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I'm curious why a family member would choose to marry at Gloucester Cathedral in the 1730s rather than their local Church of England in Newland (which their marriage licence allowed and was her residence). The groom was a bachelor and the bride was a widow. Obviously she was in Gloucester with him. Do you think that they eloped? TIA

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Hi
from what you say it seems possible that the couple were both residing in Gloster, so marrying there would make logical good sense, especially if they had no close family back in Newland.
But yes, it's also likely the marriage was away from their/her home parish if they were trying to keep it a private, or even, secret event. This certainly did happen quite a lot in Victorian times, where we can more-easily see if it's an unusual event for the couple in question, if the associated census and baptism records etc show they had indeed married outside their usual area of day to day life.

Do you know where the groom was originally from ? (not Gloucester perhaps ?)

Do you know where they lived before and after the marriage, eg from children's baptism records ?

This knowledge would give clues as to whether they wanted their marriage to be secret, or not.

PS I wonder how common it was in those days for people such as these to marry at the Cathedral, rather than a "normal" Church ? . Even nowadays I believe you have to get special permission, from the Archbishop of Canterbury I think, for this to happen. Unless that is you live within the Cathedral's own parish, the Close. I suspect that in the 1700s this was a rare event only available to the privileged, or perhaps wealthy, but I don't know for sure ??.

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Thanks for your reply, Jeff. As I mentioned, the bride was from Newland and they had a marriage licence to marry in Newland or Gloucester Cathedral. I should have added that the groom was from the Littledean / Flaxley area and he is buried in Littledean. As later generations were freeminers, I suspect that he was as well. The groom was a bachelor aged 30 and I have no idea how old the bride was or her maiden name although I've searched the parish registers to find that answer. His probate refers to him as a yeoman and from his will we learn that he didn't have any children. His will mentions his wife and his brothers and a sister and a precious clock. As the bride and groom didn't live in Gloucester it would have been a trek from the FOD in 1737/8. They were coming back to live in the FOD so I wondered why the two of them would go to Gloucester to get married by licence and thought perhaps they had eloped. Maybe they had a short honeymoon in the big city before returning home to the FOD. I hope so. Donna

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Hi Donna,
I readily admit to not knowing too much about marriage licences, hopefully others in the forum can help out here. I do find it curious they had a licence to marry at Newland (which altho' sometimes described as "the cathedral of the Forest", this is only because of it's size and beauty, in official terms I believe it was only ever a parish Church), and also Gloucester Cathedral no less !!, which I believe was a major honour, but why ?? - especially as your findings suggest they were of fairly typical Forest background. All very curious, this is what intrigues me most about their story.

As for them making the journey to Gloster, don't forget that in those days the waterways and rivers were the main transport highways of the world, long before canals and then railways. it would have been a very easy journey to Gloster up the Severn from say Newnham or Broadoak, busy river ports since Norman times with plenty of river traffic to cadge a ride on - especially if they were (perhaps) living in the groom's Littledean/Flaxley area. In those times Gloster was a thriving port, with a customs house since the late 1500s, taking international traffic from Bristol (a major UK sea port at the time) and also local goods further upstream into the Midlands and way beyond.

Yes, I agree, on the face of it their marriage in Gloucester suggests an elopement, or at the very least a desire to keep the precise date a secret - perhaps they'd been living together in Newland area prior to the wedding, and were seen as already being "respectfully married".

Thanks, J.

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You are right, they would have travelled to Gloucester via the Severn in those days. I appreciate that reminder as I am currently writing up their story and that is a nice bit of detail to add.

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hi Im curious to know how the Cathedral was recorded - as St Peter, Holy Trinity, ??

I have a Forest related marriage that took place at St Michaels nr the Cross in Gloucester, the date of birth of the first child is not long after the marriage which in my case probably explains the location.

Littledean to Gloucester is approx. 12 miles so by horse/cart I would guess 4 hours / half a day compared to half an hour on a good day now. I have family/oral history of miners walking to Gloucester and back , probably half a day each way by foot.

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thank you Slowhands. I haven't asked you a question for many years and am glad you are still here to help us who live from afar.

The cover of the register shows: "Marriage in Gloucester Cathedral Register from 1717 to 1812": Jany 2nd [1737/38] James Tingle of Little Dean and Mary Morgan of Newland in the Diocese of Gloucester were Married by J. Gregory. Presenter.
The index and images are on Ancestry's "All Gloucestershire England Church of England BMBs 1538-1813".

It was the Marriage Licence Allegation that gave me the detail of his age and marital status and that Mary was a widow of Yorkley in the parish of Newland. The witness was John Jason a Goldsmith of the City of Gloucester who was bound with the groom in the sum of 500 GBP. They were to marry at Newland or Gloucester Cathedral. I do not know how John Jason was connected to this couple.

I cannot find any children for James Tingle and Mary Morgan although it seems that she had children from her previous marriage. He left a will leaving land to his sibling (my ancestor) and a nephew who I believe were his freeminer partners in the Tingle's Level Mine.

Thanks for the added local history in your message. It adds to their story as did Jeff's comment. Much appreciated.

Donna

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Hi Donna,
I wonder if it was their goldsmith witness who helped them to "qualify" to get married at the Cathedral, maybe his occupation indicates he was an important and influential man in the city ?. That's assuming, of course, that such a marriage (at the Cathedral) is as unusual as I think it might be - I'd welcome Slowhands' thought on this point, please ?.

