John Townsend 1753 was a journeyman blacksmith He and his wife Sarah had three children in Longhope Celia(or Coalia),Elizabeth and Thomas. He then moved to Brockhampton nr Ross and died there in 1829. The confusion is there was another John Townsend in Longhope born 1758. What was the link between these two? I think the Sarah who was his wife was Sarah Harris from Longhope originally. They got married in Avening.

Hi Townie, warm welcome to the forum and website.
Have you searched the forum for prior posts that may help ?. I've just had a quick look but nothing obviously springs-out, need more time later.
My mum's from Longhope so I know the Townsend name locally, but haven't researched them before.

Searching this site's PRs database for all TOWNSEND Prs in Longhope gives only 35 in total, plus a couple more in neighbouring Lea and Taynton. (There are also a feww TOWNSHEND, but not in our immediate area/era).
These PRs span 1757 to 2003, the two family groups you mention are generally as follows;

Record_ID: 118241
Entry_Number:
Year: 1757
Month: Jun
Day: 19
Grooms_Surname: TOWNSEND
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Lea in County of Hereford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: WATKINS
Brides_Forenames: Mary
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Longhope
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of Mark Watkins
Witness_2: Will[ia]m Hayle
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Yate Bromwich Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P206 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 3
Parish_Chapel: Longhope
Soundex_Groom: T525
Soundex_Bride: W325

Giving;

Year Surname First Name Fathers Forename Mothers Forename Event Parish/Chapel
1758 TOWNSEND John John Mary Baptism Longhope
1761 TOWNSEND Hannah John Mary Baptism Longhope
1765 TOWNSEND William John Mary Baptism Longhope
1777 TOWNSEND George John Mary Baptism Longhope

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Cannot find a marriage ANYWHERE in the PRs for a John and Sarah ??.
However the PRs do give;

Year Surname First Name Fathers Forename Mothers Forename Event Parish/Chapel
1783 TOWNSEND Coalia John Sarah Baptism Longhope
1786 TOWNSEND Elizabeth John Sarah Baptism Longhope
1787 TOWNSEND James John Sarah Baptism Longhope
1789 TOWNSEND Thomas John Sarah Baptism Longhope

Unfortunately none of the above baptisms give anymore clues eg father's occupation.

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Looking at the PRs laid out in chronological order as above is helpful.

My initial thought was could both of these family groups be the SAME John Townsend ?
Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible, especially if John lives until 1829. However I've not yet found an early Burial Record for Mary to help confirm this.

Perhaps far more likey is that the second group's father is John born abt 1758, the first-born son of John and Mary. He'd have been about 25 years old when his first? child Celia was baptised.

Needs more work, such as tracking the various marriages on the lookout for clues eg witnesses and so on, but that will have to wait for now.

Your thoughts, plus anything more you can add from your research Townie, would be appreciated please.

??

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PS, Sorry, I missed your mention you thought John b1758 married Sarah at Avening, which is between Nailsworth and Cirencester.
Why do you think this is the case, it seems a little out of the area ?.

???

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Now trying FamilySearch for hopefully more clues about John b1758, I found this record. Sapperton is only a couple of miles from Avening, it suggests this is not the same family we're looking for ?

Name Sarah Townshend
Gender Female
Christening Date 04 May 1783
Christening Date (Original) 04 MAY 1783
Christening Place SAPPERTON,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townshend
Mother's Name Sarah

And these records seem to confirm this ?

Name Mary Townshend
Gender Female
Christening Date 11 Feb 1787
Christening Date (Original) 11 FEB 1787
Christening Place SAPPERTON,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townshend
Mother's Name Sarah

Name Jane Townshend
Gender Female
Christening Date 16 May 1790
Christening Date (Original) 16 MAY 1790
Christening Place SAPPERTON,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townshend
Mother's Name Sarah

Name John Townshend
Spouse's Name Sarah Harris
Event Date 03 Apr 1782
Event Place Avening, Gloucester, England
"England Marriages, 1538–1973"

FamilySearch gives Baptisms for five different "John Townsend"s all born 1757/1758 in that Cirencester/Cerney area.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajo...

