Does anyone know if Death Certificates were ever issued to families of decesed prisoners of war or soldiers by the army or Red Cross during World War 2
Terry

Hi Terry,
thanks for your interesting query, sadly my straight answer is "I don't know".
That's largely as most of my military research has been WW1 and earlier; I have no direct family experience of WW2 casualties plus the records being more recent are very difficult to obtain thro official MoD routes unless one is a direct close relative. My past experiences & tonight's initial internet searches haven't shownup any form of formal Certificate - I presume you mean something along the lines of the socalled "Death Plaque" issued by the Government after WW1 ?. http://www.heroesofhull.co.uk/pages/memories/WW1/DeathPlaque.php

Hopefully other forum members can help out ?

Meanwhile as you probably know there are still other ways if you want to research a casualty of WW2. This site gives an idea of what records are available, but being written by a professional researcher it doesn't give many clues as to how/where...
http://www.militaryarchiveresearch.com/BritishPoW.htm#World War 2

A good start for beginners is shown on this usefull guide http://www.ww2cemeteries.co.uk/research.htm

The Commonweath War Graves Commission website is truly excellent and free to use, so clearly the startpoint, altho be warned their search engine is a definite example of "less is more" to obtain best results (inputting too much data can sometimes erroneously show no findings ?!)
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx
Some usefull background to the CWGC is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWGC#Second_World_War

The National Archive is also worth searching, again its best to only enter surnames and firstname initial at first, then flog thro the potentially long list of findings - this search engine also has a frustrating knack of not finding a person at all, even if you input the correct full name & regiment etc first time around... If you have it the person's number is the best element to search with.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/war-deaths.htm

The excellent British Red Cross Website may also help you, see
http://www.redcross.org.uk/What-we-do/Finding-missing-family/Other-organisations/Missin...
Its worth mentioning that altho there are extensive records for POWs from the European war theatre, records of those captured in the Far East are far more sketchy to put it mildly.

As with this FoD Forum, the following is a very friendly & helpfull speciallist forum which I strongly recommend; searching it can be a very usefull source of reference, but a polite enquiry may well gain free info from a paying subscriber to one of the speciallist Military websites, so you'll maybe gain free access to the official British Army WW2 Roll of Honour, etc.
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/

There are of course subscription websites that may give quicker and more complete answers and it seems not too pricey, an example is http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/

I believe all UK Public libraries offer free access to Ancestry.co.uk, this contains some military records, my local (Middlesex) libraries also offer access to the Find My Past site which carries different and often more comprehensive Military Record sets.

Finally, simply Googling a person's surname along with their unit, say, may occasionally yield surprisingly good results; military history is a very popular subject and there are huge amounts of detailed information available online across several speciallist forums and websites.

Hope this helps, good luck !

Deaths in WW2 for Army, Royal Air Force, and Royal Navy personnel were registered in a similar way to civilian deaths. One can assume a certificate was issued to the nominated next of kin.

Copies of such death certificates can be obtained from the General Register Office in the usual way. Name, rank, age, and service number are stated, but of necessity details of cause of death would be brief, such as - killed in action. Likewise the exact place of death would not be stated.

The deaths are recorded in indexes - G.R.O. War Death Indices Army Other Ranks (1939-1948), ditto Officers (1939-1948), R.A.F. All Ranks (1939-1948), Royal Navy Ratings (1939-1948) and Royal Navy Officers (1939-1949). Merchant Navy is a bit trickier being under BT334 Registers and indexes of Birth, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea (No doubt trickier to order a copy too). Royal Marines come under Royal Navy.

The indexes can be searched on findmypast in the Military section, "Armed Forces Deaths ...." to obtain the necessary reference numbers.

Thanks Harry, I knew someone far more expert than I would know.
Forgive me as I'm not the brightest spark, just to make it perfectly clear am I right you're saying that these Death Certificates are the exact same format/system as would be issued for all Deaths registered in the UK regardless of cause or timing, ie they're not "special" ones issued at Wartime (like the WW1 Death Plaques) which was what I was mistakenly thinking of ?