Re the travelling to Gloucester, for a fit young adult walking pace is considered to be 3 mile per hour max, so yes a 4.5 hour walk at least. I suspect most people would have had access to a horse to reduce the travelling time. Up until the mid 1700s, the roads thro the Forest as well as those from Gloster to Chepstow, and the branch towards Monmouth via Littledean, were in very poor state, especially in mid winter, so not ideal for your January 1738 marriage - it wasn't until the 1760s or later that government money was invested to improve them, and the relevant Turnpike Trusts created. https://www.forestersforest.uk/area/11/roads

In Leonard Clark's lovely book "Green Wood", he describes in great detail the excitement of a day trip by road to Gloucester from his Chestnuts home between Cinderford and Flaxley. The route was the same as we'd take now, via Littledean, Westbury etc, a distance of 14 miles he writes (much like we thought from our Cinderford home). This trip was made in a horse brake operated by a professional carrier, drawn by 2 fit horses to Gloster, and 3 on the return trip when the hills were against them. The trip took 3 hours there, and 4 hours back. And this was in 1910 or thereabouts, when both the road and the vehicle were in rather better condition than they were 200 years before !.
Highly recommended reading by the way !!

Hope this helps, J.

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couple of observations a Bond of £500 from the 1730's would be approx £150,000 today a staggering amount of money.

clearly there were marriages and civil services taking place at the Cathedral, I am surprised and a suggestion that wealth and/or living in close proximity to the Cathedral would " assist" in arranging a service there, would seem to be fair.

looking for some more info on John Jason, Goldsmith. as well as the Tingle dynasty

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks again Slowhands - yes that is indeed a massive amount of money, well-spotted sir.

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused by your reply "I am surprised and a suggestion that wealth and/or living in close proximity to the Cathedral would " assist" in arranging a service there, would seem to be fair."
At my first reading you seem to say you're surprised by (my) suggestion that such wealth would "assist" in arranging a service, suggesting you disagree with me. But then you say "would seem to be fair", which perhaps suggests you do agree with my suggestion. Sorry if I'm missing the obvious here, I'm just trying to understand things properly, and I value your greater experience and knowledge in this matter.

I agree with you that John Jason warrants more investigation.

Thanks again, J.

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Jeff no Im in agreement with you; my surprise was at marriages taking place in the Cathedral from out of "parish" , as St Mary de Lode was I think the parish church

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Good morning from Western Canada and thank you Jeff and Slowhands. The marriage licence is turning out to be far more interesting than I first thought. I'm surprised by the Bond of 500 GBP in the 1730s. That was perhaps more than a home with a small acreage at the time. The groom, my 5th great-granduncle, James TINGLE was born in Flaxley in 1708 and died in the same area in 1754. I don't think he was a man of means. His will doesn't seem unusual and does name his brothers which was helpful. I don't know much about his bride, Mary MORGAN and did not find her earlier marriage so don't know her maiden name. James refers to his son in law Richard Morgan in his will and I see that a witness to the will was George Morgan. Hints but Morgan was a common surname.

The suggestion to research John JASON, Goldsmith is a good one. I will see if I can find anything that would connect him to James TINGLE in the 1730s.

The Tingles were freeminers and had a small iron ore mine called Tingle's Level but I don't think much more. I have seen a reference to one perhaps being a partner in the Young Collier's Mine but I hadn't narrowed down which Tingle that was or if he was my line.

I was interested with the comment about St Mary de Lode being the parish church. My 3rd great-grandfather (George Tingle) married in 1810 at St. Mary Le Port in Bristol. That was a hard one to find. I suspect they eloped because his bride was pregnant and he was underage.

I'm in the process of writing up my Tingle family research (my mother was a Tingle) as I soon will be in my 9th decade so I need to write it up while I can. I sure appreciate your local knowledge. I've researched in the FOD and GLS in the past but I think my travelling days are over.

Thanks for staying with me on this query.

Donna

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Hi Donna,
thanks for your interesting post, especially your mention of western Canada. Outside of engineering, geography was the only subject I really enjoyed in my 1970s schooldays in the FoD. We spent 2 years studying North America which has subsequently proved to be helpful for family history researches as we often discussed the coal and steel industries in Pennsylvania etc, which this forum has taught me attracted so many Foresters. However it was Canada that really interested me, perhaps due to the similarities of forestry, but also the great expanses of wild and wonderful countryside such as the Great Lakes or the Prairies. Sadly, apart from a short time working near Detroit (interesting climate extremes !), and meeting some folk from Calgary, I've not been lucky enough to visit Canada; but my cousin's son lived in Vancouver for some years and it sounds like a wonderful place to visit. I have researched a friends' family tree into Canada but they were c20th farmers who didnt venture that far east.
Wishing you all the very best in your continued researches, it sounds like a very interesting tale indeed !.

Regards Jeff.

PS a thought - could the wealthy John Jason have been a financial backer or partner to the James Tingle mine business ?.

