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Looking for any information on John Smith born in Coleford, Forest of Dean in about 1834. He married Priscilla Roof (possibly her name could have a different spelling). They had a number of children - John, Freedom (Vedam), Maria, Henry, Priscilla, Aaron and Maryann.

They may have been travellers, but there is no evidence of them with regard to the Forest of Dean traveller sites. I believe they may not have been travellers originally, but took to the road after living in Gloucestershire for some time. I could be wrong about this.

John Smith may have a Scottish connection. Any information on John Smith or Priscilla Roof would be welcome.

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For Starters... ? has this family been discussed before

Gloucestershirebdm have the record of

Freedom SMITH - mother's maiden name ROOF - 1862 Forest of Dean Coleford

1891 Wales Census

Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Morriston

SMITH

John - 52, Travelling Hawker - born Forest of Dean
Presilla - 52 - born Forest of Dean
Vedam - 28 - ditto
Maria - 22 born Glam. Cardiff
Maryann - 17 - ditto
Aaron - 15 - born Bridgend

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To my knowledge this family has not been discussed on this site. I have only just joined Curious Fox so I would certainly be interested to know if anyone else is researching this family.

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Picking this information off Ancestry Chat (any information you have would save time)

1871 Census, Pantag

Travelling Caravan, found by roadside at Pantymoile, Panteg

SMITH (Ancestry message suggests name BROUGHTON : changed his name after a scandal)

John - 37 - Licensed Hawker, born Glos. Coleford
Priscilla - 33 - born Wilts, Chippenham
John - 13 - born Glos. Little Dean
Freedom - 8 - born Blakeney
Priscilla - 6 - born Glam. Cardiff
Maria - 4
Henry - 1

also gives... the 1901 census, for Congleton, Chester

Lime Kiln Lane

Aaron SMITH - 24, Licensed Hawker, born Cardiff, Wales
Priscilla SMITH - 22 - born Fife, Scotland
----

There is a Priscilla ROOFE - on Ancestry - January 1838, Bicester, Oxfordshire (both a baptism and a Prescilla ROOFE death)

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I have found John Smith and Priscilla on the 1871 and 1891 census records for Wales.

I am unable to find them on the 1881 census. I believe that Priscilla died in Cardiff in 1894. The family was then living on Cardiff. I think they were also fairground show people.

What I would like to establish is where Priscilla Roof was born. The only ones I can find other than those you have mentioned are in America.

There was a John Smith who was born in Coleford in 1834 whose father's name was Daniel. He was a carpenter and had Scottish connections. My John Smith reputedly had Scottish connections. However, I have no way of verifying this.

John Smith is probably the worst name to research.

Thanks for the information.

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John Smith is probably the worst name to research.

Thanks for the information.

It probably is the "worst "name, however that is why we ask that all context is shared so that we can help narrow down the search / effort http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=9711

Freedom and Smith are associated with Travelling families, as would Green Bottom / Littledean as an area
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=7391
1881 3 tents in Green Bottom
Pridy Smith70
Faith Smith45
Lea Smith25
Keziah Smith26
Nepthane Johns22
Susan Smith21
Mark Johns19
Shady Johns
Mathew Butler30
Emma Butler11
Snipey ? Butler5
Mathew Butler
Bessie Butler7
Albert Butler6
Lucy Smith2

The following census evidence supports that for your john SMITH
and probably expains the "gaps" in their Census trail, esp pre 1861 where
experience says it has been harder to find Travelling families. With a "SMITH" surname you might easily assign your "line" to another family simply on the basis of an apparant "fit" - caution is required and if possible multiple sources i.e. any real certificates you can gather.

SMITH Freedom
SMITH ROOF
1862 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 18 65

Name:Freedom Smith
Date of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep 1862
Registration District:Monmouth
Inferred County:Monmouthshire
Volume:11a
Page: 22

Name:Priscilla Smith
Date of Registration:Jan-Feb-Mar 1864
Registration District:Cardiff
Inferred County:Glamorgan
Volume:11a
Page:253

Pontymoel (south of Pontypool) http://www.geograph.org.uk/showmap.php?gridref=SO2800

1871 Travelling caravan Roadside PontyMoile Panteg / nr Upper race
John Smith 37 Coleford Glos Licenced Hawker
Priscilla Smith 38 Chippenham Wilts
John Smith 13 Littledean Glos
Freedham Smith 8 Blakeney Glos
Priscilla Smith 6 Cardiff Glam
Maria Smith 4 Cardiff Glam
Henry Smith 1 Cardiff Glam

1881 ?