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Re your Sarah Harris of Longhope, I cannot find a PR, think this is the record you have, also from FamilySearch;

England Births and Christenings
Name Sarah Harris
Gender Female
Christening Date 30 Mar 1760
Christening Date (Original) 30 MAR 1760
Christening Place LONGHOPE,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thos. Harris
Mother's Name Eliz.

The ONLY marriage record or bond I can find for a Sarah Harris / John Townsend is that Avening one.
However I'm struggling to see why two people born in Longhope should travel that far to marry.

???

Hi I just wondered if Sarah had been in service in Avening and that John Townsend was born in that area and then the two moved back to Longhope after getting married but it is pure guess work. The John Townsend 1758 (son of John and Mary Watkins) died in Longhope aged 55. John and Sarah moved to Brockhampton sometime after 1789 and were buried in the old church there. John died in 1829. It is just so strange that there were two John Townsends in Longhope at the same time. 1758 John Townsend was married to Anne Sterry I think. James Townsend who is my direct descendent married mar Anne Burley in Newland church in 1815.

Just having a look at Public Members Tree on Ancestry for John TOWNSEND who married Sarah HARRIS -

This tree gives his birth as Mar 1758 - a Bolstone -

? How do you know John was a Blacksmith Journeyman - as occupation's usually run through families

Cheers, for that, I've have a better read and think later.
Just to say I don't think it strange at all there were two John Townsends in the same village/area at the same time, we've seen several examples of this happening all across the country especially in these earlier times. It was completely normal if not usual for first-born sons to be named after their father, and this often carried on thro several generations. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but at this time and unless I'm being even dimmer than usual lol, I cannot seen any reason whatsoever why the two Johns we've discussed are not father and son.
atb J

Forest of Dean records - 1 May 1815 - at Newland

James TOWNSEND - Bachelor - Hundred of St Briavels

Mary Ann BEASLEY - Spinster - Hundred of St Briavels

witnesses: Thomas TOWNSEND and Thomas BOND

Looking at the Original on Ancestry - it's very clear - but the Bride's surname look like Mary Ann BURLEY

witnesses: Thos TOWNSEND - his mark and Thos BOND

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There is a burial at Newland - 11 July 1851 of

John BURLEY - residence Stow aged 15 - son of Joseph & Lavinia BURLEY

All of the family were blacksmiths. I am just wondering now if the two John Townsends could be cousins? I am now thinking my reasoning about John and Sarah Harris is flawed.

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Ancestry has

Marriage at Fownhope With Fawleye - Hereford - 23 May 1811

Celia TOWNSEND to Edward LEWIS

(tree also on Ancestry - this Contributor doesn't know where Celia's parents)

1841 Census, Fownhope

Edward LEWIS - 60 - Ag Lab - all born in County
Selia - 58
William - 29
Ann - 18
Henry James - 17
Ann TOWENSEND - 19

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1841 Census, Fownhope, Herefordshire

TOWNSEND

James - 55 - Blacksmith (all born in County)
Mary - 51
Elizabeth - 22
Charles - 12
Edward - 6
Frederick 2

1851 Census, Herefordshire, Sollershope

Square College

TOWNSEND Jas - 65 - Journeyman Blacksmith - born Longhope, Gloucestershire
Mary - 60 - NNW
Frederick - 22 - born Sollerhope Hereford

Hi again Townie,

big thanks for being polite and not telling me that I clearly am as dim as I suggested I might be, you must have wondered what I was on about earlier !!

For some reason that I cannot now fathom I seem to have overlooked the very first part of your original post, namely John Townsend born 1753. I can honestly say I seemed to have lost the plot earlier, and have no idea why ???. Sorry about that.

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Moving on, wrt your later reply to MPG, yes they may well be cousins, it's a fairly rare surname in the Longhope area so seems likely the two are related. I certainly agree that your thinking regarding the Avening / Sapperton marriage etc may well be flawed, at least I got that part of the puzzle correct earlier.

I've had a good search around the various sites for John Townsends born abt 1753, but struggling to know which is our man. Do you have any idea of his birthplace, or parents, etc ?. Probably father John I suspect.

