Does anyone know if the Elizabeth Morgan, who married Alfred Hulin in 1853 is the daughter of John Morgan, labourer and Jane Smith

For completeness:

Record_ID: 44604
Entry_Number:
Year: 1853
Month: May
Day: 28
Grooms_Surname: HULIN
Grooms_Forenames: Alfred
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: painter & glazier
Grooms_Residence: St Briavells
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: HULIN
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: labr
Brides_Surname: MORGAN
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Tintern
Brides_Fathers_Surname: MORGAN
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: publican
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: James Hulin
Witness_2: Elizabeth Brown
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Tintern Monmouth
Soundex_Groom: H450
Soundex_Bride: M625

Elizabeth of full age (21) so born abt 1832 or (much!?)earlier.
Resides Tintern, father John, publican.

Alfred Hulin presumably a similar age.
Painter & glazier, resides St Briavels, father James, labourer.

There are only 8 PRs in total for Alf Hulins on this site.
The most likely Baptism is in 1830, but the 1798 one is not impossible.

There are approx 80 Baptisms for Eliza Morgans in this same period....

In my opinion purely on face of it the most likely one is:

Record_ID: 198577
Entry_Number:
Year: 1831
Month: Nov
Day: 20
Parents_Surname: MORGAN
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Margaret
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Tintern
Occupation: sawyer
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Tintern Monmouth
Soundex: M625

It's the ony one in Tintern although thats not evidence alone of course.

Re your suggestion:

Record_ID: 26933
Entry_Number: 163
Year: 1826
Month: Oct
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: MORGAN
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: Batchelor [s
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: of this parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: SMITH
Brides_Forenames: Jane
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: of this parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of George Thomas
Witness_2: Mark of Hannah Thomas
Other_Witnesses: Thomas Hulin Clark
Officiating_Minister: Walter Henry Hill Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P278 IN 1/10
Page_Number: 55
Parish_Chapel: St Briavels
Soundex_Groom: M625
Soundex_Bride: S530

Presume this is the Baptism you mean ?

Record ID 59543
Entry Number 591
Year 1832
Month Jul
Day 22
Parents Surname MORGAN
Child Forenames Eliza
Fathers Forenames John
Mothers Forenames Jane
Mothers Surname
Residence Fence
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister H.H.Morgan Vicar
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P278 IN 1/5
Page Number 74
Parish Chapel St Briavels

(I've heard of sitting on the Fence, but never living on one ! ;-)

So yes your suggestion is entirely possible, looking up the 1851 Census for pre-marriage family groups may help?

Do you have any other links (eg thro witnesses) that may help confirm ?

Thanks Jeff

I can see from this record that this Elizabeth Morgan's father was a Publican,this isn't the trade I expected her father to be in, so maybe I have the wrong Elizabeth Morgan!

Julia

Hi Julia, you're welcome. There's certainly plenty to chose from !!

What trade were you expecting ?

(Bear in mind in those days almost anyone could become a publican, perhaps after "retiring" from another completely different trade thro injury etc..)

1861 Census St Briavels

HULIN

Alfred - 31 - born St Briavels
Elizabeth - 29 (c1832) born Monmouth, Tintern
Jane - 7 - born Monmouth, Tintern
Alfred - 4 - born St Briavels
Susannah - 2 - born St Briavels

?

possible

1841 Census, Monmouthshire, Tintern Parva

King HEAD

MORGAN

John - 35 - Victualler & Sawyer - all born in County
Margarett - 30
Elizabeth - 9
William - 7
Alfred - 5
Sara Ann - 2

1851 Census, Monmouthshire, Tintern

Carpenter Arms

MORGAN

John - 47 - Publican - all born Tintern
Margaret - 45
Elizabeth - 19
Willm - 16
Alfred - 15
Sarah Anne - 12
Margaret Emma - 7

Hi Jeff

Well in all the other census report John Morgan was an ag, labourer, I am pretty sure that the John Morgan I am looking for was not the John Morgan who was living with the Hulins.

The marrriage certifcate did not show their parents would the Banns have this information?

very many thanks

Julia

Their Witness, George Thomas is Jane's brother so I know this is the correct marriage,

I'm not certain if I have the correct John Morgan' birth, I am pretty sure he is the son of John and Elizabeth Morgan baptised 26 December 1802 - Tintern, but, there are are a number of John Morgans born in the Forest around that time, I have eliminated
pretty much all of them, just wished there was someway to confirm John and Elizabeth as his parent.

Two of thie children have the names John and Elizabeth, so maybe I am on the right track,

The 1841 census says he was born in St Briavels- 1802

1851 - Alvington- 1801

1861 Alvington/Newland- 1804

many thanks for any insights you might have!

Julia

Hi Julia,
sorry no brainwaves here yet ! Also you have the advantage on me having Census access, I didn't know there was a John Morgan living with the Hulins although that does seem to make a strong case for him ?.
Re your points:

1. I see from MPG's census's that John Morgan publican was also a sawyer in 1841. I wonder if he'd been a sawyer who perhaps thro illhealth or lack of work had moved into the inn trade as many men dream of..in 1851 he's running the Carpenter's Arms, did he name it so ?. Apparently not, according to the Wye Valley Hotel site the pub & name dates back to at least 1835.
http://www.tintern.org.uk/hotel.htm
I know there are other Carpenter's Arms in the area, Wye boatbuilding history perhaps, key before the roads & railways ?
While Googling the pub I got the Ancestry freepages http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/tintern/tintmarr1837-1945...
These give several Morgans including "your" marriage but sadly no more detail at all. Also has the marriage of Alfred Morgan, publican John's son, in 1858. This quotes Alfred as a Labourer and John back to being a Sawyer again. In other words he went where the work was. Personally I don't read too much into the "lab" or "ag-lab" term, I think it a broad "wherewithall" term covering a multitude of possible & typical rural jobs which were probably in the majority in Tintern then, be it at the wharf, the cider mill, in the woods or fields.

2. As far as I know the Banns are applied for by the couple hoping to marry, although it's quite possible a parent's name might get onto a letter or note given to the Minister perhaps, but what chance that surviving ?. I imagine it would have been recorded in the Minister's "daybook" but it becomes irrelevant so unwanted once they're married. I guess the Marriage Certificate is just reflecting what official records there are still available, or in this case not.

This forum thread is essentially asking the same question, with no conclusive answer, but worth reading ?
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-23163.html