John Phelps born 1840 East Dean married Charlotte Brain born abt 1841. They married on 24 Dec 1860. (I have both John's baptism and marriage records)
Known children were: Silas born abt 1861 - Mary born abt 1863 - Alfred born abt 1866 - Elizabeth born abt 1869 - Alice Maria born abt 1871, all in East Dean.
Now the mystery bit occurs. John was last found on the 1871 census with his wife and family. His wife Charlotte died age 31 in Sept 1872 in Little Dean
John is not found on the 1881 or 1891 censuses.

Someone from Lancashire contacted me recently with the following information:
John Phelps possibly married Ellen Nelms in Wigan Greater Manchester Lancashire. 1880 Q1 Vol 8c Wigan

The mystery of John Phelps and his perhaps second wife Ellen is intriguing me. So much so that I went looking for them on 1881 and 1891 census but could not find them. I did find them on 1901 for Ince Makerfield Greater Manchester Lancashire under the name Phillps (mistrancribed should have been Phelps). If they married in 1880 it is very strange that they only appear on the 1901 census.There is a twenty-year gap in which John has disappeared of the face of the earth.

The 1901 census says Ellen was born in Gloucestershire so I went looking for her. In 1871 an Ellen Nelmes age 22 unmarried, was living with her widowed mother and various children. One of the children shown was a John Nelmes – grandson aged 1 born abt 1870 in East Dean. The census does not give his parents but I wondered if he was a child of Ellen’s born prior to any marriage. I eventually found him - married and living with his wife and children on the 1901 census, would you believe in Ince Makerfield Lancashire, at 10 Victoria Street. This is just a few doors away from where John Phelps and his wife and children are living. I do not believe this to be coincidence, he must be some relation to Ellen, perhaps her son but not proven.

Also, one of John Phelps children Mary, born abt 1804 is living in Lancashire with her husband and family. She married Edward Shone and all children were born in Atherton Lancashire.

What is clear is that after John Phelps’s first wife died, his children were farmed out to other members of the family. I have not found all of them yet but a few were living with the Brain family, who were relations of his first wife Charlotte Brain. (See my file) It is looking more and more likely that John founded another family in Lancashire. Does anyone have any other information which could give the location of John in 1881 and 1891? Jean Herbert

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=2670#p2673

looks like them ! < as transcribed !!!! >

Name: Ellen Nelms
Name: John Phelps
Year of Registration: 1880
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Wigan
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 33

1881
John Heeps abt 1840 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Ellen Heeps abt 1847 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Alfred Heeps abt 1866 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Eli. Heeps abt 1868 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Samuel Heeps Lancashire, England Son Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
William Heeps abt 1878 Wigan, Lancashire, England Son Ince in Makerfield Lancashire

1891
John Philp abt 1840 Swithland, Gloucestershire, England Head Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Ellen Philp abt 1847 Paisley, Gloucestershire, England Wife Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Ann Philp abt 1884 Lancashire, England Daughter Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
William Philp abt 1878 Paisley, Gloucestershire, England Son Ince in Makerfield Lancashire

1901
John Philips abt 1841 Risbridge, Gloucestershire, England Head Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Ellen Philips abt 1849 Bridley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Wife Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Annie Philips abt 1884 Ince in Makerfield Daughter Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
William Philips abt 1878 Bridley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Son Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Elizabeth Philips abt 1877 Cefn, Denbighshire, Wales Daughter-in-law Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
Elizabeth Philips abt 1901 Ince in MacKerfield Grandchild Ince in Makerfield Lancashire

Slowhands
Many many thanks for your latest and best information so far. You have now confirmed the link to the Phelps in Wigan Lancashire. I have spoken to the person who originally contacted me via telephone and they are so pleased to have this information. Again, many thanks. Jean Herbert

Jean
I am interested in this move as my relatives also moved to Ince in Makerfield at a similar time (c1873 - 1879). Their surnames were Morgan (James, William, & Amos - with mother Eliza) and Rhodes (Hannah and her children) The Morgans were stonemasons. I'm really interested if anyone knows of a specific reason (rather than just changing forest fortunes) for the move to this village on the edge of a cotton and mining town - Wigan) or perhaps these families were friends/ had common ancestors. I havent come across Phelps or Nelms on any of my records but please do let me know if you find a Rhodes/ Morgan link.

(rather than just changing forest fortunes)

I suspect that was a major driver, to move the distance involved, - simple economic pressure. It is possible that an initial wave/group moved first and others followed. Possible that the move was from the Forest to Staffordshire, and then later to South Lancs.

I have evidence ( later) of Agents active in the Forest recruiting labour for the States etc.

Message for smashton
I have not done much tracing as yet of the Leadbeater side of the tree, only traced them as part the Grindle line in my tree. Here is what I have so far:

(Please note, I have used the spelling Grindle and Leadbeater to save confusion)

Frederick Leadbeater born abt 1845 in East Dean, died March 1915 in Gloucestershire. Q1 Vol 6a page 477 registered in Westbury on Severn
He married Susan Elizabeth Grindle, born abt 1843 East Dean, died March 1915 in Gloucestershire. Q1 Vol 6a page 477 registered in Westbury on Severn.

Known children so far:
James Leadbeater born abt 1869 Cinderford married Julia Emily George Bowkett born abt 1859 Blaisden Gloucestershire. They were married in 1893 Gloucestershire Vol 6a page 497 registered in Westbury on Severn.

