The Boat Inn Redbrook (General)
by unknown, Monday, October 22, 2012, 14:11 (4410 days ago)
I am trying to find out if The Boat Inn was owned by my gg parents or leased,
they were Caleb George Brown and Mary Jane (nee Reynolds), George died in 1917, and Mary then went to marry William Henry Williams. Does anyone know if pub records are kept? I also have a inquest to add which found was in a newpaper article.
Thanks Julia
The Boat Inn Redbrook, and other local breweries
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 22, 2012, 17:39 (4410 days ago) @ unknown
Hi Julia,
my grandparents were tenant landlords at a Forest pub for 25+ years so I have an interest in beer beyond the obvious ! Records re pubs and inns vary enormously, I suggest contacting the Boat itself would be a good start as they may well have records.
http://www.theboatpenallt.co.uk/aboutus.html
Even if they don't know about past landlords they may know whether the pub was tied to a particular brewery or not within a particular timeframe. My guess is it's more likely your ancestors were tenants rather than owners, but that is just my guess.
Normally the great Easywell website is THE place to look, often this lists past landlords, I think gleaned from the various Trade Directories.
HOWEVER and most unusually the entry for the Boat is very small with no history info at all!
http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/AllGlosPubsDatabase/AllGlosPubs_view.php
(suggest search "Redbrook" to minimise the hits to page thro, cannot do direct links)
The above site's owner/author Geoff Sandles has just released a book abt FoD pubs, I'm sure the Boat will be mentioned due to it's unusual & scenic location, try looking it up in the library perhaps if you live locally. His earlier book about Glostershire Pubs offers very minimal coverage of the FoD, it's only reference to Redbrook is wrt "the Redbrook Brewery founded 1825 by Oliver Arthur Burgham and sold to Ind Coope of Burton on Trent in 1923 along with twentytwo local pubs", the Boat is not one of those named, so....??. The brewery photo shows a building that looks larger/different to me than the Boat Inn itself.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/289413
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/fod_variety_2/pages/page_5.html
My other usually very helpfull book abt Forest Pubs by Heather Hurley has much detail abt the Redbrook pubs but, again, virtually nothing abt the Boat !. However it does say that at its industrial height Redbrook was known to have "consisted largely of inns !", perhaps an exaggeration for mid C19th Redbrook..
It also says the Redbrook brwery was founded by Richard Sims, then sold to James Hall until his death in 1844. It was eventually sold as a "genteel residence and commodious malthouse" to Thomas Burgham (see Burgham webpage below). There was another local brewery in Upper Redbrook operated by the Ansleys, flour mill owners.
This book states that The Boat Inn was supplied by "Ind Coope & Allsopp Burton Ales in 1939". So it seems like a probable source of info re your ancestors would be the Ind Coope archives which I guess are at Burton Upon Trent.
Next place to look would be the local Trade Directories, although this will usually only tell you when a person kept a pub, rather than who owned it. Please see
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35123
Please can you advise how you know your ancestors were at the Boat, do you have Census records that show this, or ?. I cannot find Caleb in a quick look at this site's PRs, I'm asking to find out when they were at the Boat ??.
From Ancestry free search page(sorry no full subscription)
"England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915"
Name: Caleb George Brown
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1877
Registration district: Monmouth
And dies 1917 as you say.
So sadly my suggestion of Trade Directories may be less practical as the more recent C20th ones usually are not free to access.
I see but cannot read his entry in the 1891 Wales Census, is this where the Boat is mentioned ?. This seems (to me) to be the nearest "fit" for the couple in the free to view 1911 Census, but this George is described as a Tinworker(like much of Redbrook) albeit living in Penalt (ie the Boat Inn part of Redbrook)
1911 Wales Census, Birches Penalt.
George Brown Head abt 1878 33 Male Married 11yrs Tinworker-Boxer Parkend Glo'shire England
Mary Brown Wife abt 1878 33 Female Married 11 yrs Llandogo Monmouthshire Wales
Willie Brown Son abt 1901 10 Male School Redbrook Monmouthshire Wales
Albert Brown Son abt 1905 6 Male Redbrook Monmouthshire
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2353/RG14_31766_0157_06/407683?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fs...