Llangyfelach (north of Swansea) http://www.geograph.org.uk/showmap.php?gridref=SS6498

1891 on Neath Road ( not a house) Llangyfelach / Swansea
John Smith abt 1839 Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Llangyfelach, Glamorgan Travelling Hawker
Presilla Smith abt 1839 Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
Vedam Smith abt 1863 Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
Maria Smith abt 1869 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
Maryann Smith abt 1874 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Llangyfelach, Glamorgan
Aaron Smith abt 1876 Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales Son Llangyfelach, Glamorgan

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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"Desperately Searching John Smiths"...

After fruitlessly trying to assist with the above thread, as a last resort I tried searching the free Welsh Newspapers Online site.
Unfortunately still no luck finding your Smiths, but I did find the following article from Cardiff's "Evening Express" daily paper of 1st July 1898 which I hope you enjoy.

"SEARCHING FOR SMITH.
Did you ever try to find a man by the name of Smith in the city directory? I hope your experience was not mine. I knew the man's address, but wanted to ascertain his first name. Little did I appreciate the task before me. At first I hurriedly glanced over the lists of Smiths, and after turning over twelve pages of them without find- ing the man I wanted it began to dawn on me that I had a job on my hands. Taking off my coat I sat down and went to work carefully and systematically, beginning with Mrs. A. Smith, canvasser, and ending in the course of half an hour with Smith and Co.
Still I didn't come across the particular Smith I wanted. So I re-traced my work. counting each as I went back. Fourteen hundred and twenty-seven Smiths I counted, and still I hadn't found the right one! Then I went through a long list of Smiths and Smyths, six columns of Schmidts, three columns of Schmitts, a half-column of Schmitz, a dozen Schmids. I threw the book down in despair. There I had spent an hour and ten minutes looking for a name I was morally certain was somewhere in the directory.
No, the name was there and find it I would, if I had to go over every name in the whole directory. So I waded through the Smiths again, and Eureka! there it was in the midst of a tremendous batch of John Smiths. I closed the book in triumph, feeling greater than if I had sunk the whole Spanish fleet."

This transcription is from a newspaper article here
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3277285/ART84/priscilla%20smith

If nowt else it shows others have been frustrated trying to find a John Smith, but their persistence finally pays-off. By coincidence the place & date suggests they MAY have been searching YOUR John Smith, but probably not.
Eitherway, I do hope you find yours too !

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Jeff,

Thanks for your intriguing response. I have looked at some of the newspaper articles . Gypsy Smith is definitely not the Smith I am researching nor is the John Smith in the 1881 census as the children's names do not match.

I am not quite sure why you think the person in the article was researching the same John Smith.

Did you actually find he page concerning the John Smith he found? I have not used the free Welsh newspapers online before. Does the number in the link you sent indicate the page I should read?

Many thanks.

3719 views

Hi Regis,
I'm glad you found my post of interest, however I must apologise for not making myself entirely clear. What I tried to say was that despite my searching different members of YOUR Smith family on various FH databases, after a pleasant hour I still found nothing to add to the above thread, ie no-one definitely from YOUR family, that hasn't already been mentioned. Like you and I'm sure MPG I searched the 1881 Census in depth, but no luck at all. However as they appear to be travellers this didn't surprise me at all. SO what next I thought ?.
Sometimes searching Old Newspapers can throwup links to one's own family, altho' for most of us I suspect, certainly me, these are usually vague and not direct relations/ancestors except if they appeared in the local Courts or met untimely deaths ! - there were certainly no significant front page "movers and shakers" in my tree that I've found.

