by george, (4784 days ago)
I have tried to trace any ancestory for Jim Simmons and can't find any but I know he lived in Berry Hill. Anyone got any clues? (Great grandfather of mine). I met him when I was very young and he had a bad leg from a mining accident.
by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, (4784 days ago) @ george
I have tried to trace any ancestory for Jim Simmons and can't find any but I know he lived in Berry Hill. Anyone got any clues? (Great grandfather of mine). I met him when I was very young and he had a bad leg from a mining accident.
Time frame please ??? 3 generations back say 75 years, but we have no idea how old you are !
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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>
by Jefff, West London, Middlesex, (4784 days ago) @ slowhands
Hi George,
have you tried searching this site's PRs ? I appreciate you say you don't know much, but you must have more idea than we do about his probable age, or close family, etc etc (so far we know nothing of this).
On this site there are 25 "James Simmons" PRs, although there will be many more under the various spelling vairations such as Symonds etc that might well apply too !. Do any of these look likely to be him ?
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=page&id=2
ps of course thats assuming he was a James ?.
I had a favourite Uncle who was known as Jim. I was astonished to discover he was Christened William.... "Jim" was the nearest his older sister could get to saying his name when he was born, and it stuck with him for life !
atb Jeff
ps you don't have a Brenda Simmons in your family by any chance do you, at secondary school in Berry Hill area late 50s/early 60s ?
My apologies. I think he died around about 1960 or at least I remember meeting my great grandparents when I was about 6 (and I was born in 1954) and I don't think I met him after that.
I am sure he would have been buried in Christchurch. He was married to Eleanor (I think) Worgan. She had a shop somewhere down there. I think they lived in Ross before Berry Hill.
I am interested in him mainly as I know so little about his background.
I looked through the parish records but couldn't find them.
A cousin said once that Simmons may not have been his real name which obviously puzzled me. He said it may have been Ezekiah Frowen Smith. (I am fairly certain that is what he said).
It is possible that he originated from a 'travelling' family. He definitely worked down a mine in South Wales because that is where he nearly lost his leg. I know they lived in a cottage in Berry Hill because I went there when I was about four years old.
by m p griffiths, (4784 days ago) @ george
As Jim SIMMONS was your great grandfather : what children did he and Eleanor have, where were they born etc. - as this would help. e.g.
by Jefff, West London, Middlesex, (4784 days ago) @ m p griffiths
Hi George, thanks for clarifying things, no apology necessary, I thought you had probably searched the PRs but some posters don't.
I like using the GlosBMD site for general searches like this, as unlike the excellent FreeBMD site it offers results including name spelling varitions etc, in this case I quickly found this which seems to fit nicely.
Criteria entered: Bride Surname: worgan, District: Forest of Dean,
Number of entries matching criteria entered: 200
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
FROWEN Hezekiah WORGAN Ellen Forest of Dean West Dean Christchurch 1897 1 404
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MarriageSearch.aspx
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I cannot offer any explanation as to the possible namechange, I'm sure another member will know, I hope it wasn't to escape "racist" prejudice ?.
Searching this FoD site's PRs from all variations of "Frowen"(with soundex ticked) I see over 1000 PRs, of which these may be relevant, perhaps ?.
Record_ID: 1020921
Entry_Number:
Year: 1840
Month: Oct
Day: 8
Grooms_Surname: FROWEN
Grooms_Forenames: Hezekiah
Grooms_Age: 0
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: lime burner
Grooms_Residence: New Hen
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: FROWEN
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: lime burner
Brides_Surname: DAVIS
Brides_Forenames: Anne
Brides_Age: 0
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: New Hen
Brides_Fathers_Surname: DAVIS
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: innkeeper
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: John Davis
Witness_2: Elizabeth Davis
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: George Pyrke rector
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: CJ12/1
Page_Number: 10
Parish_Chapel: Whitchurch
Soundex_Groom: F650
Soundex_Bride: D120
aka
Record_ID: 68843
Entry_Number:
Year: 1840
Month:
Day:
Grooms_Surname: FROWEN
Grooms_Forenames: Hezekiah
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Whitchurch
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: DAVIS
Brides_Forenames: Anne
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Goodrich
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: 1840 Sep 20 27 Oct 4
Signature_or_Mark:
Witness_1:
Witness_2:
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Banns
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AC76/6
Page_Number: 32
Parish_Chapel: Whitchurch
Soundex_Groom: F650
Soundex_Bride: D120
And also, perhaps linked wrt Lime Burners
Record_ID: 9563
Entry_Number: 84
Year: 1851
Month: Oct
Day: 13
Grooms_Surname: FROWEN
Grooms_Forenames: Hezekiah
Grooms_Age: 35
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Stock Taker
Grooms_Residence: Pensnett Kingswinford Staffords[hire]
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Frowen
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Lime Burner
Brides_Surname: HYDE
Brides_Forenames: Esther
Brides_Age: 34
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: In Service
Brides_Residence: Longhope
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hyde
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Lime Burner
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both Sign
Witness_1: Thomas Hyde
Witness_2: Hannah Hyde
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Vernon G.Guise M.A. VICAR
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P206 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 42
Parish_Chapel: Longhope
Soundex_Groom: F650
Soundex_Bride: H300
Whether Hezekiah is a common name within the travelling community I do not know, seems unusual to me, perhaps it's a traditional Frowen name and these are related ancestors ?.