PPS I've just remembered that some years ago I posted on this forum about some of the more recent Cinderford Tingles and their ironworking and mining. I wondered if they were in your tree at all, perhaps descended from James, don't know if you've seen this ?
See https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=46752

Since writing the above post, I've found that (unsurprisingly) the story of the Bilson Foundry has already been researched in some detail, and is covered by an excellent fully-illustrated article in the Archive Journal Issue 33, produced by our local Lightmoor Press, see https://lightmoor.co.uk/books/archive-issue-33/ARCH33
The article confirms the foundry business was indeed started by Joseph Tingle in 1860, "in a small way at first, and at the time of the 1861 census he still retained a former job as "manager of a coal mine" - members of the Tingle family were connected with three pits quite close by". Joseph was born in Flaxley in 1829, the eldest son of coal miner John Tingle and wife Sophia, who came from Littledean.... etc etc etc... It is from his Foundry premises that a road in Cinderford is still named Foundry Road, only a few hundred yards of my childhood home.
Hope this is of interest, J.

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On Gloucestershire Records Office Wills

There is a Will for Mary Tingle (Widow) - Parish of Newland dated 1760.

Can’t see a burial on FOD records.

Has this Will been read? Not sure if any connection.

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Thank you for your interest and message. My notes are that the probate was dated 25 Feb 1760 for Mary Tingle late of the parish of Newland widow died intestate. Her daughter Anne Tingle was the lawful next of kin. I'm not sure whether Anne Tingle was Mary Morgan's daughter from her first marriage or from her second marriage to James Tingle.
Administration was granted. I think this Mary Tingle is the widow of the James Tingle and that she was the bride who married at the Gloucester Cathedral in 1737/38.
I was disappointed that she died intestate so no details unless I'm missing something.
Donna Fraser

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Hi again S,
many thanks for that, I'm so pleased we do agree on a point that for me was based purely on a modern "gut feeling", rather than your expert knowledge of the period. Sorry again for my dimness, something I seem to be suffering a lot of these days (just ask my family haha).

I've just been reading-up on the interesting history of St Mary de Lode, and yes you are of course correct, it is the local Parish Church being just outside the Cathedral grounds. It's almost as old as the Cathedral itself, being built over Roman / Saxon remains - indeed some think this is the site of the first Christian church in Britain !.
This website states that "at the beginning of the Norman period, when the first stones of today's Cathedral were laid, St. Mary de Lode served as the parish church for the abbey's extensive lands in and around Gloucester. The parish included Tuffley, much of Barton Street and Wotton, and parts of Kingsholm, Longford and Twigworth. Furthermore, the churches of Maisemore, Barnwood, and Upton St. Leonards were subject to St. Mary’s."
https://www.gloucester500.co.uk/st-mary-de-lode

All very interesting, thanks and take care sir
Jeff.

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so Mr Tingle the Yeoman was a landowner / farmer of his own land to have the title we should be able to find him in "the Yeomen of Gloucestershire" - another day

and Goldsmith in the Seventeenth century had wider meaning than artisan, an early "banker" if you like encompassed Loans, and money transfer notes that became cheques

the Marriage bond was a "guarantee" that the parties to the Marriage were entitled and free to marry

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks for your responses to my question about trying to understand why an ordinary couple from the FOD would marry by licence at Gloucester Cathedral in January 1737/38 when the licence said that they could also marry at Newland where the bride resided. It seems that the bride was not pregnant and they were both of legal age to marry.

The Goldsmith Bondsman -
If I search the Gloucestershire Archives catalogue for the two words Jason Goldsmith 1700-1800 it comes up with three hits that all show Marriage licence allegations for the year 1738 only - that in itself is interesting:
(1) Richard Kear, of Lye, blacksmith bound in the some of 500GBP;
(2) Thomas Tanty of Rodborough, clothier for 200 GBP and
(3) James Tingle of Little Dean for 500 GBP. Interesting that it doesn’t give James Tingle’s occupation, but it does for the other two.

Would the Goldsmith be something like modern day notaries and he charged a fee to be bound as a guarantor that each of the brides and grooms were free to marry? I am amazed at the amount of the bonds. Why so high? Was there prejudice against those who lived in the FOD?

FOD to Scranton, PA connection:
My ancestor, George Matthew Tingle left the FOD are for Scranton, PA in 1870. It was pretty unsettling to be a coalminer in Scranton in 1875 so he left to join extended family in Ontario, Canada in 1875. By the 1890s he was homesteading in Manitoba and by 1912 his son, my grandfather, was living in Vancouver, BC. I am retired and live on Vancouver Island, BC.

The connection with the foundry business Tingles –
We don’t have a modern day connection to that Tingle family but perhaps we did a very long time ago. Our Tingles lived at Littledean Hill which, I think, was in the same general area as Bilson. Thanks for the hint that Joseph Tingle, iron founder, Bilson Woodside and Miners’ Arms, Isaac Tingle, Bilson Woodside were in 1868 directory. I remember walking around Cinderford years ago and finding what we Canadians call “man hole” covers with the name Tingle on them.

For the locals, you live in a beautiful part of England. I love to visit but I think I'm too old now to be able to do it again.

Thanks everyone for your interest in helping a Canadian with great grandparents+ from the FOD. They married into other families with other FOD surnames: Morgan, Bradley, Packer, Cook, Price, Phillips, Wills/Wiltz to name a few.

The time has come that I must write up my research hence I am writing our Tingle story and will self publish. It is based on genealogy but also includes my local history research with an effort to describe where they lived, how they lived and honour them. I have no illusions that they were more than freeminers who encroached on the FOD and, as a result, ended up with homes of their own. Hard working, ordinary people, just like their descendants. Is there a local place that might be interested in a copy of the family history?

Donna Fraser

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Just in case …..