I searched the Welsh papers site because it's entirely free and because your family spent a lot of time in South Wales, I didn't necessarily expect any close hits given how many John & Priscilla Smiths were in the area in Victorian times.
I had hoped the above link to the site would take you directly to the single article that I also copied in full, but it seems it didn't ?. The link still works for me but I think you've proven what I had sometimes wondered, ie the link works JUST for me because my pc still has the relevant "cookies" in it further to my original search, but for anyone else maybe not ??.

Eitherway, apologies for not making myself clearer, NO despite the happy coincidence# that it was the right subject and particularly time and place, I found that article entirely by chance while randomly searching for "John Smith". I posted it purely as I thought it might amuse you, I certainly didn't think it was hinting at YOUR specific John Smith. In truth it's quite probable, I guess, that the original article was a piece of humourous fiction albeit based on real observations ?. Either way I thought it nicely summed up the predicament you're in.

I have now amended the last line of my post accordingly.

Re your mention of a Gipsy Smith, I'm sorry but I don't know where this has come from, I cannot see such a name anywhere in this thread or within the newspaper article ? Presumably this is where my link has "just" taken you to the initial results pages(s) of my search, from which the above article is just one of those many "possibles" ?. It's for you to decide whether any of these many hits are actually linked to your family.

I hope that clarifies things, good luck with your searches, Jeff

# Then again, was it coincidence, or was it fate ???.... :-)

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Looking again at the Ancestry Forum (NVLNI - contributor) has the birth certificates of both Aaron and Freedom SMITH - As Freedom Smiths' mother's maiden name is ROOF from Glosbdm- - not sure if Aaron's mother's surname is also ROOF or spelt ROOF.

This is the birth information given from a Contributor on Ancestry forum with this quote ' Other certificates may hold alternative information.

As suggested, these certificates combined, should give, mother's maiden name, father's name and occupation, plus home address.

SMITH Freedom: Monmouth 11a 22 - Sept 1862

SMITH Priscilla: Cardiff 11a 253 - Mar 1864

SMITH Maria: Cardiff 11a 249 - Mar 1867

SMITH Henry: Cardiff 11a 260 - Dec 1869

SMITH Mary Ann : Cardiff - 11a 212 - June 1873
SMITH Mary Ann : Cardiff - 11a 242 - June 1873

SMITH Aaron - Bridgend 11a 607 - Mar 1875

----

On the 1871 Census - John SMITH gives the age of 37 - c1834 - born Glos. Coleford

On the 1891 Census - John SMITH gives the age of 52 - c1839 - born Forest of Dean

----

This is a John SMITH age 5 on the 1841 census for Newland

Whitecroft

David SMITH - 30 - Cabinet Maker, not born in County
Hannah SMITH - 35 - Dressmaker - born in County
John SMITH - 5 - born in County
Thomas SMITH - 2 (looking at Glosbdm - could possibly be Thomas Hawkins SMITH - mother's maiden name HAWKINS)

The address for the next house is Coleford

-----

On the 1851 Census for Newland, Coleford
Market Street

SMITH

David J - 46 Carpenter, born Pembroke
Hannah - 43 - all born COLEFORD
John - 14
Thomas - 12
Margaret - 8
Ann - 6
Harriet - 4
George - 4 months

For Records

David SMITH - Bachelor - residence: St Briavels

married

Hannah HAWKINS, Spinster, residence: St Briavels

10 August 1834

witnesses: James HAWKINS, and Thomas HULIN (Clerk)

----

David & Hannah SMITH - have two John's christened at Coleford

John - 21 June 1835 - (David : Cabinet Maker)
John - 19 March 1837 (David: Carpenter)

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That's excellent work M !

Searching John's father "David J Smith born Pembroke aged 46" according to the 1851 Newland Census:

From LDS, these seem a very good fit for that David, but Sarah not Hannah ?