Re searching FindMyPast, as a reminder to me I've just revisited the National Archives link I posted earlier, I see they clearly have a tie-in with the FindMyPast site, their search link for the British Army Roll of Honour 1939-1945 is actually a straight link into the FMP website, namely
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/army-roll-of-honour-1939-1945-search-start.action?product=ARH
As usual this will give a list of possible "hits" but buying credits (or hopefully not via the public library) will give further detail.

This reminds me of some mistakes I made which might help other researchers when I first tried searching my elderly mother's cousin "Ken Wright" who she thought had maybe been an RAF man. When I first searched him 18months ago I was confused as could find no likely hit on any of the websites I looked at including the above TNA/FMP ones. It really didn't help that I was inputting too much info, I strongly advise only search surname and first name initial, in true forces style. Searching "Ken" will not find any "Kenneths", but "K" finds nearly twenty...

Unusually because of my keen military interests I was searching him before I knew his full details such as a second name !, subsequently confirmed from the usual sources as I now know the full family tree. This rather helped as I was surprised just how many Kenneth Wrights were listed with a few from Glostershire !. Similarly the site asks for place of birth, but often the Military Records won't reflect this, and the quoted "Place of Residence" will often be the County barracks, in this case Bristol, not the actual family Forest home. Even visiting their home village didnt help me, his name is on the Village Memorial but perhaps oddly no hint as to which service. http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/143380

I subsequently concluded he served in the Army. Despite searching several sites including the Roll of Honour, in truth I've found most information has come from the excellent (and free) CWGC site, once I'd found him that is (needed full initials!). As an example here is his entry:

WRIGHT, KENNETH LEONARD
Rank:Private
Service No:5183494
Date of Death:19/05/1940
Age:21
Regiment/Service:Gloucestershire Regiment
2nd Bn.
Panel ReferenceColumn 57.
Memorial: DUNKIRK MEMORIAL
Additional Information:

The site lists 30 K.Wrights within WW2 Records alone, buried across the World. One is an RAF man in Singapore I saw before I knew Ken had a second name, but luckily for us this chap was soon discounted - within the "additional information" section for him the site quoted his parents & address in Derby, so not our man. Such next of kin details is the norm for this last line, but sadly many entries don't have anything here at all. Helpfully the age at death matched our Ken's known 1919 birthdate.
Its particularly nice that the CWGC site gives full details, maps and photos of each superbly-kept Cemetary, in this case within easy visiting distance for us to pay our belated but heartfelt respects.

I do hope other researchers may benefit from this site and maybe my pointers in the same way we did.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2768087/WRIGHT,%20KENNETH%20LEONARD

From this: "The DUNKIRK MEMORIAL stands at the entrance to the Commonwealth War Graves section of Dunkirk Town Cemetery. It commemorates more than 4,500 casualties of the British Expeditionary Force who died in the campaign of 1939-40 or who died in captivity who were captured during this campaign and who have no known grave."

By re-sorting the entries for the whole Cemetary we can find over sixty Glosters, of which fifteen died with Ken on the 19th May, but most at the end of May probably at Cassel(below).

Further searching of the above dates & places led me to the full Regimental Diaries of the Glosters, which for completeness I have included below. It seems our Ken died heroically as part of the Dunkirk rearguard, at the small town of Cassel just inland from the evacuation beaches. By coincidence we were there 15 years ago during our annual French holiday, a stopoff as it was renowned as being atop of a prominent hill with a large windmill! commanding extensive views across this generally flat area of Northern France. Despite these obvious clues I had no idea of it's military importance over many centuries or it's relevance to my family:

THE GLORIOUS GLOSTERS
--------------------------------

CASSEL

The 2nd Battalion was withdrawn from Escault 23rd May and reached Cassel on May 25th. They were to hold the western half of the town with the 1st Buckinghamshires holding the eastern half. Some platoons were sent to hold important positions, the most notable being a partly built blockhouse on the Dunkirk road held by No.8 platoon under 2nd Lieut. R.W. Cresswell. 27th May 'A' Company commanded by Major W.H. Percy-Hardman, went to Zuytpene village, which covered the approaches to Cassel from the west. Their orders were simple. They were to hold the line at all costs to allow the B.E.F. to be evacuated from Dunkirk.