Hope this helps a little,
Jeff
ps altho abt a different family, this webpage may be of interest re C19th Redbrook and the Brewery.
http://www.burgumfamily.com/pages/pl%20redbrook.html
The Boat Inn Redbrook, and other local breweries
by unknown, Monday, October 22, 2012, 20:32 (4410 days ago) @ Jefff
Hi Jeff
Thank you for your reply, I will look into those sites.
My family have always said my ggrand parents were at the Boat and yesterday i was given a newspaper clipping stating the following. Redbrook Man Sudden Death
A Redbrook man named Caleb George Brown died with tragic suddenness on Friday evening the 28th ult. He was the licensee of The Boat Inn, on the Penallt side, and not long before his death had taken a boat across the river. The inquest was held by Monmouth Coroner Mr Herbert Williams st the Bush Inn Redbrook.
Mrs Mary Jane Brown said her husband was 39 years of age , a tinworker and licensed victualler. He consulted Dr Payne, of Coleford, two years ago, and sometimes had medicine from him. He worked as usual on Friday. About eight o'clock he was sitting at a table reading a paper, she noticed her husband lean forward, she went to pass and found he was dead.
Dr J Rowland of Coleford said the deceased was his patient. he suffered from heart trouble and other ailments. He sent him some medicine on Friday. His opinion was death due to heart failure. Mr T Williams pit-wood haulier, Penalt said he was
present in the house when Mr Brown died. He could corroborate the statements of Mrs Brown. The jury of which Mr E J Smith was foreman, returned a verdict in accordance with the medical evidence.
Julia
The Boat Inn Redbrook, and other local breweries
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 22, 2012, 21:31 (4410 days ago) @ unknown
Hi Julia,
thanks for your most interesting albeit sad reply. Searching this forum shows a few drownings at Redbrook, which initially surprised me as the Wye "seems" quiet compared to the Severn that I do know can be very treacherous indeed, however on retrospect it's perhaps not surprising given it was a busy village then plus the river can be difficult especially in winter, I recall visiting the Boat back in the late 90s not long after the river flooded it !.
So he was the licensee in 1917, must admit I'd assumed it was a little before that and he was maybe a WW1 victim. Do you know which month Caleb drowned ? (I too have paper clippings, sometimes the date is clipped off too unfortunately).
Given the tinworker reference I guess I was correct wrt the 1911 Census ?. If so then he hadn't been at the Boat too long it seems. I would have thought running a pub in a busy industrial village would be a fulltime job, especially given his heart problems which presumably had kept him out of the War, sadly not luckily it seems.. I guess the tinworker reference perhaps should have read "retired" ?. I wonder if he was in temporary charge of the Inn while the normal incumbent MAY have been at war ?.
Either way this doesnt answer your question, not sure we ever will, although my gut feel is that he was not the pub owner.
Have you researched him on Ancestry etc, they seem to have all sorts of useful items on top of the norm?. I presume you don't have a Will, or don't know what their sons were doing, normally they'd be helping run the pub so would continue after Caleb's death ? Maybe there are property sales records which would indicate who owned the Inn, especially if it were found to be "for sale" after his death ?.
I guess you do need to access the official Licensing Records which I imagine would be in Monmouth in this instance, if they exist, I'm not sure at all but I imagine they would include an indicator as to the pubs owner ?. That said, my searching (see below) gave a few examples that discussed the "minefield" of LV regulations, and suggests there have been many supposed "National Associations" of Licensed Victuallers etc etc, so there seems to be a lack of clarity as to which, if any, is the definitive National body who might hold old records etc etc....
By Googling "Licensed victuallers family history" I've found several promising hits, many to forums including Ancestry. (I've found dozens of excellent speciallist websites in this manner in the past and can only suggest you try the same).
These webpages look a good start for both of us, if you do find anything helpfull at all please do keep us posted, thanks, Jeff.
http://www.sfowler.force9.co.uk/page_27.htm
http://www.buildinghistory.org/buildings/inns.shtml
Once again careful (not too many search words!) searching TNA may be worthwhile.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=O29803
The Boat Inn Redbrook
by Bailey , Monday, October 22, 2012, 19:09 (4410 days ago) @ unknown
The Boat Inn has quite a history, look to their web page which records as follows:-
"The pub has been owned by the Jelf family for over 350 years; here is a little bit of their history.