"England and Wales Census, 1881"

Name: David J Smith
Age (Original): 74
Gender: Male
Birth Year: 1807
Birthplace: Wales
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Ex Assistant Overseer
Address: ?
Event Place: West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1342259
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 5225 / 25
Page Number: 15
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head David J Smith M 74 Wales
Wife Sarah Smith F 63 Churchill, Gloucestershire, England

"England and Wales Census, 1871"
Name: David Jones Smith
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1871
Gender: Male
Age: 63
Relationship to Head of Household: Self
Birthplace: South Wales, Pembrokeshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Monmouth
Sub-District: Coleford
Parish: West Dean
County: Monmouthshire
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Self David Jones Smith M 63 South Wales, Pembrokeshire
Wife Sarah Smith F 54 Churchhill, Sumersetshire

=============

"England and Wales Census, 1861"
Name: David Smith
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1861
Gender: Male
Age: 53
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birthplace: Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Monmouth
Sub-District: 1 Coleford
Ecclesiastical Parish:
Parish: Newland
Residence County: Monmouthshire

Name: Hannah Smith
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1861
Gender: Female
Age: 57
Relationship to Head of Household: Wife
Birthplace: Coleford, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Monmouth
Sub-District: 1 Coleford
Ecclesiastical Parish:
Parish: Newland
Residence County: Monmouthshire

FOR 1861 LDS ONLY GIVES ME INDIVIDUALS NOT HOUSEHOLDS, I CANNOT BE CERTAIN IF OR HOW THEY ARE RELATED, BUT LOOKS POSSIBLE
??

The previous post shows David J Smith's spouse is Hannah in 1841 & 1851, and perhaps 1861 to it seems, but after that ???...
Could this be her, not a rare name but correct age and locality from this site's PRs ?

Record_ID: 60384
Entry_Number: 173
Year: 1861
Month: Jul
Day: 16
Surname: SMITH
Forenames: Hannah
Residence: Coleford
Age_at_death: 57 years
Officiating_Minister: [not stated]
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death: [not sta
Memoranda: date of death 12 Jul 1861 at Coleford
Notes:
Register_Reference: 9
Page_No: 272214
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Baptist
Soundex: S530

Suggesting her birth abt 1804, as per 1841 & 1851 Census. ??

==========

So allowing,

From FreeBMD:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1862 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Badman Sarah Monmouth 11a 65
Jordan Emma Monmouth 11a 65
Smith David Jones Monmouth 11a 65
Waters William Henry Monmouth 11a 65

Ditto GlosBMD:

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
SMITH David Jones BADMAN Sarah Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office 1862 7 13

And hence they're together in the 1871 & 1881 Census's shown above.

In fact they may well have been "together" in the 1861 Census too !

"England and Wales Census, 1861"
Name: Sarah Bednam
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1861
Gender: Female
Age: 46
Relationship to Head of Household: Visitor
Birthplace: Churchill, Somersetshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Monmouth
Sub-District: 1 Coleford
Ecclesiastical Parish:
Parish: Newland Coleford
Residence County: Monmouthshire

As can be seen Sarah's quoted age varies thro the Census's, LDS gives a few possibles for her Somerset birth. Churchill is North Somerset near Weston Super Mud, so I prefer this:

"England and Wales Census, 1841"
Name: Sarah Badman
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1841
Gender: Female
Age: 22
Birthplace: Somerset
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Axbridge
Sub-District: Banwell & Weston
Parish: Worle
County: Somersetshire

Giving

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"
Name: Sarah Ann Badman
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 15 Jun 1817
Christening Place: Week-St. Lawrence, Somerset, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Thomas Badman
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Prudence
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03152-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1526792
Reference ID: item 6 p 7

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Somerset/towns/WickStLawrence.html

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Asa...

It may be coincidence but historically this part of Somerset has many Romany/Gipsy links, cannot find a link so maybe "old", but I found this via a few travel guides;

Wheelwrights Working Museum and Gypsy Folklore Collection
Webbington Loxton, Nr. Axbridge
Somerset BS26 2HX, ENGLAND

Only a few years later travelling from Monmouth/Coleford area to North Somerset became far easier & quicker via the Severn Railway Bridge.

Hope this helps, clearly these people need more thorough tracing thro' the Census's (which I can't do) to prove or disprove the possible lines, especially given that Sarah & Hannah Smith are not rare Forest names.

J

3906 views

Hi Jeff,

Many thanks for this information. Like me you obviously like a challenge. I will certainly follow up it up particularly the information on Priscilla Ruth. This is the first breakthrough I've had on her.