25th May - fairly quiet day. Battalion worked on improving defences.

26th May - German patrols probe towards Cassel & driven off.

27th May - Cassel was attacked in strength from three directions. 'D' Company (Captain A.P. Cholmondley) in the South West corner of the town, was heavily attacked. 'C' Company (Captain E.H. Lynn Allen) fought off a strong infantry assault.
At 0800 Zuytpene was assaulted from the air & then tanks & infantry. The position was soon surrounded. 'A' Company fought from house to house, withdrawing to the centre of the village. By 1800 the position was desperate. The survivors had gathered in one building. When the Germans got into the garden & able to throw grenades into the house Percy-Hardman ordered his men to surrender.
At 1800 the attack began on the blockhouse held by No.8 platoon. They were immediately cut off. With no rations & the blockhouse on fire they held out for 4 days. Finally on 30th May, with the Germans on the roof Cresswell ordered his men to break out & try to reach Dunkirk. But escape was hopeless & the survivors were captured. Both Percy-Hardman and Cresswell received the Military Cross.
Quartermaster Captain R.E.D. Brasington got through to Cassel with the last supplies. He was then ordered to take the transports to Dunkirk. He was later awarded the M.C.

28th May - Shelling & mortaring of Cassel. 'B' Company (Captain H.C. Wilson) attacked from the rear, but attack was repulsed.

29th May - more attacks, mostly on 'B' Company. All were driven off. That afternoon a message came through that the defenders were to begin withdrawing to Dunkirk. But Cassel was totally surrounded & very few men escaped to Dunkirk.

Around 100 men of the 2nd Glosters made it home. 5 officers and 132 men were dead. 472 taken prisoner.
The Battalion won a CBE (Brigadier Somerset), DSO (Colonel Gilmore), and Military Crosses to Captain Lynn Allen and Major C. Campbell, a DCM and 11 MM's.

Meanwhile just a few miles away:

The 5th Battalion

May 26th the 5th battalion moved to Ledringhem and Arneke villages, 4 miles north-west of Cassel. 'B' company (Captain C. Norris) held the south and east of the village, HQ Company (Major A. Waller) in the village. 'A' Company (Major D. Biddle) and 'D' Company (Captain E. Rockett) took up forward positions at Arneke. 'C' Company (Captain H. Mason) held a road junction between the 2 villages.

May 27th - German tanks & guns were seen moving around the flanks of Ledringham. Both villages came under shell & mortar fire, followed by assaults against Arneke. After heavy fighting 'A' and 'D' Companies withdrew to join 'C' Company. They had destroyed 5 German tanks & 5 armoured cars, nine by just one anti-tank gun.

May 28th - Ledringham was shelled and cut off. All the companies were now in the village and totally surrounded. A message arrived to begin withdrawing. But the Germans were now assaulting the village & beginning to penetrate. The village was on fire & the Germans had made it into the churchyard. The cry of 'Up the Glosters!' was heard, after 3 bayonet charges the Germans were driven back. Each charge was led by a different officer and all 3 were seriously wounded - Captain Norris, Lieut. Dewsnap and 2nd Lieut. D. Norris.

The Germans attacked again and Major Waller led a successful counter-attack, but Waller was killed. Colonel Buxton was wounded in the leg. Just after midnight the battalion started to withdraw. The seriously wounded were left with 2 medical orderlies to await the Germans. This left 13 officers and 130 men, many of them wounded. They marched for 6 hours, finally reaching Bambecque at 06.30, where they were met by the 8th Worcesters. The Adjutant of that Battalion wrote:

"During the early-morning stand-to I saw a wonderful sight. Round the corner as I came out of Battalion HQ appeared the survivors of the 5th Gloucesters. They were dirty and haggard, but unbeaten. Their eyes were sunken and red from lack of sleep, and their feet as they marched seemed to me no more than an inch from the ground. At their head limped a few prisoners.... I ran towards Colonel Buxton, who was staggering along, obviously wounded. I took Colonel Buxton indoors....assuring him again and again that his men were all right."