In the marriage licences there appears only one other mention of the surname JASON and in the City of Gloucester. No mention of JASON in the FOD records.

31 August 1728

Elizabeth JASON aged 24 Spinster Brides Residence : Over, to Thomas BOND aged 24 Batchelor residence : City of Gloucester.

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Interesting. Thank you.
Donna

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Year: 1828
Month: Dec
Day: 23
Grooms_Surname: TINGLE
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: [not stated]
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Hund[re]d of St. Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: HARRIS
Brides_Forenames: Sophia
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: [not stated]
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Hund[re]d of St. Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of James Harris
Witness_2: Mark of Elizabeth Harris
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: W[illia]m. Crawley Olff[iciating] Miner[ister]
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P145 in 1/8
Page_Number: 9
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley

1841 Littledean Woodside
John Tingle Male 30 1811 Gloucestershire, England
Sophia Tingle Female 30 1811 Gloucestershire, England
Joseph Tingle Male 12 1829 Gloucestershire, England
William Tingle Male 9 1832 Gloucestershire, England
Ann Tingle Female 6 1835 Gloucestershire, England
Elam Tingle Male 3 1838 Gloucestershire, England
James Tingle Male 0 1841 Gloucestershire, England

1851 Woodside St Johns
John Tingle Head Married Male 43 1808 Coal miner Flaxley, Gloucestershire, England
Sophia Tingle Wife Married Female 41 1810 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Joseph Tingle Son Unmarried Male 22 1829 Engine driver East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
William Tingle Son Unmarried Male 19 1832 Coal miner East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Ann J Tingle Daughter - Female 16 1835 Scholler East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Elam Tingle Son - Male 13 1838 Coal miner East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
James Tingle Son - Male 10 1841 Scholler East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Amos Tingle Son - Male 1 1850 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Hope Foundry and Engineering Works, Cinderford

Year: 1828
Month: Jan
Day: 28
Parents_Surname: TEAGUE
Child_Forenames: Ann Abia
Fathers_Forenames: Edward
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Littledean Hill
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: John Horlick
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Daughter of: Born Jan 7th
Notes:
Register_Reference: D6026 8/1
Page_Number: 13
Parish_Chapel: Mitcheldean Congregational

Marriages Dec 1852 (>99%)

Teague Ann Abiah Westbury on Severn 6a 391
Tingle Joseph Westbury on Severn 6a 391

Births Dec 1863 (>99%)
TINGLE Alfred Elam Westbury S 6a 212

Deaths Sep 1869 (>99%)
TINGLE Joseph 40 Westbury S. 6a 135

1871 St Johns Cinderford
Anabiah Tingle Head - Female 43 1828 Iron & brass founder East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Frances E Tingle Daughter - Female 18 1853 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Henry Tingle Son - Male 15 1856 Moulder East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
William Tingle Son - Male 13 1858 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
George Tingle Son - Male 11 1860 Scholar East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Alfred Tingle Son - Male 7 1864 Scholar East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Jane Tingle Daughter - Female 3 1868 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

1881 Bilson Green
Annabiah Tingle Head Widow Female 53 1828 Iron founder Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
George Tingle Son Single Male 21 1860 Wheelwright Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Alfred E Tingle Son Single Male 17 1864 Mechanic & fitter Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Jane Tingle Daughter Single Female 13 1868 Scholar Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England

1891 Foundry Lane Cinderford nr Bilson Green
George Tingle Head Single Male 29 1862 Proprietor of iron foundry Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Alfred E Tingle Brother Single Male 27 1864 Proprietor of iron foundry Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England

1901 Foundry Lane
Alfred E Tingle Head Married Male 37 1864 Engineer East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Rosa Tingle Wife Married Female 30 1871 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Evelyn A Tingle Son Single Male 7 1894 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Dorothy J Tingle Daughter Single Female 5 1896 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Cressa E Tingle Daughter Single Female 3 1898 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Joyce Tingle Daughter Single Female 2 1899 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Clarence H Tingle Son Single Male 0 1901 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

1911 Station Rd Cinderford
Alfred Elam Tingle Head Married Male 47 1864 Mechanical engineer Glos Cinderford
Rosa Agnes Tingle Wife Married Female 41 1870 - Herefordshire Ross
Evelyn Arthur Tingle Son Single Male 17 1894 Fitter Glos Cinderford
Dorothy Ina Tingle Daughter Single Female 15 1896 - Glos Cinderford
Cressa Alexa Tingle Daughter - Female 13 1898 - Glos Cinderford
Harold Clarence Tingle Son - Male 10 1901 - Glos Cinderford

1939 49 st whites rd Cinerford
Alfred E Tingle 12 Nov 1863 Male Engineer Retired Mechanical Married 178 1
Rose A Tingle 19 Jan 1871 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 178 2

Year: 1949
Month: Dec
Day: 29
Surname: TINGLE
Forenames: Alfred Elam
Residence: 49 St Whites Road
Age_at_death: 86 years
Officiating_Minister: Tom T Haines Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: 83/49 written in margin
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/16
Page_No: 38
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thank you Slowhands. I've spent four hours today researching the foundry Tingle family.