3667 views

Cheers Regis, yes I do like a challenge, much more fun than the household chores !. Please note I've added to the above post since you first saw it.

After much searching of LDS for a Priscilla Roof under many spelling variations, this is the best I can come up with, possibly worth further searching via Ancestry etc to more fully study the Census' (I can't) if only to then perhaps discard ?

"England and Wales Census, 1861"
Name: Priscilla Ruth
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1861
Gender: Female
Age: 19
Relationship to Head of Household: Servant
Birthplace: Southrope, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Cirencester
Sub-District: 3 Fairford
Ecclesiastical Parish:
Parish: Fairford
Residence County: Gloucestershire

???

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/Southrop/Gaz1868.html

So, Southrop's not "too" far away from the Forest and is on the old trading routes towards Oxford & London, so perhaps also on the travelling routes of John Smith ?

I know even in very recent years traveller's encampments with traditional horsedrawn vans can be seen in this area selling superb wood carvings on the A40. Plus of course the famous biannual Horse Fair at Stow on the Wold a few miles north.
http://www.cotswolds.info/blogs/gypsy-horse-fair.shtml

General searching of tinternet gives this perhaps relevant and at least very interesting website, detailing the 18th & 19th Century travels of a Smith gipsy family throughout East Glos/Oxfds/Wilts, and mentions a Baptism at Southrop in 1817....
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=11

Further searching found this 2009 Glostershire Schools publication "NATIONAL STRATEGY GYPSY ROMA TRAVELLER PROGRAMME". This admirable booklet is clearly aimed at helping promote good schooling for the various travellers' children and also good relations between their families and the local communities. Among other things it includes
"An email received from Headteacher at Southrop School:-
"We frequently see groups of Travellers camped on the roadside near Southrop,......."
http://www.irespect.net/news/documents/NEWSLETTER8small2.pdf

=======

Hope this helps, J

3820 views

Cheers Regis, yes I do like a challenge, much more fun than the household chores !. Please note I've added to the above post since you first saw it.

After much searching of LDS for a Priscilla Roof under many spelling variations, this is the best I can come up with, possibly worth further searching via Ancestry etc to more fully study the Census' (I can't) if only to then perhaps discard ?

"England and Wales Census, 1861"
Name: Priscilla Ruth
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1861
Gender: Female
Age: 19
Relationship to Head of Household: Servant
Birthplace: Southrope, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Cirencester
Sub-District: 3 Fairford
Ecclesiastical Parish:
Parish: Fairford
Residence County: Gloucestershire

???

Its a mis transcription of KIBBLE

1861
Name:Priscilla Keeble
Age:19
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1842
Relation:Servant
Gender:Female
Where born:Southrope, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish:Fairford
Town:Fairford
County/Island:Gloucestershire
Country:England

Registration District:Cirencester
Sub-registration District:Fairford
ED, institution, or vessel:5
Household Schedule Number:1
Piece:1784
Folio:68
Page Number:31

1851
John Kibble abt 1801Windrush, Gloucestershire, EnglandHeadSouthrop, Gloucestershire
Sarah Kibble abt 1809Eastleach, Gloucestershire, EnglandWifeSouthrop, Gloucestershire
Ann Kibbleabt 1835Southrop, Gloucestershire, EnglandDaughterSouthrop, Gloucestershire
Robert Kibble abt 1840Southrop, Gloucestershire, EnglandSonSouthrop, Gloucestershire
Priscilla Kibble abt 1843Southrop, Gloucestershire, EnglandDaughterSouthrop, Gloucestershire
John Kibble abt 1845Southrop, Gloucestershire, EnglandSonSouthrop, Gloucestershire

KIBBLE Priscilla
KIBBLE JONES
1842 Cirencester Northleach, Bibury & Chedworth 3 249

Name:Priscilla Kibble
Date of Registration:Oct-Nov-Dec 1842
Registration District:Northleach
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume:11
Page:347

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

3615 views

Thanks for clarifying that one S, despite ruining my best hopes.
Now that IS a mis-transcription !
Ah well back to the drawing board, or should that be a ouija board ?.
:-)

3641 views

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