The Battalion was driven to Rexpoede, commanded by Captain Mason and the Adjutant, Hauting. On 30th May they marched to Bray Dunes and were shipped back to England. About 500 men made it home. They had lost 2 officers and 85 men killed. The Battalion was awarded a Military Cross and 7 MM's.

During these battles it should be remembered the Glosters had very few and often ineffective weapons against the surrounding enemy tanks, not to mention low supplies of water, food etc.

============================================================================

Other Glosters who died during the 1940 Battle for France are listed here, many during the Dunkirk retreat. http://glosters.tripod.com/40roll.html

RIP Ken, and all who have been wounded or died for freedom across the World.

Jefff,
The certificate is on a form very similar to the normal death certificate but the categories are different. I have one for a WW1 Army death but the certificate form is used for WW1 and WW2. I cannot post an image of it. It reads:-

CERTIFIED COPY OF ENTRY OF DEATH
Registration of Births Deaths, and Marriages (Special Provisions) Act 1957
Return of Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and men of [.......Regt.]
Killed in action or who have died whilst on Service Abroad in the War of [for WW2] 1939 to 1948
First column - Regtl. or Army number
Second column - Rank
Third column - Name in Full (Surname first)
Fourth column - Age
Fifth column - Country of Birth
Sixth column - Date of Death
Seventh column - Place of Death [Country would be stated]
Eighth column - Cause of Death [e.g. killed in action]
Below the above columns - An Entry relating to the death of [man's name stated in full]
CERTIFIED to be a true copy of an entry in a Service Department Register.
Given at the General Register office, under the seal of the said Office, the....day of..........

Thanks a lot Harry for clearing my muddled mind, very interesting, atb Jeff.

re "my muddled mind"... !!!

Those sharper than I will have noticed a foolish error in my above posts relating to the last days of my mum's cousin Pte Ken WRIGHT, 2nd Btn Glosters. Despite the CWGC site clearly stating he died on 19th May, I have recounted the story of his Regiment's battle at Cassel almost two weeks later !
Apologies for this, in my enthusiam to illustrate what might be found on the internet I copied over some old unfinished research without properly checking it first. As I feel it may be of interest to others I'll leave the post for now with a view to amending at a later date.

On tonight's re-searching "19th May 1940 Glosters" on the net, one of my first hits interestingly took me to a photo of another member of Ken's unit. Private Michael Wilfred Burns from Mitcheldean was killed in action at Ath in France on 19th May 1940, leaving a wife and young son; this photo may well have been the last time they saw him...
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Mitcheldean-Dean-Glos/Pte_M_W_Burns_Glos_Regt.html
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2277201/BURNS,%20MICHAEL%20WILFRED

I've found that Michael (from Mitcheldean) would almost certainly have been a mate of Ken (from Longhope), not only were they near neighbours but they were distantly related thro' marriage.

The Glosters own website has this regarding those few days when Ken Wright and many others of the 2nd Glosters lost their lives;

"By 16th May the two Gloucester battalions were in positions near the Waterloo battlefield of 1815, but the French army had already been fatally broken, and 2nd and 5th Battalions received the order to retreat. The retreat was in some danger of turning into a rout. Captain Lovett wrote of 18th May:-
“. . . we proceeded by Motor coaches – our destination was Bruyelle. Some coaches went via TOURNAI where the Bn. sustained about 90 casualties from bombing . . . I received a rude awakening when I was having a doze on the journey. I was hauled out of the coach and thrown into a ditch by my Coy. Commander — we were being dive bombed but nothing came anywhere near us, the attack being on the column about 100 yds behind us. The M/T discipline was extremely bad during this journey as there was a lot of unnecessary passing and racing between coaches of other units.”
https://soldiersofglos.com/announcement/cassel-and-ledringhem/