I can take the Foundry Tingle family back to John Tingle who married Sophia HARRIS in 1828 in Flaxley. That John TINGLE died 6 January 1875 at the Gloucester County Lunatic Asylum, late of Woodside Road, Flaxley. The grand sum of 5 GBP went to his widow Sophia Tingle of Flaxley. John was an Iron Miner in 1861 and a coal miner in 1851. His age on census records would have him born 1807/08/09. I can find no baptism for him in the FOD anywhere (I also looked on Ancestry and FindmyPast and FamilySearch). I suspect the family were non-conformist.

There was a John TINGLE who applied to be a Free Miner in the FOD who stated that he was born at Little Deans Hill on 12 August 1810 and that he was residing at Little Dean's Woodside in 1838. There is a John & Sophia Tingle living at Littledean Woodside in 1841 with the correct children to match the Foundry family.

Would it be a stretch to think that the Free Miner who said he was born in 1810 be the same man who was married to Sophia HARRIS in 1828 in Flaxley? If yes, both the bride and groom would have required parental consent and that wasn't mentioned on the marriage registration (image now on Ancestry).

I have hit a brick wall at John Tingle b. abt 1808, married Sophia Harris 1828 at Flaxley and died 6 Jan 1875. So far he doesn't connect with my TINGLE family but they lived close to each other. I sure appreciate all the work that you did to take me down that avenue of research. I also appreciate the local FOD knowledge that you have. It sure helps us whose family left 150 years ago.

Donna

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?

Do you search: GOOGLE BOOKS (on line).

Had a Quick Look for Tingle Freeminers.

The Award as to Iron Miners
Of the
Dean Forest Mining Commissioners of 1838
Dated 20 July 1841

Etc.

George Tingle, of Little Dean Hill in the said county of Gloucester.
Robert Tingle, of the same hill,
William Tingle of Little Dean Woodside, in the said County.
and Joseph Hale, near Latimer Lodge, in the said Forest,
(as Free Miners, to Tingle’s Level).

……

Just had a Quick Look also on the list of Forest of Dean Freeminers Register on this website.

Family names are very useful.

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Instinct (no evidence yet) says this is the prior generation patriach - he is living close to other Tingle family units and he is from Flaxley

yes these Tingles appear to be non conformist on the whole at least in mid 1800's onwards

Year: 1796
Month: Dec
Day: 19
Grooms_Surname: TINGLE
Grooms_Forenames: Joseph
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Flaxley
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: COOPER
Brides_Forenames: Jane
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Flaxley
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Chas Rose
Witness_2: Mark of James Tingle
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Henry Southouse
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P145 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 11
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley

some offspring

1797 TINGLE Betty Joseph Jane Littledean
1800 TINGLE William Joseph Jane Littledean
1802 TINGLE Joseph Joseth Jane Littledean
1807 TINGLE James Joseph Jane Littledean
1812 TINGLE Jane Joseph Jane Littledean
1819 TINGLE Sarah Joseph Jane Drybrook

1841 Little dean Woodside
Joseph Tingle Male 70 1771 Gloucestershire, England Collier

1851 Woodside
Thomas Ford Head Married Male 31 1820 Sawyer Gloucestershire, England
Sarah Ford Wife Married Female 31 1820 - East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Miriam Ford Daughter - Female 10 1841 Scholar at home East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Joseph Tingle Father-in-law Widower Male 82 1769 Haullier Flaxley, Gloucestershire, England

Deaths Jun 1860 (>99%)
TINGLE Joseph Westbury S 6a 129

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Slowhands, I do have Joseph Tingle in my database which gives me the honour of being his 2nd cousin 5x removed. He is the son of William Tingle and Elizabeth Probert and the grandson of Robert Tingle and Joannah Haynes and great grandson of James Tingle and Ann(a) Rock which is where I connect to this family. Joseph Tingle's application as a Freeminer gives his date of birth as 27 Nov 1769 at Little Dean Hill but his baptism shows him being baptised 16 Feb 1773 at Little Dean. He married Jane Cooper of Flaxley 19 Dec 1796. In 1838 (on his Free Miner application) he stated that he was a collier who worked at Middleridge which is interesting. So, with your help I think we've figured out how my Tingle family related to the foundry Tingle family and I'm grateful for your help.

I'm beginning to think that the dates of birth given on the Free Miner Applications are best guesses and not necessarily accurate even within years of birth.

I suspect you are the one who can answer a question I've had concerning this Tingle family and why in 1834 his descendants would have to do an inventory regarding their grandfather's death in 1789. Was it to do with the application form as a Free Miner and perhaps to prove the connection to the Tingle's Level Mine? I'm referring to this administration document:

17th July 1834, Admon Robert TINGLE d. 1789
On which day appeared personally Joseph Tingle of Littledean Woodside in the County and Diocese of Gloucester coal miner, deceased and alleged upon oath that Robert Tingle late of the same place coal miner deceased died in the year 1789 Intestate leaving goods chattels and credits wholly within the Diocease of Gloucester Under the value of Twenty pounds - That he the said Joseph Tingle is the natural and lawful grandson the son of a son and next of kin of the said deceased - That he will well and faithfully administer the goods chattels and credits of the said deceased and render an Inventory and Account etc.

Wherefore he prayed that Letters of Administration of all and singular the goods chattels and credits of the said deceased might be granted and committed to him upon giving such good and sufficient security as in this behalf is required and so forth.

Set Admon ? as prayed Security having been given.
(illegible signature) Principal ?
Sworn under 20 GBP Before me
All which I attest
Tho. Hall joint Dep. Regr.

The grandson had to create an inventory over 50 years after his grandfather's death. Why?