As a stab at a starting point, I wondered if Brockhampton was his original home area ?.
Using FamilySearch I find the following "John Townsend" records which appear to be family groups, purely conjecture but I wonder if they are ancestors to your John b1753.

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Stoke Bliss is abt 5 miles north of Brockhampton.

Name John Towensend
Gender Male
Christening Date 19 Aug 1681
Christening Date (Original) 19 AUG 1681
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Towensend
Mother's Name Ann

Name Rachel Townsend
Gender Female
Christening Date 11 Feb 1685
Christening Date (Original) 11 FEB 1685
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Benjamin Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 15 Jun 1687
Christening Date (Original) 15 JUN 1687
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Thomas Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 16 Dec 1688
Christening Date (Original) 16 DEC 1688
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Anne Townsend
Gender Female
Christening Date 29 Jul 1691
Christening Date (Original) 29 JUL 1691
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Martha Townsend
Gender Female
Christening Date 09 Mar 1692
Christening Date (Original) 09 MAR 1692
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Martha Townsend
Gender Female
Christening Date 26 May 1702
Christening Date (Original) 26 MAY 1702
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

---

Name John Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 11 May 1710
Christening Date (Original) 11 MAY 1710
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Susanna

Name Richard Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 14 Mar 1711
Christening Date (Original) 14 MAR 1711
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Susanna

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England Births and Christenings
Name John Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 09 May 1733
Christening Date (Original) 09 MAY 1733
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name Benjamin Townsend
Mother's Name Susanna

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"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ,"
Name John Townsend
Spouse's Name Anne Weir
Event Date 22 Sep 1737
Event Place Stoke Bliss,Hereford,England

Name John Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 28 Aug 1739
Christening Date (Original) 28 AUG 1739
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Ann Townsend
Gender Female
Christening Date 04 Jul 1742
Christening Date (Original) 04 JUL 1742
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Ann

Name Thomas Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 03 Jul 1748
Christening Date (Original) 03 JUL 1748
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Ann

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Not sure if this is the same couple, Thornbury is only abt 2 miles southwest of Stoke Bliss.

Name Townsend
Gender Female
Christening Date 30 Jun 1745
Christening Date (Original) 30 JUN 1745
Christening Place THORNBURY,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

Name Thomas Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 09 Apr 1749
Christening Date (Original) 09 APR 1749
Christening Place THORNBURY,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Anne

And Edwyn Ralph is abt a mile southeast from Thornbury, towards Brockhampton.

"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ,"
Name John Townsend
Spouse's Name Anne
Event Date 29 Jul 1729
Event Place Edwyn Ralph,Hereford,England

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"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ,"
Name John Townsend
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Bruton
Event Date 20 May 1767
Event Place Stoke Bliss,Hereford,England

Name William Townsend
Gender Male
Christening Date 25 Jun 1769
Christening Date (Original) 25 JUN 1769
Christening Place STOKE BLISS,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Townsend
Mother's Name Elizabeth

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Not sure how this helps... if nothing else proves there are a lot of John Townsends in this small area.

???

atb J

Hi Jeff, Thank you for all of this. I really have no idea who was John Townsend's father or mother or where they came from. I expect if they were journeyman blacksmiths they could have travelled around quite a bit which makes it even more difficult. Once they moved to Herefordshire they did seem to stay in that area. My part of the family moved to Bosbury and there was a bit family there from 1851 till 1902. I am not sure I will find John Townsend's birth as anything will only be a guess.

You're welcome Townie ! And yes I think your search could well be a difficult one.

Out of curiosity I've just searched for Townsend in a surname profiler website. Sadly my old favourite of these site's seems to have died, a shame. It may have been perhaps replaced by this one which I must say I'm not a fan of, maybe it's optimised for Smartphone/tablet users but for this old fogey with an even older pc it doesn't display very well, hopefully other users find it better to use.