Further searching has found this extensive history which mentions the 2nd & 5th Glosters amongst many other units. It transpires Ath is actually in Belgian and was part of an Allied defensive line along local rivers & canals, setup to hopefully stem the overwhelming fast "Blitzkreig"(lightning war) invasion that had first sliced thro' Holland and Belgian just 9 chaotic days earlier.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-NWE-Flanders/UK-NWE-Flanders-4.html

More searching found this Diary of the Oxfordshire & Bucks Light Infantry, who fought alongside the 2nd Glosters, it adds extra info to illustrate this everchanging and most arduous situation.
http://www.lightbobs.com/1940-1bucks-france--belgium.html

Similarly the 7th & 8th Battalions of the Worcester Regiment, with more men of Dean, were fighting alongside the 5th Glosters. This excellent site includes interesting Diary extracts and so on about all their actions during the Battle for France in May 1940, in particular the section "an Officer's View".
http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/h_dunkirk

------

Additional CAREFULL research to come...

Thank you all for your input and suggestions.But I do have quite alot of information on my Uncle Private Verdun James (army no 5185838) Verdon was born in Bream 22nd November 1918 son of Charles Fredrick James and Sarah Jane nee Meek. He enlisted into the Gloucestershire Regiment on the 16th October 1939. After training he was posted to the 5th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment Territorial Army and arrived in France 15th January 1940. I have narrowed it down that Verdun was captured either at Ledringham or Arneke in Belgium on the 27th May 1940 while slowing the advance of the German army and giving time for the evacuation at Dunkirk. Verdun was then taken to Stalag V111B at Lamsdorf in Poland Now named Lambinowince He was then allocated to a work party, and as he was a miner he was transfered to camp E27 near Hindenburg now called Zabrze and worked in a coalmine. Verdun died 15th July 1944 in the Kappshaft Hospital in Hindenburg Where he was burried .After the War his body was exhumed and moved to the Commonwealth Cemetry called Krakow Rakowici Cemetry.
The reason I was asking about Death Certificates is that the International Red Cross just states that Verdun died from illness, and I would like to know what illness as the Family has never known what he actually died from.
Thank you all again
Terry

Hi Terry,
you're welcome, no problems at all. As I wrote I had a suspicion you'd have known at least some of the history, but still thought the various sites might have been of interest to others if not you, plus I learned too so I'm gratefull to you and HarryBrook for that. The Red Cross website was new to me, but it seems like you've already dealt with them.

Your sad story is very interesting, thanks so much for sharing it with us. It seems ridiculous to me now but I hadnt realised that British POWs in Germany were used for working parties, I suppose my knowledge of POW camp life is too influenced by films, plus the only POW research I've attempted was my Uncle in Burma and thats a whole different situation wrt official records, or not. I've visited WW2 rocket sites in France which were built by many thousands of longsuffering slave workers including civilians from Belgium & Holland, but never a mention of British POWs.

Given the timing your Uncle was imprisoned I suspect you may never find any more "official" details, I hope not but I suppose "illness" probably appears all too often on such reports and could maybe have been used in all sorts of situations... In fact its not inconceivable such a generalism may have occurred if a WW2 Bevin boy had died in Wales, say. I also suspect that an official Death Certificate would still use the same source re Cause of Death, in this case the same source as the Red Cross, such an abnormally high number were being produced during wartime so...
That said errors can occur at anytime. When my father died in Gloster Hospital in 1992, his death certificate initially had an incorrect cause of death given strictly speaking and my mother insisted we went thro the official routes to get it ammended, to clarify that it was the specific drugs used and not the general overiding illness. So in wartime under difficult circumstances its understandable I guess that vague statements were made.

I do hope you can find out more, best wishes, Jeff.