Help with parents/grand parents of Martha Ann Jones born 01.11.1857 please and married Oliver Phelps born 04.-7.1856.

many thanks

Hi,
have you tried searching this site's PRs ?

From there, searched by name, this Baptism

Record_ID: 117204
Entry_Number: 166
Year: 1857
Month: Nov
Day: 1
Parents_Surname: JONES
Child_Forenames: Martha Ann
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Upper Lydbrook
Occupation: Woodfeller
Officiating_Minister: Temple Hamilton Chase
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: 20811
Page_Number: 21
Parish_Chapel: Lydbrook
Soundex: J520

So parents appear to be Thomas & Mary Jones.

Using the VERY usefull Advanced Search facility (icon at base of Search page), can find these Baptisms which I suspect are all the same family.

1856 JONES Martha, Thomas & Mary Anne, Aston Bridge Lodge, Woodman under the Crown, Lydbrook (I suspect this Martha died young as the name is repeated)
1857 JONES Henry, Thomas & Mary Anne, Terridge near Lydbrook, Woodman, Lydbrook
1857 JONES Martha Ann, Thomas & Mary, Upper Lydbrook, Woodfeller, Lydbrook
1858 JONES John, Thomas & Mary Ann, Sorridge Lodge, Woodman, Lydbrook
1860 JONES Hubert, Thomas & Mary Ann, Serridge Lodge, Woodman, Lydbrook
1862 JONES Anne, Thomas & Mary Anne, Sorridge Lodge, Forest Keeper, Lydbrook
1864 JONES Alfred, Thomas & Mary, Lydbrook, Keeper, Lydbrook
1866 JONES William Thomas, Thomas & Mary Ann, Serridge Lodge, Woodman, Lydbrook

Again by searching the PRs on this site can find this Marriage, yes the names are common but very few are woodmen,

Record ID 64630
Entry Number 62
Year 1852
Month Nov
Day 23
Grooms Surname JONES
Grooms Forenames Thomas
Grooms Age 26
Groom Condition Widower
Grooms Occupation Woodman under the Crown
Grooms Residence Astonbridge Lodge Lydbrook
Grooms Fathers Surname JONES
Grooms Fathers Forenames John
Grooms Fathers Occupation Woodman under the Crown
Brides Surname WOOLLEY
Brides Forenames Mary Ann
Brides Age 25
Brides Condition Spinster
Brides Occupation [not stated]
Brides Residence Rectory English Bicknor
Brides Fathers Surname WOOLLEY
Brides Fathers Forenames Henry
Brides Fathers Occupation Labourer
Licence or Banns Banns
Date of Banns 1852 Oct 31 Nov 7 14
Signature or Mark Both sign
Witness 1 Mark of Henry Wooley
Witness 2 Richard Jones
Other Witnesses
Officiating Minister John Burdon
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes Banns are in P138 IN 1/10 page 65.
Register Reference P138 IN 1/12
Page Number 31
Parish Chapel English Bicknor

Luckily I was using my Glos FHS 1851 Census cd, from which

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0117-0144 ED.3B NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0138 Schedule: 121

Address: Aston Bridge Lodge

JONES Thomas HD W 24 Keeper of Woods & Forests HEF Whitchurch (c1827)
JONES James SO U 2 Son GLS Staunton (c1849)
JONES Mary CI U 17 House Keeper GLS Staunton (c1834)

(So despite appearing at first to be a Lydbrook Jones so maybe one of my ancestors, sadly it seems not).

Presumably the housekeeper became his second wife ??..... see below

Again by using Advanced Search, inputting just the names can quickly get a tabulated output of all this site's Baptisms of all the Thomas Jones with father John Jones (from the Marriage Record). Clearly we're looking around 1825, but again this one stands out as the only "Woodman",

Record ID 78524
Entry Number 159
Year 1826
Month May
Day 14
Parents Surname JONES
Child Forenames Thomas
Fathers Forenames John
Mothers Forenames Hannah
Mothers Surname
Residence New Wier
Occupation Woodman
Officiating Minister Richd Davies Rector
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P310 IN 1/8
Page Number 20
Parish Chapel Staunton

So Thomas's parents are John & Hannah Jones.

And so on... eg heres his first marriage:

Record_ID: 20541
Entry_Number: 36
Year: 1847
Month: Jun
Day: 14
Grooms_Surname: JONES
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age: Of full age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Wood Cutter
Grooms_Residence: Staunton
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Jones
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Woodman
Brides_Surname: JENKINS
Brides_Forenames: Ann
Brides_Age: Of full age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Llandogo in the county of Monmouth
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jenkins
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Turnpike Gate Keeper
Licence_or_Banns: Certificate of t
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Magrett Jenkins
Witness_2: Richard Jones
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Richard Davies Rector
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P310 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 18
Parish_Chapel: Staunton
Soundex_Groom: J520
Soundex_Bride: J525

Some interesting/unusual occupations here...

Back to the housekeeper becomes wife theory:
SO if Mary Jones the Housekeeper in 1851 Census is born abt 1834, searching this site's PRs gives this "interesting" possibility.. but as the Marriage Record clearly shows his future wife Mary Jones was a Wooley, so it looks like he had been quite understandably sharing the Lodge with his housekeeper sister.