Using this site's Advanced Search and looking for all Baptisms with Hezekiah as a forename, I find a mere 18 in the whole database, and many are from Whitchirch/Monmouth area. NONE of them are Frowens or Smiths...
Similarly using the Glos Archives Non Conformists site I find 40+ Frowens, sadly no Hezekials altho there are some James, again all in the West Dean area particularly Woolaston & Newland.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Results.aspx
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Have you searched this forum for Prior Threads, I see there are some Frowen/Frewen ones, I thought this one MIGHT be relevant given the Berry Hill background ?.
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35586
I hope this helps a little, more to follow later..
by m p griffiths, (4784 days ago) @ Jefff
Jeff
? think this is the couple (also given as the correct couple on 'old message' Rootschat)
1901 Census, Glamorgan
Llangeinor
Oxford Street
Hezekiah SIMMONS - 24, Hewer in Coal Miner, born Worcestershire Bewedly
Ellen - 24, born Glos. Hillersland
Doris - 2 - both born Monmouthshire
William - 1
by Jefff, West London, Middlesex, (4784 days ago) @ m p griffiths
Now I AM confused, are you suggesting or confirming it may be the same couple, or ?
Pls clarify, thanks.
by m p griffiths, (4784 days ago) @ Jefff
Not sure as yet. Here's Hezekiah SIMMONS on the 1891 census with a brother in law who is a chimney sweep, which was usually a 'travellers occupation'
1891 Census, Ross, Herfordshire
SIMMONS
William - 64 - Ag Lab. born Hereford, Ross
Jane - 50 - born Salop, Cleobury Mortimer
John - 22 - born Worcester, Bewdley
Sarah J - 20 - ditto
Hezekiah - 14- ditto
Isaac D DOWNING - son-in-law, Chimney Sweep - 23 - born hereford, Ross
Elizabeth TINGLE - 21
Percy TINGLE - 2
However, the family are mentioned on Rootschat.
by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, (4784 days ago) @ george
My apologies. I think he died around about 1960 or at least I remember meeting my great grandparents when I was about 6 (and I was born in 1954) and I don't think I met him after that.
I am sure he would have been buried in Christchurch. He was married to Eleanor (I think) Worgan. She had a shop somewhere down there. I think they lived in Ross before Berry Hill.
I am interested in him mainly as I know so little about his background.
I looked through the parish records but couldn't find them.
A cousin said once that Simmons may not have been his real name which obviously puzzled me. He said it may have been Ezekiah Frowen Smith. (I am fairly certain that is what he said).
It is possible that he originated from a 'travelling' family. He definitely worked down a mine in South Wales because that is where he nearly lost his leg. I know they lived in a cottage in Berry Hill because I went there when I was about four years old.
Name: Hezekiah F Simmonds
Birth Date: abt 1876
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1964
Age at Death: 88
Registration district: Forest of Dean
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 340
Name: Hezekiah Frowen Simmons & Ellen Worgan
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1897
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 39
Name: Hezekiah Frowhen Simmonds
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1876
Registration district: Kidderminster
Inferred County: Worcestershire
Volume: 6c
Page: 298
Bewdley / Kidderminster WOR a regular Traveller route
SMITH also used by Travellers
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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>
by Jefff, West London, Middlesex, (4784 days ago) @ slowhands
From this site's PRs we find;
Record ID 2628
Entry Number 404
Year 1897
Month Sep
Day 5
Grooms Surname SIMMONS
Grooms Forenames Hezekiah Frowen
Grooms Age 21
Groom Condition Bachelor
Grooms Occupation Labourer
Grooms Residence Hillersland
Grooms Fathers Surname Simmons
Grooms Fathers Forenames William
Grooms Fathers Occupation Labourer
Brides Surname WORGAN
Brides Forenames Ellen
Brides Age 21
Brides Condition Spinster
Brides Occupation [not stated]
Brides Residence Hillersland
Brides Fathers Surname Worgan
Brides Fathers Forenames George
Brides Fathers Occupation Collier
Licence or Banns Banns
Date of Banns
Signature or Mark Both sign
Witness 1 William Llewellyn Morgan
Witness 2 Mary Worgan
Other Witnesses None
Officiating Minister C. Barnes Vicar
Event Marriage
Memoranda -
Notes -
Register Reference PFC82 IN 1/7
Page Number 202
Parish Chapel Christchurch
Which I think matches the GlosBMD entry earlier.