Isn't family history research interesting!
Donna

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Joseph Tingle's application as a Freeminer gives his date of birth as 27 Nov 1769 at Little Dean Hill but his baptism shows him being baptised 16 Feb 1773 at Little Dean. He married Jane Cooper of Flaxley 19 Dec 1796. In 1838 (on his Free Miner application) he stated that he was a collier who worked at Middleridge which is interesting. So, with your help I think we've figured out how my Tingle family related to the foundry Tingle family and I'm grateful for your help.

I'm beginning to think that the dates of birth given on the Free Miner Applications are best guesses and not necessarily accurate even within years of birth.

Hi again Donna,
apologies for intruding into your question to Slowhands, hopefully neither of you mind too much.
I just wanted to say I agree with your view that the dates of birth on Free Miner Applications are likely to vary from reality. This was, of course, a time when literacy levels amongst the general public such as our ancestors wasn't high - they'd not been formally educated, they didn't keep overly accurate records about such things as birthdays, or perhaps care much about dates at all; their daily lives were dictated by their local situation regarding the seasons, the cycles of the sun and moon, the prevailing weather and the local Church clock (which was often wrong even compared to Greenwich Mean Time, which was only introduced across the UK with the spread of railway networks c1850, and as late as 1880 hadn't been fully achieved throughout the UK).
Also, don't be concerned that Joseph wasn't baptised until three years after his birth, this forum has seen many examples of much later baptisms, for various reasons, such as the family being non-Conformists as Slowhands mentioned was the case here. The birthdate obtained from the 1851 census confirms his birth was in 1769, and this is more accurate a reference than can be inferred from the less-precise 1841 census.
Also, and I'm not suggesting it's relevant here, to qualify to be a Freeminer he had to be at least 21 years old - I can easily imagine there being some men in those times who would "adjust" their birthdates to alllow them to qualify, in the same way that ages quoted at a marriage ceremony sometimes differed from reality.

For more info about the Freeminers I suggest you see this website, and perhaps contact Jonathan Wright for his view on any queries you might have. For many centuries the Freeminers organisation was an integral and important body regarding the governance of the Forest and it's mining rights, so it was right and proper that they strictly controlled applications to join their membership.
https://www.forestfreeminers.org/

Finally, the Middleridge location you mention is a little way from the usual Cinderford(aka Bilson Woodside) / Littledean Hill / Edge Hills / Haywood location we've previously associated with the Tingles (all part of the East Dean township admin district). Centuries ago the Forest was divided into several Inclosures for admin purposes, one of them is still called Middleridge, it's only about a mile and a half southwest of East Dean.
https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/local/middleridge-inclosure-forest-of-dean

In more recent times there doesn't appear to have been much mining in that area (of coal I mean, def not iron stone). I cannot find any evidence online of a pit there being operated by the Tingles, but that may just be because most of the available records relate to the latter half of the 1800s and afterwards, long after most of the small pits had been worked-out, abandoned, or swallowed-up underground by one of the bigger concerns (the underground roads to the seams could spread for miles from the pithead). Of the latter big concerns the nearest to Middleridge that I can think of was the New Fancy pit.
Apologies if I've already mentioned this website to you in the past, but detailed history of many of the Dean's coal mines (not iron) are in this excellent site created by Ian Pope, a Cinderford historian like his father Alec. To navigate the numerous pages of the site, click on the headgear emblem at base of each page.
https://lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/Coalopen.html

From this website, this 1894 map of the Forest shows the principal coal pits (black blobs) and iron pits (brown blobs).
https://lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/Overviewmap.html
Clicking on each section will enlarge it, this is the one relevant to your family, you can see "Tingles" iron pit at top right hand corner on the ridge up above Cinderford, and if you follow the blue railway line southwest can find the New Fancy etc coal pits.
https://lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/EastDean.html

Hope this helps, I look forward with interest to Slowhands' reply regarding your admin document.

J

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Thank you, Jeff. I will investigate the links and appreciate your interest.

Years ago, when on a trip to the area Ian Pope took my cousin and I to the remains of Tingle's Level. It was marked on the 6" Map Gloucester 31NE (1927), 100 yards north of the large radio mast. It lies a quarter of a mile NNW of Edgehills Lodge. It was sold in 1856 (a few years after the death of George Tingle) and again in 1873 and surrendered back to the Crown in 1888. If I recall correctly it was labelled on the map as Pringle's or something similar. I was there again in 2017 with yet another cousin with thanks to David Tuffley who helped us find it.

I love this FOD site for helping us from afar with your local knowledge. I thank all who have responded.

Now to dig further with this extra knowledge.

Donna

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https://maps.nls.uk/view/109725337
although not marked pretty sure the land feature 964 is there where you describe in the top left quadrant above the Lodge.

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thank you. I would never have found it on that series of maps without your help.
Donna

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Hi Donna,
you're very welcome for my interest, most enjoyable for me to try to help out. Apologies for perhaps repeating what you already knew, I hadn't realised you'd already and quite literally trodden this ground in the past, and with Ian and Dave you most definitely had the right people to show you around !.