Record_ID: 78587
Entry_Number: 222
Year: 1834
Month: Jun
Day: 15
Parents_Surname: JONES
Child_Forenames: Mary
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Hannah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: New Wier
Occupation: Woodman
Officiating_Minister: Richd Davies Rector
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P310 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 28
Parish_Chapel: Staunton
Soundex: J520

You'll find the Advanced Search REALLY good, as you can input minimal info, even just part names etc (eg enter "Ta" to find "Tailer" "Tailor" "Tayler" etc) and still get several results. Click on a column heading and it will be sorted eg chronologically, all really quickly & easily.

thanks Jeff

I cannot find Marriage of Martha Jones on this site's PRs, but GlosBMD gives:

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
PHELPS Oliver JONES Martha Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office 1878 11 50

ie it was at the nearest Registry Office (I wonder why ?), so NOT a Church PR which is why was not on FoD PRs database.

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MainMenu.aspx

Sorry, must go now, happy hunting !

Yes, Marriage to Oliver June 1878 at a Monmouth Church in Wales. I think back then the boundaries between England and Wales were different slightly especially when dealing with BMD's in the Lydrook area.

Not a church but the Monmouth Register Office

PHELPS Oliver
JONES Martha
Forest of Dean
Monmouth Register Office
1878 11 50

Were they a non conformist family ?

1861 Serridge Lodge
Thos Jones abt 1827 Witchurch, Herefordshire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary A Jones abt 1828 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Martha Jones abt 1856 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry Jones abt 1857 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Jones Tabt 1859 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hubert Jones abt 1860 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

several possibles for father Thomas including

Year: 1827
Month: Apr
Day: 8
Parents_Surname: JONES
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Hannah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Doward
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: George Pyrke Rector
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AC 76/1
Page_Number: 47
Parish_Chapel: Whitchurch

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

All this information is correct, however I had previously realized from 1851 census that Mary born 1834 was his sister not his future wife. Thanks for this infomation

I believe this birth to be the correct one for him.

Hi again Sarah,
as far as I'm aware the national boundary between England and Wales in our area hasn't changed, it was and still is the traditional physical one of the River Wye. However what has changed is the local population has increased dramatically due to influx of workers as the industrial revolution "took off", this affected the Forest as a whole and Lydbrook in particular. As the population expanded so the local government (civic) Districts and Ecclesiastical Parishes changed & multiplied & their various boundaries with them. This makes family history research somewhat confusing, or at least that's what I found. I stand to be corrected but my rough understanding is this:

In the early days say late 1700s, before the population really "exploded", there was no church at Lydbrook itself, so we need to look at the PRs of churches such as nearby Bicknor, Walford, Ruardean & Newland. Indeed some Lydbrook folk crossed the Wye every Sunday to attend the nearest church at Welsh Bicknor. Lydbrook Church wasn't "opened" until 1851. This general lack of "normal" C of E Churches within the Forest is why the PRs show so many apparently different places of worship & religions, such as the Chapels & Circuits of various Methodists, Baptists, etc; this all confused & intrigued me having been brought up a standard C of E lad with no exposure or knowledge of Dean's rich religious history !
Before this the nearest sizable towns, which had existed for centuries so were the main local "civic centres", were Westbury On Severn to the east in England, and Monmouth to the West and just inside Wales.

In 1842 the Forest was split into West Dean & East Dean Townships for local government purposes. http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=1422

Hence Lydbrook was now governed from Monmouth just a few miles away and just across the national border, hence the local Census's and BMD records suggest Lydbrook people to be "Welsh", regardless of their true ancestral roots (altho clearly a lot of the Lydbrook workers may well have come across from nearby Wales, there's certainly a lot of us Jones' there !.)

Subsequently as the population within the Forest continued to grow, and towns such as Coleford expanded and new towns such as Cinderford were created, so the civic boundaries had to change too and new names of Civic Districts came along. At the same time new Churches were being built so new Parishes created.

The best way I've found to understand this is using the excellent Genuki site
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/monmouth.html

And for a good and interesting history of Lydbrook and explanation of the Parish Boundaries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydbrook

I do hope this helps you Sarah ? I must say when I first started in this hobby two years ago, the worst problem for me was trying to know where to lookup my records !? - what with the Forest in general and my dad's "home" area of Lydbrook in particular being located at the junction of two countries, four counties and Parishes & Districts that changed name too often for my liking !!
This wasn't helped by the fact that my childhood and even later years was in the Eastern side of the Forest, born in Cinderford, often travelling east towards Ross & Gloster etc for shopping trips and visiting relatives. Yes my Gran was in Lydbrook, but I'd not realised this was anywhere near Wales as such. That said, when I applied for my Driving Test in 1980 we had to travel to Monmouth to take it, a hint that Monmouth used to be a far more important centre for local government etc than might appear nowadays.
On t'other side of the coin, my sister lives nr Coleford and married a Coleford chap who, for his shopping and social trips, tended to travel west into Monmouth and beyond where his family background lay.

This makes me even more appreciate our great fortune in having this wonderfull internet site which manages to pull everything together into one central resource, thanks yet again to this site's owners and administrators !