Personally I can see the attraction of adopting the name Jim in the "modern" C20th ...
by m p griffiths, (4783 days ago) @ Jefff
'personally I can see the attraction of adopting the name Jim'
Name change again.....
1911 Wales Census, Monmouth
Berry Hill Coleford - living in 4 rooms - married 13 years, 4 children born alive, 4 living
SIMMONDS
James - 34 - Roadman Collier Underground - born N/K
Ellen - 34 - born Glos West Dean
Doris Mabel - 12 - born Monmouthshire
William - 11 - born Monmouthshire
Nellie - 9 - born Pontycymmer, Glamorgan
Edward - 4 ditto
Doris May WORGAN (also on Ancestry as SIMMONDS) 2 months niece - born Glos. West Dean
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by george, (4783 days ago) @ m p griffiths
Yippee!! All of you. You have solved a lot here. Doris was my grandma. (if you check the 1931 inquests you will find Ben Cooper and therein lies the link and the reason my father and the rest of his family left the forest).
Name: Doris M Simmons & Benjamin Cooper
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1916
Registration district: Neath
Inferred County: Glamorgan
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 1463a
Year: 1931
Month: Jun
Day: 8
Surname: COOPER
Forenames: Benjamin
Residence: Berry Hill
Age_at_death: 38
Officiating_Minister: Wyndham Jones vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/16
Page_No: 51
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Some of the Cooper family in New Zealand wanted to know the family history. It was the Simmons side that was confusing.
I've rushed through the info here and will digest it all later when I am not cooking and entertaining. I just can't tell you how grateful I am.
I wonder if travellers often had the surname 'Smith' and if it was easy to change.
I also know what happened to May. (And her brother George).
Thanks for your kind message George, we're glad to be of help :-)
Re namechanges as I understand it in those days it could be done by anyone who wanted to and all entirely legally; some (presumably wealthy) people might have posted an Announcement in the newspapers but often not. We've had examples on this forum in the past where families suddenly change identity between Census's. Sometimes this happens when a young person adopts the surname of their mother if her marriage has failed or the father isn't in favor, or indeed they take the mother's new partner if this situation arises.
It seems that this is still the case although I suspect most people make it official by deed poll, see
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/your_family/family/change_of_name.htm
Hope the entertaining went well !
If I had been a male I would have been called 'George' apparently and, as it appears to be a family name, I thought it was a good one for here. But just think! I could have been called Hezekiah-ina!!!
by m p griffiths, (4783 days ago) @ george
1901 Census, Monmouthshire Wales
The Burgage?
SIMMONS
William - 75 Pauper Living on parish, born Goodrich
Jane - 60 - born Shropshire, C. Mortimer.
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1891 Census (in previous reply)
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1881 Census, Wribbenhall, Worcestershire
Court No. 4
SYMONDS
William - 52 - born Herefordshire He.......? (see baptism record below)
Jane - 40 - born Shropshire, Lanes End
Peter - 15 - all born Wribbenhall
John - 12
Sarah J - 10
Hezakiah (Elizabeth as transcribed but crossed out ) 4
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1871 Census, Worcestershire, Ribbesford
SIMMONDS
No. 1 Court 2 Long Lane
William - 37 - Labourer Ag. born Herefordshire, Goodrich
Jane (transcribed as James) - 30 - born Salop, Hottesden
Peter - 5 -born Wribbenhall
John - 2 - born Bewdley
Sarah - 5 months - born Bewdley
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?
FreeBDM
Marriage J/F/M Qtr 1864 - Kidderminster District (which includes Ribbersford)
William SIMMONDS/Jane WOODSBE + WOODSBY
1861 Census, Ribbesford, Worcs
WOODSBE
John - 56, Ag Lab. born Kinlet, Shropshire
Hannah - 55 - born Stoddeston, Salop
Jane - 20 - born Neen, Salop
--
1851 Census, Ribbesford, Worcs
WOODSLYE
John - 47, Farm Labourer, born Kinlet, Shropshire
Hannah - 46, born Stottesdon, Shropshire
Sarah - 17 - Servant out of place, born Neen, Shropshire
Jane - 11 - born Neen, Shropshire
---
1841 Census, Shropshire, Stottesdon
Thumpton? Hill
WOODSBEY
John - 35
Sarah - 35
William - 8
Sarah - 6
Mary - 3
Jane - 10 months
----
1861 Census, Ledbury
Railway Hut No. 2
William SIMMONS - 30 unmarried, labourer, born Hereford, Goodrich
----
1851 Census, Goodrich
SYMOUNS (as transcribed)
William - 50 - born Hereford, Goodrich
Jane - 47 born Glos. English Bicknor
Samuel - 10 - born Goodrich
Sarah - 5
----
1841 Census, Goodrich
Huntsham
SYMONDS
William - 34
Jane - 31
John - 14
William - 12
Anne - 5
Samuel - 2
James - 3 months
--
Church of Latter Day Saints
???
