thursday, October 10, 2019, 08:05 (5 days ago) @ Jefff

Thank you Jefff. On going saga- came across a Arthur Ernest Dressler, b 1878 Germany, immigrated to USA, arrived 1947 New York on the 'Marine Marlin' with wife Martha. Now wondering if my 'Bessie Hale' had died & Ernest remarried!! This was on 'My Heritage' no wonder I don't sleep at night, getting obsessed abt this!

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, October 11, 2019, 00:45 (4 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Your welcome K !
Yes that sounds like the same Dressler shipping record I mentioned on my very first reply to you, I saw it and several "similar" looking ones on FamilySearch, but you'd said Dressler was a common German surname so I wasn't/aren't sure whether it was the same person doing a few trips, or different people each time, or what ?.

I've never used MyHeritage, but googled Elisabeth Dressler and found this. Think you've probably already looked but is your Bessie in this list ?
https://www.myheritage.com/names/elizabeth_dressler

Yes it's "fun" this hobby isn't it haha, but hey you'll get there in the end !
atb J

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by kiwigirl @, new zealand, Friday, October 11, 2019, 01:31 (4 days ago) @ Jefff

have looked on My Heritage plenty of Elizabeth Dresslers, but none seem to be born in England.

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, October 12, 2019, 00:09 (3 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Good point, I'd guessed you'd have already searched but thought it worth a mention.

I've just read today's email newsletter from the WDYTYA magazine site, and I'm pleased to see that not only have you posted your query there, but you've already had some positive responses, so continued good luck with that !
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/forum/topic18174.html?utm_source=Adestra&...

---

You ask about the meanings of the names Franz and Fritz,
Franz is a common German or Austrian equivalent of our Francis, it's apparently associated with a male who is "attractive. suave, talented". Francis means "of France", and was originally a nickname of St Francis of Assisi.

Fritz is a pet form of Friedrich, or our Frederick. This is derived from the Old High German Fridurih (ruler of peace), a compound name composed of the elements frid (peace) and rik (king, ruler).

atb J.

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by kiwigirl @, new zealand, Saturday, October 12, 2019, 01:30 (3 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jefff, Most impressed with your efficient replies, a credit to this Forum :)

Henry Hale & family, Ruspidge East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, October 12, 2019, 13:00 (2 days ago) @ kiwigirl

Wow, you're far too kind, thanks. I'm just one of many on the forum, we all try to help wherever we can, not least those in the background who created and maintain this great resource. To anyone who found it helpful, please consider donating towards it's upkeep.
Thankyou.

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