I am tying myself in knots with this one.

I have a Francis Herbert Grail born 1871 to Frederick and Elizabeth Grail. In searching for a marriage I can only find Francis Albert Grail, who married Emily Parker in 1893. In some Census records I find a Francis A as listed with Frederick and Elizabeth.

When searching for Francis in 1911 census for birth date of 1871 there is one result for Frank.

This leads me to believe that all three are actually the same person.

Can anyone prove this for me or lead me to where I am going wrong.

How often do you see "Herbert", and how often do you see "Albert"? My guess would be that one or the other of them is a transcription error. They both end in "bert", which was apparently legible, but a stylized "A" or "H" could easily be confused with one another.

Do any family sources tell you which name is correct? If it is possible, check the "original" document rather than a transcription and see if this theory makes sense.

I just reviewed the census images, and the records on this site as well. They definitely list "Herbert" on the BMD index and his baptism. The "A" is very difininite in both census' where it is recorded.

If I were to make a guess, it would be that he is the same person, given the fact that the parents names are the same, as is the location.

On my own father's birth certificate, his middle name is wrong. (The clerk wrote what he thought he heard, phonetically. The names look nothing like one another, but if you sound them out, you can see how it happened.)

The only troubling thing here regarding Francis, for my theory, is that both the BMD and his baptism record "Herbert". Is it the silent "H" rearing its head again?

Anyone else care to weigh in on whether they think it likely?

Gloucestershirebdm

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

Birth Registration:

GRAIL
Francis Herbert
Father's Surname : GRAIL
Mother's Maiden Name: EVANS

Year: 1871, Forest of Dean, Chepstow, Lydney

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GRAIL/Mother's maiden name EVANS, Chepstow, Lydney

Frederick - 1879
Laura - 1874
Margaret Elizabeth - 1868
Samuel - 1876
William Edgar - 1893

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FOD records

Marriage at Woolaston - 11 February 1868

Frederick GRAIL, full age, Bachelor, labourer, residence: Woolaston
father: Richard GRAIL, labourer
married
Elizabeth EVANS, full age, Spinster, Domestic Servant, residence: Woolaston

witnesses: John PRICE and Mark Ann GRAIL

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FOD records

Marriage at Tidenham: - 29 July 1893

Francis Albert GRAIL, age 21, Batchelor, labourer in foundry, residence: Tidenham

father: Frederick GRAIL, labourer

married

Emily PARKER, Spinsister, age 20, residence: Tidenham

father: George PARKER - labourer

witnesses: George & Georgina PARKER + Samuel GRAIL; **

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1881 Census, Tidenham

GRAIL

Frederick - 36, born Glos. Avington
Elizabeth - 34 - born Woolaston
Margaret - 12 - ditto
Francis - 9 - ditto
Laura - 6
Samuel - 5
Frederick - 1

Thanks for your responses. However, I can not see either Fracis Albert or Francis Hebert in the 1911 census. All I can see is a Frank. Ican not trace where Frank has come from which leads me to think Frank is the same person as Francis.

Ancestry Death Index

J/A/S Qtr 1938 - Forest of Dean

Frank A GRAIL

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FOD records

Burial at Tidenham - 27 July 1938

Frank Albert GRAIL, 36 High Street, Aylburton, Lydney
age 68 years

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GRAIL: Mother's maiden name PARKER (as per wedding in previous reply)

Edith Emily - 1901, Chepstow, Lydney
George Francis - 1894, ditto

1911 Census

Stroat, Tidenham, nr Chepstgow

GRAIL

Frank - 38 - married 17 years, two children born alive, two living, born Woolaston
Emily - 37 - born Tidenham
George - 16
Edith - 10

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Military Records on Ancestry

George GRAIL, age 21, Stroat, Tidenham (farm labourer)

1915

Reg. No: 23327

Reg. Name: Wilts

(20 images) - inc. acknowledging receipt of British War Victory Medal (Royal Berks Regt)

Next of kin: Frank GRAIL, Stroat, Tidenham (father)

The enumerator lists what they are told, or what they think they are told.

"Frank" is a very common nickname for Francis, and is likely what he was called.

In my own family, when their stepfather gave their names to the enumerator, Charles George, normally called Charlie, became "George", and Elizabeth Ann became "Bessie". It made them a bit tougher to find in the census.

Since the supporting documentation is consistent, I think you can probably safely assume that "Frank" is your Francis.

At some point, one of my husband's ancestors suddenly went from being Jean-Baptiste, with a wife named Flavie, to John, with a wife named Fanny. Their death certificates, with info filled out by the children who knew them as John and Fanny, are also at odds with their birth records.

So, transcription error, recording error or what may be, I think Francis Herbert, Francis Albert and Frank are all one in the same, based on other evidence. (Thanks, MP!)

So true. I am related to the Grail's through marriage. Francis to Frank was the least of it. Gussie, Polly etc. etc. a nightmare in famly history terms.

I was named Sandra Patience after my grandmother, who was Patience Nellie. The catch-- her siblings called me "Little Nell". That is going to give some future family historian nightmares.

Thanks to all who have contributed to my query. The information is most helpful. That closes out another myster I had with the Grails. Iam sure there will be another soon, but I have more research to do before posting another query.