Anyway, in the 1881 Census the Townsend name is fairly evenly distributed throughout the UK, but especially predominant in Oxfordshire, followed by Wiltshire, Gloucestershire and Warwickshire in that order. I guess this suggests it's quite an old surname, and is not as much of a "localised" surname as I'd wondered - compared to say Beard which is very much a Gloucestershire name.
https://britishsurnames.co.uk/surname/townsend/map

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Pleased to say this site's still alive ! Unlike some I've found that try to explain the meanings of surnames, this one seems to be factually based. No surprises with the origins of the Townsend surname, or to find it's quite old, both of which I think explains why it can be found all across Britain.
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Townsend

Hoping this is of interest.

It is uncommon for the Christian name Celia appears in Gloucestershire and must surely be a family name.

Ancestry does have a death of a Celia TOWNSEND - 22 July 1770 - Stapleton, Gloucestershire -

Family Search

Celia TOWNSEND - christening 15 January 1769 - Stapleton, Gloucestershire, parents: Joseph & Mary - buried 22 June 1770, Stapleton, Gloucester

Ancestry - burials at Stapleton, Gloucestershire

Joseph TOWNSEND - 29 May 1791
Joseph TOWNSEND - 16 November 1790
Mary TOWNSEND - 6 Mar 1770
Sarah TOWNSEND - 18 July 1774

Hi Thank you again for your suggestion about Celia being a family name. It is certainly something to investigate. They also had a Lettice in the family which is not a very common name.

Another excellent piece of lateral thinking from MPG !.

I wonder if this Celia is also in your tree ?

1851 Wotton Cottages, South Hamlet, Gloucestershire, England
Household Roll Sex Age Birthplace
George Townsend Head M 44 White smith. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Mary Ann Townsend Wife F 42 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Townsend Daughter F 12 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Mathew Townsend Son M 10 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Celia Townsend Daughter F 8 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Frederick Townsend Son M 7 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Lucy Townsend Daughter F 4 Gloucester, Gloucestershire

However further researchs suggests may have been misheard when the 1851 census was taken ?

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
TOWNSEND Cicelia WATHEN 1841 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 2 253

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1859
Cook George Gloucester 6a 459
Townsend Cecilia Gloucester 6a 459
Wootton Edwin Francis Gloucester 6a 459

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
WOOTTON Edwin Francis TOWNSEND Cecilia Gloucester Gloucester St Mary de Lode 1859 33 No 4 239

Name Edwin Francis Wootton
Spouse's Name Cecilia Townsend
Event Date 12 Jun 1859
Event Place St Mary-De-Lode'S, Gloucester, Gloucester, England
Father's Name Isaac Wootton
Spouse's Father's Name George Townsend

Name Edward Francis Wotton
Residence Place Gloucester, Gloucester, England
Gender Male
Christening Date 16 May 1841
Christening Date (Original) 16May1841
Christening Place St. Mary-de-Lode's, Gloucester, Gloucester, England
Father's Name Isaac Wotton
Mother's Name Elizabeth

I now find that Celia is an accepted nickname for Cecelia, I didn't know that before today, always good to learn.

FamilySearch has problems with this Census transcript, sorry !

1861 St James Parish, Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Household Roll Sex Age Birthplace
F Head M 69 Labourer. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Cecilia Wootton Wife F 19 Dressmaker. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
G Son M 1 Gloucester, Gloucestershire

1871 12 Ducie Street, Barton St. Michael, Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Household Roll Sex Age Birthplace
Edwin Wootton Head M 29 Labourer farm worker. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Celia Wootton Wife F 29 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
William Wootton Son M 11 Scholar. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Jane Wootton Daughter F 6 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
George Wootton Son M 4 Gloucester, Gloucestershire

SADLY;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1877
WOOTTON Edwin Francis 36 Gloucester 6a 199

Name Cecile Wotton
Event Type Census
Event Date 1881
Event Place North Hamlet, Gloucestershire, England
Registration District Gloucester
Gender Female
Age 38
Marital Status Widow
Occupation Charwoman
Relationship to Head of Household Prisoner
Birth Year (Estimated) 1843
Birthplace Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Page Number 45
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 2530/61
Affiliate Record Type Household

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Re Lettice / Lettie / Letitia etc Townsend,
I can see several in Cheshire, and also some in Yorkshire and particularly London, but I'm afraid I'm struggling to see any from "our" side of the country apart from Chippenham in Wiltshire, sorry.

???