Legend has it that when King Charles II was fleeing from his enemies after the battle of Worcester in 1651 a royal subject called Jelf ferried him to freedom across the River Severn at Ashleworth. In gratitude, the monarch granted to Jelf and his descendents the right to Ashleworth ferry crossing alongside their old farmhouse-turned-inn. However, other records suggest that these privileges may have been given to the Jelfs even earlier, by Prince Edward of March (later King Edward IV) when we was fleeing from his enemies of the House of Lancaster in about 1460. Certainly the family was in the village at a time when one John Jelfes was identified as an Ashleworth leaseholder in 1450. Six of his male descendents were listed as being military age in 1522.
The pub was passed down from father to son until the early twentieth century when sisters Irene and Sybil Jelf inherited it. They ran it together for over 25 years until the death of Sybil in 1990. Irene then ran it partnership with her niece Jaqueline Nicholls. Jaqueline was passionate about Real Ale and worked hard to create a reputation for serving good beer, wining numerous CAMRA awards@...(worth contacting the current landlords - and is worth a visit).
There are numerous accounts of the Jelf family of Ashleworth who managed the inn, the ferry, fishing rights along the Severn (look to British History on-line for anecdotes)
Kind Regards
Bailey
The Boat Inn Redbrook
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Monday, October 22, 2012, 20:11 (4410 days ago) @ Bailey
Thankyou Bailey,
however I think you are referring to the wrong Boat Inn, Ashleworth being on the Severn above Gloster so some way from Redbrook/Penalt on the Wye near Monmouth.
Cheers Jeff
The Boat Inn Redbrook
by Roger Griffiths , Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 17:09 (4409 days ago) @ Jefff
I believe the Boat inn was strictly in Penallt Monmouthshire. Landlord in 1901 was Thomas Rowland and William Henry Williams in 1920. Source Kellys Directory Monmouthshire.
WH Williams is mentioned in OP's opening request.
The Boat Inn - Penalt 1911
by m p griffiths , Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 17:44 (4409 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths
1911 Wales Census
Boat Inn, Penalt, Nr Monmouth
6 rooms
Elizabeth JENKINS, Widow - Innkeeper - born Penalt
Albert JENKINS, grandson - 15 - born Tidenham
Elizabeth ADDIS unmarried niece - 25 - Assisting in Business
Thon MACE - 14 - Ferry Boy - Assisting Ferry Boat to river
next door to them is Henry DAVIS and his family (Station Master, Post Address: Near Boat Inn Redbrook Station Penalt)
Mary Jane Brown/WILLIAMS, Innkeeper The Boat - Penalt 1919
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 18:47 (4409 days ago) @ m p griffiths
For thread completeness as Julia already knows;
Record_ID: 41430
Entry_Number:
Year: 1919
Month: Mar
Day: 3
Grooms_Surname: WILLIAMS
Grooms_Forenames: William Henry
Grooms_Age: 50
Groom_Condition: widower
Grooms_Occupation: groom/gardener
Grooms_Residence: Newland
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Williams
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Edwin
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: tailor
Brides_Surname: BROWN
Brides_Forenames: Mary Jane
Brides_Age: 40
Brides_Condition: widow
Brides_Occupation: innkeeper
Brides_Residence: Penallt
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Reynolds
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: William
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: labourer
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: William John Reynolds
Witness_2: Emily Reynolds
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Penallt Monmouth
Soundex_Groom: W452
Soundex_Bride: B650
So the inn-keeping stayed within the family after the drowning, but still no proof as to actual ownership.
Record_ID: 68990
Entry_Number: 117
Year: 1868
Month: Feb
Day: 2
Parents_Surname: WILLIAMS
Child_Forenames: William Henry
Fathers_Forenames: Edwin
Mothers_Forenames: Margaret
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Clearwell
Occupation: Tailor
Officiating_Minister: H L Perry Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 15
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex: W452
I see William Henry Williams is a very popular name, I'm afraid I cannot find his previous marriage or indeed his entry within the 1911 Census.