Here's an earlier edition of the map Slowhands posted, from about 1880, and as you say at that time it was labelled as Pingle's Pit.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101453373

For the next edition from 1901 they'd corrected their error.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101453370

As kids in the 70s we spent most of our school holidays "muckin about" in the Forest around Cinderford, sometimes cycling south thro' Soudley to the Middleridge area around Blackpool Brook and ponds, or more west to Cannop ponds and Speech House woods. If it wasn't the fishing season, or was just too hot and sunny for such things, we'd cycle up and into the denser conifer woods in the Edgehills / Collafield area. We spent long summer days hidden away in the shade, building camps and suchlike, and always on the lookout for the old mine shafts which thankfully were pretty-well sealed, not that we were adventurous or daft enough to try to enter them. However we did try dislodging stones from the top of the sheer faces of the disused quarries at Edgehills, a "game" that terrified me, or clambering on the old buildings and fishing the pit ponds at Fairplay to the north. We also visited the radio mast that you saw, although if my memory serves me right (I've not lived in the Dean for 40 years now), in those days it was a Fire lookout tower, before the age of telecomms.
I just wish we'd had access to these great old maps, would have saved us getting lost a few times !

Thanks again to you Donna for helping take me back to these great days, we were so very lucky having such a wonderful playground on our doorstep.

atb J.

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Thanks for the links, Jeff and Slowhands. I'd have had great difficulty finding the iron pit on my own. I'm amazed at all the paths and trails in the Forest.

On George Tingle's application as a Free Miner he referenced George's Folley as being the mine he was working on in 1838. I imagine with that name it didn't produce much except hard work. I hope it was closer to home than Tingle's pit seems to be.

Jeff, my sons are probably closer to your age and would have loved to explore the way you were able to in the Forest of Dean. In earlier times you left on your bike to explore and came home for supper and no one worried about you. I think they had too much else to do to be worrying about their kinds in relative safety.

I've decided, because it is unique to the Forest of Dean, that I will have an addendum to the family history that I'm writing devoted to explaining the Free Miner system and about Tingle's Level aka Tingle's pit with a snip of the map showing its location. I'm thinking in a self-published family history book that will not be sold outside the family I'm probably ok with a snip of the OS map page.

George Tingle lived at Littledean Hill. Roughly how far away would this pit have been?

Slowhands and Jeff, I can't thank you enough for helping me with this project.
Donna

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HI

Littledean Hill area is a mile due south of the Tingle Level - they lived and worked close by
(marked top middle of map referenced below)

Regulator Colliery, including Regulator, Waterloo, Oak and George's Folly Gales
Map ref SO 6520 1480 George's Folly

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101453391
top left hand corner Hollyhill Wood and Tormentor colliery are marked - Georges Folly is probably the shaft nearest the edge of the map.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/109725355 Tormeadow colliery marked upper right corner, again old shaft workings to the north is the area where Georges Folly was , on the edge of Holly Hill inclosure.

Today this is Upper Bilson / Bilson Green part of Cinderford, where Valley rd heads toward Steam Mills - area also known as Whimsey after the colliery there.

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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My goodness! That is so very interesting and new information for me. Thank you.
Donna

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Jeff, my sons are probably closer to your age and would have loved to explore the way you were able to in the Forest of Dean. In earlier times you left on your bike to explore and came home for supper and no one worried about you. I think they had too much else to do to be worrying about their kinds in relative safety.

Hi again Donna,
I'm glad my ramblings were of interest. Yes we had great times, and yes we were allowed a degree of freedom that modern parents don't like to allow. Then again, we were also firmly schooled on when we HAD to be back home, on good behaviour and looking-out for each other if things got tricky. We also knew that any adults were allowed to deal with us very firmly and immediately if we ever overstepped the mark, and we'd get it all again from our fathers when we got home. And let's not be naive - yes there were some "odd" and even dangerous people around in those days, just as there are now, and our parents probably knew this, but unlike nowadays the newspapers and media wern't full of scaremongering tales, and we were allowed and encouraged to learn by the school of hard knocks. A real worry for our parents were the numerous ponds around the Forest, old mine workings with scrap metal and old steel cables etc dumped in them, but hidden under the calm cool inviting water. Almost every year the papers reported on another local kid drowning after getting tangled in the rubbish or weeds, so we were lectured to not swim in the ponds we fished in, altho' we did swim in the Wye at the Biblins. I remember thinking about all these worries when my son got his first proper bike c2005; sadly we felt unwilling to let him go out on it alone (his closest school mates lived a mile, not yards, away, modern road traffic levels are far worse, and even tho' we lived in a reasonably nice area of a town on the very edge of greater London, with countryside only two mile west, and a large green park next to our house, ??? - different times sadly).