Only known children so far were:
Florence Leadbeater born abt 1899 Cinderford
Frank born abt 1900 South Glamorgan

Back to children of Frederick and Susan Elizabeth Grindle
Elizabeth or Eliza Leadbeater born abt 1872 Cinderford. Died in Gloucestershire 1897 Q2 vol 6a page 140 registered in Westbury on Severn
John Leadbeater born abt 1875 Cinderford
Florence Leadbeater born abt 1877 Cinderford
Minnie Leadbeater born abt 1879 Cinderford

That is all I have at present. Jean Herbert

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=1158#p1158

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=798#p802

To continue the Leadbeater information that Slowhands has just put you in contact with here is some additional information. Are the Leadbeaters in the Phelps line of your tree (and therefore there is a loose familial connection between your ancestors moving to Wigan and my Rhodes/ Morgans) or have I confused things?

your Frederick Leadbeater ancestor is the son of James Leadbeater and Susan unknown (poss Sier).
James was baptised 1.2.1824 at Drybrook to James Leadbeater (7.9.1790 - name spelled Leighbeater) and Jemima (7.9.1785 Littledean - nee Morgan) Other siblings I have also found include George (26.8.1811) Timothy (11.9.1814), Abiah (3.8.1817), Eliza (17.1.1821), Frederick (14.5.1826) and Ephraim (25.5.1828)

Eliza - my ancestor goes on to marry William Morgan and have children William, Hannah, James, Hubert, Amos, Thomas, Leonard, Eliza, Mary, Emma and Alfred. After she is widowed she moves to Ince with Hannah (by then Rhodes), James, Alfred, and William.

James Leighbeater is in turn the son of James Leighbeater and poss Sarah
Jemima is the daughter of James Morgan and Ann

Thanks to Danny Haines for helping me with the parish records links (although most are now transcribed on this website)

Hi Jim
I do indeed have Phelps and some Leadbeaters in my tree, along with Herbert - Grindle - Brain and other names related by marriage. One tries not to get sidetracked but this is very hard as when information is given by fellow researchers I enter it in my tree and off we go again with another branch of the family. Thank you for the information. Jean Herbert

I was about to give marriage details for James Leadbeater but I had made the wrong link.

Mike

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=798#p802

Yes I think you're right. It's confusing as the subsequent generation marries Grindall. But, I believe James Leadbeater marries Susan Grindle 29.11.1845 and then she dies 10.10.1865. He then marries Susan Sier 17.11.1870.

I Have only recently come across this site and am finding it very helpful but may I just correct one thing it was Elizabeth Phelps b 1867 who married Edward Shone not her sister Mary

Elizabeth & Edward married 1 Jan 1887 at Howe Bridge Parish Church Atherton witnesses were Alfred Phelps (brother) & Mary Ann Biggs or Briggs

Elizabeth & Edward had 12 children (one of those children being my mother in law)

Elizabeth died in 1947 aged 80 in Atherton and Edward died in 1926 aged 60 in Atherton

I believe the Mary Ann Biggs to be Elizabeths sister Mary based on the following

Marriage: 25 Feb 1882 St Michael and All Angels, Howe Bridge, Atherton, Lancashire, England
John Biggs - (X), 28 Collier Bachelor of Sumner St., Atherton
Mary Ann Phelps - 20 Spinster of Rivington St.
Groom's Father: William Biggs, Bricklayer
Bride's Father: John Phelps, Collier
Witness: Charles Virgo, (X); Mary Ann Davies
Married by Banns by: W.R. Clayton, Incumbent
Register: Marriages 1878 - 1906, Page 15, Entry 30
Source: Microfilm in Leigh Public Library

Record_ID: 6785
Entry_Number: 243
Year: 1849
Month: Jun
Day: 30
Parents_Surname: NELMS
Child_Forenames: Helen
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Hannah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Bradley Hill
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: J G Smythies
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 31
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St Johns

Ellen was living with mother Hannah, a widow, 1861

Bob Jenkins

Hello,
Concerning John Phelps in Wigan-his daughter Annie married William Thomas Miller. You can read the story on page 10 of www.wlct.org/heritage-services/pf37.pdf.
These people are in my husband's family. Annie is my husband's grandmother.

I also am of the opinion that John Phelps married Helen Nelms or Helen Nelmes of Bradley Hill. Her parents were John Nelmes and Hannah Tyler. This is my opinion based on a census in Wigan in 1901 where Ellen's birthplace is given as Bredley Hill.

I hope this helps,
Mrs Miller

Thank you for this information.

Heres the answer :-

Year: 1849
Month: Apr
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: NELMES
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age: Full Age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Quarryman
Grooms_Residence: Bradley Hill
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Nelmes
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Quarryman
Brides_Surname: TYLER
Brides_Forenames: Hannah
Brides_Age: Full Age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Bradley Hill
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Tyler
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Samuel
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Mason
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Thomas Nelmes
Witness_2: Ann Addis
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: T. G. Smythies
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 30
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John

1851
John Nelmes abt 1822 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Nelmes abt 1815 St Brevials, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Helen Nelmes abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann Nelmes abt 1849 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
James Nelmes abt 1831 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Nephew East Dean, Gloucestershire

1871
Hannah Nelmes 60
Ellen Nelmes 22
John Nelmes 14
Susan Nelmes 10
John Nelmes 1

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>