His possible burial ?
Record_ID: 284691
Entry_Number: 532
Year: 1959
Month: Nov
Day: 14
Surname: WILLIAMS
Forenames: William Henry
Residence: East Street.St.Briavels
Age_at_death: 86
Officiating_Minister: A.Victor Selk.Vicar of St.Briavels
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: Died Nov 11 1959
Notes:
Register_Reference: P278 IN 1/31
Page_No: 67
Parish_Chapel: St Briavels
Soundex: W452
Elizabeth Jenkins, Innkeeper The Boat Inn - Penalt 1911
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 19:03 (4409 days ago) @ m p griffiths
I see Elizabeth was born abt 1846 according to this Census form, so aged 65 in 1911 and due for retirement perhaps if circumstances allowed ?. Unfortunately another very common name locally so hard to pin down. This could POSSIBLY be her but ??.
Record_ID: 170524
Entry_Number: 2372
Year: 1915
Month: May
Day: 12
Surname: JENKINS
Forenames: Elizabeth
Residence: Widow
Age_at_death: 64
Officiating_Minister: E H Brice
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) Palmers Flat N[ea]r Coleford (2) South Div[ision] : Adults Gr[ave] (3) U 6 (4) Consecrated (5) West Dean
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25 / 204 / 30
Page_No: 18
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery
Soundex: J525
If this is our Elizabeth, this leaves the Boat in need of a new landlord before 1917, enter Caleb & Mary Brown.
The Boat Inn Penalt, near Redbrook
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 18:16 (4409 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths
Hi Roger,
yes you're correct in this respect, apologies for not making myself clearer. Although Redbrook village is on the Glostershire side of the Wye, the Boat Inn is somewhat isolated across the river under the wooded hillside of Penalt, Monmouthshire, Wales. I presume it was named The Boat as the old ferry was needed to access it in pre-railway days, as I suspect most of it's custom would be industrial workers from Redbrook.
Nowadays it is sometimes considered "within" Glostershire as it's carpark and main access route for most of it's custom is still from the Redbrook village side of the river, but to get from there to the pub means a walk across the disused railway bridge across the Wye. This walk can be a little "tricky" on a winter's night particularly if returning from "a while" in the pub, although thankfully there is a safe footpath and no trains of course, and clearly considerably safer than in Caleb Brown's day !.
This old panoramic photo of the village shows the Boat and nearby cottages at the extreme left end of the rail bridge, the majority of the village houaing etc cannot be seen as it's beside/behind the photographer's viewpoint on his (Glos) side of the River.
http://www.forestprints.co.uk/chapel_lane.htm
Some good recent photos of the bridge here
http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/bridges/gallery/penallt.html
The map within the aforementioned Burgham website shows the area's layout.
http://www.burgumfamily.com/pages/pl%20redbrook.html
The Boat Inn Redbrook
by Roger Griffiths , Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 19:50 (4409 days ago) @ Jefff
As to ownership the first place to look is Gwent County Records. 'Duties on Land Values per Part 1 of the Finance Act 1910'.
The records are in 2 parts, the large scale OS map of 1901. All buildings and parcels of land are numbered. Then there are lists of occupiers and owners against the relevant numbers on the maps.
For instance, Soudley, East Dean. 3459 Occ. Thomas Mason, Owner Alton Court Brewery Ltd (ie Courage)description White Horse.
Gwent Archives
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 22:31 (4409 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths
Thanks Roger, very helpfull indeed.
I see the old Monmouthshire aka Gwent Records are based at Ebbw Vale so not a bad drive at all from the Forest across the Heads of the Valleys Road,
full contact details etc etc here:
http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/plan-your-visit/gwent-archives/
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Archives/index.html
Thanks to you kind sir my intended 2013 FH tour of industrial South Wales has an addition to the itinerary.
Gwent Archives
by unknown, Monday, October 29, 2012, 20:54 (4403 days ago) @ Jefff
thank you both for your help, all this will keep me busy, thank you again