Baptism at Goodrich - 13 December 1829
William SYMONDS, parents William & Jane
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FOD records
Baptism at Goodrich - 13 December 1829
William SYMONDS, parents William (labourer) and Jane, residence: Huntsham (which is probably what is written on the 1881 census)
siblings: at Goodrich - FOD records
Mary - 1825
William - 1829
James - 1832
Sarah - 1833
by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, (4783 days ago) @ m p griffiths
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/CleoburyMortimer/index.html
CLEOBURY MORTIMER, a parish, and market town in the Cleobury division of the hundred of Stottesdon, in the county of Salop,
8 miles W. of Bewdley, its post town, and 11 E. of Ludlow. It is situated on the river Rea, near the Tenbury and Bewdley line
of railway, on which it has a station.
NEEN-SAVAGE, (or Upper Neen), a parish in the hundred of Stottesdon, county Salop, 1 mile N. of Cleobury-Mortimer,
its post town, and 12 miles W. of Kidderminster.
NEEN-SOLLARS, (or Lower Neen), a parish in the hundred of Overs, county Salop, 3 miles S. of Cleobury-Mortimer,
its post town, and 10 S.E. of Ludlow.
ORETON is a village in the English county of Shropshire in the civil parish of Farlow. Oreton is on a hill overlooking the River Rea and is some twelve miles southwest from Bridgnorth and four miles north from Cleobury Mortimer
FARLOW is a small village and civil parish in Shropshire, England. On a map from 1695 it is shown as an exclave of Herefordshire. It is now part of Shropshire, after being transferred by the Counties Act 1844.
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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>
by m p griffiths, (4783 days ago) @ m p griffiths
Here's where the FROWEN comes in...
Marriage at Goodrich - 27 September 1824
William SYMONDS - Bachelor, residence: Goodrich
married
Jane FROWEN - Spinster, residence: Goodrich (who on later census, says she was born in English Bicknor c 1804)
witnesses: mark of Thomas FROWEN and Ann BEAVAN
---
FOD records Baptism at English Bicknor - 29 January 1804
Jane FROWEN, parents Thomas & Jane
by george, (4783 days ago) @ m p griffiths
I am reading and trying to digest all this. So it looks as though Jim Simmons was always a Simmons/Symonds/Simmonds and the 'Smith' bit maybe isn't factual. This is all gripping stuff. Thanks. I will tell my mother this later as she was trying to remember anything she could of my father's family history. She will love this.
I had found my late aunt's birth on the Parish Records on here...Gladys Cooper...but couldn't see my late father's baptism nor his younger (now deceased) sister's.
This niggling memory of being told something like: 'Yer granfertha were really called Ezikiah Frowan Smith'... and I think: ' 'e were a gypsy'... and POSSIBLY: ' 'e were a Jew'.
But it is a bit blurred in my mind.
But certainly you have all verified most of this recollection I have. I am not sure what type of 'gypsy' and can't see any evidence of him being Jewish.
(We may have had some of that strong cider from the FOD when all this came out which may account for my poor memory).
by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, (4783 days ago) @ george
I had found my late aunt's birth on the Parish Records on here...Gladys Cooper...but couldn't see my late father's baptism nor his younger (now deceased) sister's.
Name: Gladys G Cooper
Mother's Maiden Surname: Simmons
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1917
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Wales
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 29
Name: Phyllis K Cooper
Mother's Maiden Surname: Simmons
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1920
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Wales
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 55
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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>
by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, (4773 days ago) @ m p griffiths
Here's where the FROWEN comes in...
Marriage at Goodrich - 27 September 1824
William SYMONDS - Bachelor, residence: Goodrich
married
Jane FROWEN - Spinster, residence: Goodrich (who on later census, says she was born in English Bicknor c 1804)
witnesses: mark of Thomas FROWEN and Ann BEAVAN
---
FOD records Baptism at English Bicknor - 29 January 1804Jane FROWEN, parents Thomas & Jane
supplied offline
William Symonds died 24.09.1877 'accidently killed on the railway'. See Ross Gazette 27.09.1877 for inquest report. He'd been to Ross with his daughter (probably Sarah Hankins, widow). They had alighted the train at Lydbrook and whilst his daughter collected her baskets William, who was stone deaf, started walking on the line without waiting for her. He did not hear the train's whistle and received severe injuries to the side of his head on impact. He was put onto another train and taken to Ross where he was attended to by a doctor but died shortly afterwards.
Jane and William are buried at Goodrich Church.
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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>