I am looking for the birth and baptism of Mabel Price born 1894 in Gloucester it is possible she was born in a workhouse and baptised at St Cathrines in Gloucester. Her mothers name was Emily Price and On the census mabels place of birth states Gloucester.
Thanks Sue

Hi Sue,
welcome to the forum this lovely summer's day.

Are you able to give any more relevant details, please. I ask as a search thro the various websites shows quite a few births of Mabel Prices registered in Gloster area around about 1894, altho most have second names (albeit sadly not Emily) which MAY discount them ?
Does your information come from a Census, if so do you have more detail, all clues can be helpfull. How accurate is the birth year, for example ?
Do you know if Price is Emily's maiden name or married name ?
Any particular reason you suspect a Workhouse Birth, or St Catherines ?
What link is there with the Forest area, this may help us pinpoint your Mabel among the seemingly many possibles ?

Sorry to ask more questions, butt this looks a tricky enquiry to me.
Thanks, Jeff

???

There is a Public Members Tree on Ancestry (there is where the information has been obtained)

which has: Francis Charles KING - 1868 and Emily PRICE - 1872-1960

lists

Mabel 'KING' 10 April 1894, Gloucester

1901 Census,

25 Sinop Street

Emily KING - 29 - married - takes in washing, born Newnham Glos
Mabel - 7 - born Gloucester
Thomas - 3 **** (this birth is listed on the 'trees') as being born in Newnham
May - 10 months *** Gloucestershirebdm - KING May - mother's maiden name PRICE - Glos. St John the Baptist (which is before the marriage in 1901)

----

?

1911 Census, Monmouthshire, Newport
4 Risca Road, Newport, Monmouthshire

working as a Servant for Thomas JONES

Mable KING - 15, General Servant, Domestic, born Gloucester City

----

Gloucestershirebdm

Francis Charles KING - married Emily PRICE - Gloucester Register Office 1901

---

**** Fod Records

Baptism at Newnham - 12 May 1898

Parents: Surname: KING

Child Forename: William Thomas

Mother's Forename: not stated

Residence: not stated

Event: Baptism

Memoranda: (Irregularly Baptised in Schism) was received into the Church by W G Bailliee Vicar)

1911 England Census

Union Workhouse, Great Western Road, Gloucester

Page 6, Line 17: Emily King - Inmate - 43 - Married - 10 - 8 - 5 - 3 - Gloucester, Newnham [In 1911 Emily had been married 10 years, 8 children born, 5 living, 3 died]

Page 6, Line 18: Norah King - Inmate - 1 - Yorks, Sheffield.

Source: FreeBMD:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1909 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KING Norah Sheffield 9c 609

? On Freebdm - there is a Mabel PRICE - May/June/July Qtr 1894 - Chepstow - Monmouthshire.

Emily may be in the Chepstow, Workhouse

-----

Emily seems to have got around the country quite a lot - as by looking again at these trees on Ancestry, her two sons

Charles aged 7 and William aged 5 - both born London, Lambeth - are on the 1911 census at Tuffley Court, Gloucestershire, Whaddon - with other young children.

Charles & William embarked at Bristol 26th June 1912 on the Royal Line ship Royal Edward. They were aged 9 and 7 respectively and travelled on the same ticket as 10 year old Charles Talbot and 12 year old Frederick William Biggs. They were all contracted to land at Quebec, Canada. Source: Passenger Lists via Ancestry.

Thanks for your help it could be a possible as Emily had links with Monmouthshire.
Regards Sue

Thanks Geff for your reply Mabel was my Grandmother and she told my mother very little about her past only that her mothers maiden name was Emily Price and she was born in Newhham Gloucester her Grandfathers name was John Price and that they lived at severn st Newnham this tallies with census records.Emily had a daughter may King born in 1899 she married a Charles Francis King in 1901, mabel also had a younger brother registered as Thomas price who was born in a gloucester workhouse in 1897 in the parish of John the Baptist. The family moved around as Emily had a son Charles King born in 1904 in Lambeth London and a son William born same in 1905,In 1909 Emily is in the Sheffield workhouse with a baby daughter Norah the three boys are also in a workhouse, In 1910 Emily the boys and norah were sent back to a Gloucester workhouse Mabel stayed in Sheffield.The the boys were sent to Canada as work boys.As far as my mother knows Mabel had no contact with her mother mabel could never find her birth certificate it is possible she did not know she was illegitimate and she was looking for mabel King this is the name that is on her marriage certificate.I am also in touch with Charles Kings Son who as also done a lot of research and it was him who found the baptism for Thomas Price mother Emily Price at St Cathrines.Francis Charles King is also a mystery as I cant find him on any census Emily remarried in 1916 to a William Charles Keyse and the
certificate states she is a widow hope this all makes sense.
once again thanks for your help Sue

Hi Geff sorry I forgot to mention that Emily was working as a servant in Islington London in 1891 also I have not got any proof of her birth date only that she celebrated her birthday on the 10 april and her death certificate states born 1894.
Thanks again Sue

Hi,I am looking for the birth certificate for my Grandmother Mabel Price born abt 1894 Gloucester this information is from the 1901 and 1911 census,Her mothers name was Emily Price born 1872 in Newnham.I am certain my Grandmother was born illegitimate and possibley in a workhouse as I have found her younger brother Thomas Price born 1898 in the union workhouse Gloucester john the baptist dist. There is a mabel Price born in the union workhouse Gloucester in 1894 but the general register office say the mothers name is not Emily.Mabel mother Emily married a Francis Charles King in 1900 at the Gloucester Register office and Mabel and Thomas took the name of King.
Any help greatly appreciated suer

?