Finally, I'm sure you already know that this wonderful website is packed full of so many more sources of information than "just" the forum and PRs - just browse thro' the many and various headings under the menu along the top of the home page, you may find good material for your book. For example under "Documents and Articles" you might eventually find this letter my Mum saw in the local paper back in 2012, she was still living in my childhood home in Cinderford up until her passing a few years ago. The article was written by one of my best mates in the 60s and 70s; we were both born in '62, our mother's met thro the Church, and together we went thro' primary school, Sunday School, Cub scouts, jumble sales and fetes, umpteen birthday parties, etc etc. Sadly we didn't attend the same secondary school, and then lost contact completely while following our own careers away from the Forest. So it was a real pleasure for me to read the letter back in 2012, and learn that after all those years Rich "Harry" Harris, a bit of a tough guy compared to me as kids, yet 30 years later he still cherished all the same lovely memories and respect for the Forest that I'd gained during our shared childhoods.
After submitting the letter into this site, I'm pleased to say that, with some help from Slowhands, Harry and I are reunited again now. To many casual observers modern-day Cinderford is a scruffy little town, rather tired now compared to all the busy shops and businesses of our childhood, but the Forest people are still as warm and friendly and that counts much more than bricks and mortar. I hope you like Harry's letter, despite the heading it relates to the 70s more than the 60s, and for what it's worth I can also remember his Sunday paper round as I covered for him during his summer holidays in Cornwall - those Sunday broadsheets were heavy, especially the posh Times and Telegraphs with colour supplements, and I didn't get to see the good tippers but I soon got to know the good and notsogood dogs (small Jack Russell terriers were far scarier than the big black Alsation). And after a long morning's toil in the sun, we'd then spend our few quid wages on comics and sweets at the same newsagents who'd employed us, haha.
On the subject of our over-worked bikes, I recall when Harry introduced us to a new game, leading us cycling along the bed of Blackpool brook in perhaps 6 inches of water. Sadly he had the best, newest, bike of us all, in retrospect probably the most fragile one too, and it was his lightweight Coventry Eagle that suffered headset bearing damage on hitting a rather large submerged rock; I recall us all walking back home with him and his broken steed, he knew full well what was in store from his normally mild and gentle and usually smiling father... yes great times, but not without some tears too.

Wishing you all the very best with your book.

Best regards, Jeff.

https://forest-of-dean.net/downloads/Stories_Articles/Cinderford%20Childhood%20Memories...

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Richard's letter was fun to read and I thank you for sharing the link. He even recalled having a drink at the Royal Oak on Littledean Hill which my ancestor operated from 1838 to 1852 so long before Richard's time! Memories are such fun to share and so very much a part of our history. My husband is now in care and I visit him every day and every day we share memories. We are far more honest about our feelings now than at the time of the memory and we have the benefit of knowing the outcome and that together we made it through the difficult times. We both look forward to sharing our memories on my visits.

The Forest of Dean Family History Trust is an amazing website, so much information and the ability to ask queries and get such helpful answers from locals. I have thoroughly enjoyed this last week of exchanges and as a result, I've learned so much more about where my Tingle ancestors worked and lived.

Thank you.
Donna

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Hi Donna,
I'm glad you enjoyed my latest ramblings, and especially Harry's letter.
His old family home in Cinderford is 3/4 of the way up Dockham Road, at the junction of St Annals road. You probably already know that in the early days of Cinderford, c1850ish when still a relatively "new" town, and sometimes still known as Bilson Woodside, it had grown from the earlier settlements around the industrial areas such as Bilson down in the valley to the west, and the likes of Dockham and St Annals on the higher eastern ridge, where the iron mines were operating. I suspect you've already seen this excellent history of town (which also mentions the Royal Oak).
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp300-325#h3-s2

The earliest (online) OS map for the area c1879 still shows the built-up places of Dockham and Littledean Hill to be slightly remote from the rest of the town, and the various mines and pubs are easily seen when you zoom into the central portion.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101453397

Sadly I don't recall ever going into the Royal Oak, although we certainly biked past it umpteen times as kids enroute from Harry's, up Dockham Road, left onto Littledean Hill Road and on north past Latimer Lodge towards Edgehills etc. It was the nearest pub to Harry's home, and less busy than those down in the town centre, so ideal for a discrete teenage pint. In later years (80s and 90s) I occasionally visited the nearby Royal Foresters pub, a bit of a hike but it was near the family homes of other lifelong friends who'd moved away for college and then work, so we'd meet-up especially during Christmastimes when we'd returned home to visit parents - I think my last time there was my niece's engagement party c2011. Sadly both pubs are long gone now, like the vast majority of old pubs across the UK. I recall abt 1980 we did a quick list of all the town's current drinking places, mainly pubs but also social clubs and sports clubs, we were surprised to find well over 20 ! - I shudder to think how few there are left now... Like you I have ancestors with long careers in local pubs and I mourn the loss of these important focal points for community and business, they were much more than just the drinking places of nowadays.
In case you didn't know, the history of the Royal Oak and other local pubs are detailed in Geoff Sandals' great website.
https://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/pubs/royal-oak-littledean-hill-road-cinderford/

I'm sorry to learn your husband is in care, I know how difficult that can be for everyone, but as you say your daily visits and chats are surely of great benefit to you both as you recall your lives and times together. I know I speak for all members of this forum that we are pleased to be helping a little in this respect, and wish him well.

Best wishes to you both, Jeff.

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Hi so my interpretation is that Grandfather dies without a formal will (intestate) - the surviving family share the estate - his wife if she was alive and sons etc. Life carries on, as far as the family are concerned they have done the "right" thing...

at some point there is a family dispute or maybe an asset that was "inherited" needs to be sold.

At this point the ownership is still recorded as the deceased grandfather, and to "put this right" or sell the asset legally the Grandfather's estate needs to be "Administered".

The transcript I think hints that an audit of what was Grandfathers was drawn up so that the correct legal process could be followed - many years behind

I am imagining the list being mainly disputed items, or ones that needed ownership transferred.

the 20 pounds probably represents the point at which Tax would be due for estates larger than £20

hope this helps

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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I think you are spot on. Unfortunately there isn't a copy of the inventory but I think it was to formally transfer Tingle's Level aka Tingle's Pit to the younger Tingles.
Thank you.
Donna

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