Gloucestershirebdm

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

(the marriage took place in 1901 not 1900 - Public members tree - 24 June 1901, Francis Charles King aged 33)

1901 Census, Gloucester, All Saints, (Allington)

25 Sinope Street

Emily KING - M - 29 - Takes in Washing, born Newnham, Gloshire
Mabel - Daur - 7 - born Gloucestser
Thomas - 3 - Gloucester ****
May - 10 months - Gloucester

-------

****

From Public Members Tree

London, England, School Admissions and Discharges 1840-1911 (on Ancestry)

Name: Thomas KING

Age: 7

School: St Andrew's School

Borough: Lambeth

Admission Date: 9 May 1904

Parent: Charles

Notes: Saint Andrew's School (0197) opened in or before 1882)

- Thomas then off to Canada - 28 May 1910 - aged 12

---

Child Surname: PRICE (Looking at Freebdm - this is Oct/Nov/Dec Qtr 1893 - it is St John the Baptist District)

Child Forename: Female

Mother's Surname: PRICE

Year: 1893

Office: Gloucester, St John the Baptist

Register: 27

Entry: 137

and

Child Surname: PRICE

Child Forename: Female

Mother's Surname: PRICE

Year: 1894

District: Gloucester

Office: Gloucester Kingsholm

Register: 24

Entry: 446

Thanks for the quick response the 1893 john the baptist is the one that the general register office say that the mothers name is not Emily,I willsend for the birth in 1894 Kingholm this looks promising as my grandmother always said she was born in 1894,
I will keep you posted once again thanks for you help
suer

Hi, Suer.

Depending upon where you are located, or more precisely where your grandmother was located when she passed, her death certificate may include her birth date, if not the location.

Death certificates in Massachusetts, US, for example, include the deceased person's birthdate, and the names of his or her parents and spouse.

The caveat: The deceased is not the one providing the information, and once in a while, the informant is not, in fact, particularly well informed.

Sandra

The 1911 Census shows Tuffley Court headed by John & Alice Leech, occupation "foster parents" with their two children; plus a "assistant matron", then 24 boys aged between 5 & 13. The adults are shown as "workers, Board of Guardians".

Researching Tuffley Court gives a very long history, including these small excerpts:

"By the early 13th century Gloucester Abbey had built an oratory at the site of Tuffley manor. In the early 17th century the manor house, Tuffley Court, was a substantial residence sometimes occupied by tenants under the Atkyns family. It was damaged by fire c1640 and had been repaired by Richard Atkyns for his residence by 1650 when it comprised six bays and two storeys and the outbuildings included a barn of nine bays. In 1672 Henry Norwood was assessed on 13 hearths for it. The house, which probably stood in the park on Robins Wood Hill, was uninhabited in 1764 and was demolished by the dean and chapter before 1785. It was replaced by a farmhouse below the hill in Tuffley Lane. That house, which became a boys' home in the late 1890s, was demolished in the mid 20th century."

Also

"From 1792 Thomas Mee held a lease of Tuffley Court and the manorial demesne. He enlarged the estate, which at his death in 1812 passed to his brother-in-law, the Revd. Richard Raikes. Richard (d.1823) was succeeded by his nephew, the Revd. Henry Raikes (d.1854). Tuffley Court passed to Henry's son Henry (d.1863), who was succeeded by his son H.C.Raikes. H.C.Raikes sold the estate of 480a. to Joseph Lovegrove in 1867. Lovegrove broke up the estate, selling most of it that year when R. W. Attwood bought the house and 270a.; Attwood sold the house and 109a. to E.T. Bullock in 1873. Bullock sold that estate to the guardians of the Gloucester poor-law union in 1896, and in 1930 it passed to Gloucester corporation, which used it for housing after the Second World War."

From: 'Gloucester: Outlying hamlets', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 4: The City of Gloucester (1988), pp. 382-410.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42323
Date accessed: 08 October 2013.

===============

I wonder if the above-mentioned Raikes family were related to the famous publisher and philanthropist Robert Raikes (1736-1811) who, following his involvement with the local Poor Law and the boys of the slums, felt compelled to set-up the world's first "State School" at his Gloucester "Sunday School" in 1780 ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Raikes

On the 1911 census, Emily says she had given birth to 8 children, 5 living and 3 dead.

?

How many of these children were actually registered? not sure how much it cost in 1894 to register a birth? My x Cousin was born illegitimate in Blakeney 1897 - his birth wasn't registered nor do christening records exist, although his death certificate gives his dob.

Going back to Thomas KING who is aged 3 on the 1901 census and the baptism on the FoD records at Newnham 12 May 1898 - William Thomas KING - no mother's name, irregularly baptised in schism, can't see a KING/PRICE baptism on GlosBDM for him. but can for May KING in 1900.

As Norah KING on the 1911 census aged 1 -(listed next to her mother, Emily KING, aged 43) was born in Sheffield, Yorkshire, they hadn't been in the Union Workhouse, Great Western Road, Gloucester - for very long - may be records exist which would explain more. 1911 census taken Sunday 2 April

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Gloucester/

Gloucester Archives: Holdings inc, Guardians' minute books (1835-1930)
---

Norah's birth certificate is on Ancestry

born: 7 December 1909 - 2 Smilter Lane, Sheffield UD

Norah KING

father: Francis Charles KING of 584 Brightside Lane, Sheffield - (Bricklayer) probably explains the different Counties for the births of the children

mother: Emily KING, formerly PRICE -

E KING mother - registered 21 December 1909

and gives the information on Francis C KING

1871 Census, North Nibley, Glos

Howley

KING

Thomas - 34 - Agent for Prudential Company - born Westbury, Glos
Sarah - 35 - House - born ditto
Raymond F KING - son 1 - born Weymouth, Dorset
Francis C KING - son 5 - born Hertford
Emily H H KING - dau - 3 - born Hertford

----

Fod Records

Baptism at Newnham

5 July 1874

Emily PRICE, parents John (labourer) & Emily

residence: Newnham

(tree says Emily was aged 2)

Re Norah being born in 1909 at "2 Smilter Lane Sheffield UD".

This address was apparently "infamous" in Sheffield as it was the site of one of the Sheffield Urban District(U.D.?) Workhouses, built at Fir Vale. The Workhouse also included the Smilter Lane/Herries Rd Children's Homes and is now the site of the Northern General NHS Hospital, the Smilter's Lane address has been discontinued from usage...
http://sheffieldindexers.com/NorthernGeneralHospital.html

Extensive history details, maps and photos here, scroll down to "Fir Vale"
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Sheffield/
And
http://www.judandk.force9.co.uk/workhouse.html#FIR

======

I recall the recent Una Stubbs edition of "Who Do You Think You Are" discussed the York Workhouse, Una's grandmother(herself illegitimate) gave birth there to her illegitimate son in 1903, so about the same era as Norah and not too far away. In her case she was only there a few weeks - the programme suggested it was quite common for poor expectant mothers to admit themselves into the Workhouse in this way so they could receive rudimentary healthcare during the childbirth, perhaps this was the case with Norah ?
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/episode/una-stubbs

Well spotted Jeff.

I too watched Una STUBBS - what a terrible place the Workhouse looked. Well done Emily to have some children survive, the poor woman must have been wretched!

Interesting

Francis Charles KING on the birth certificate of Norah - 7 December 1909 - was living at 584 Brightside Lane, Sheffield.

On the 1911 census, Mabel KING aged 15 - is visiting there - and a Tailoress, born Gloucester - so she's not the Mabel KING found earlier working in Monmouthshire i.e. 1911 Census, Risca Road, Newport, Mable KING age 15, General Servant, born Gloucester City.

Mabel is living with a William CHURCHARD, wife Alice Maud and family on the 1911 census at 584 Brightside Lane.

William and Alice are not living there in 1901 - they are at 27 Charlton Street, Brightside - and he was a Bricklayers Labourer - same occupation as Francis Charles KING, so they must have known each other through work.

584 Brightside in 1901 - James R HAUNTON - aged 38, born Norfolk - no sign on any census returns of Francis Charles KING !!! after 1871.

Hi, So far I have only found the births of Thomas b 1898 glos May b 1900 glo Charles b 1904 William b 1905 both in Lambeth London Norah b 1909 Sheffield.Emily and the children were abandoned by Francis King in 1909 and they all were sent to the Sheffield workhouse from there they were sent back to Gloucester and the boys were sent to Canada. I have found the workhouse records at the Sheffield Archives to support this.my Grandmother was never able to find her birth certificate but she knew she was born on the 10 april 1894.
Once again thanks for your help .
ps I was unable to find May on any workhouse records

Hi Suer,
without in any way wishing to knock your grandmother, who I'm sure was a very wise lady.....my nan was also very intelligent, quickwitted and numerate to the very end; which was when we found out that according to the Registers she'd been celebrating the wrong "birth"date all her life, she was a year and two months out...
It also seemed strange to us when she didnt want to hold a Golden Wedding party - until years later when it became obvious to us all that her first born was conceived just a few months out of wedlock - hardly a sin for a popular close family but she presumably didnt want to "provoke" the memories of her lifelong friends.

Perhaps such an error was also true for Mabel, maybe she wasn't actually born that date at all, perhaps this belief was a result of her own illegitimate background.

??

My great-grandmother's death was registered with a birth year that was four years out in 1937. Despite her husband and three daughters being right at hand. Maybe that's why maths has never been my strong suit either........

Hi,Thanks to everyone for your help and advise with my search for my Grandmothers birth certificate I will send for the birth in 1894 in Gloucester district Kingsholm fingers crossed , Also I will extend my search as it is possible she was registered later.
Regards Suer