Interested to find a number of my ancestors listed as 'Gardeners'. Was this a Trade, with an Apprenticeship ? Not quite sure what they would have done and how they would have set about getting started. In the FOD, would it have been Horticulture ? Full-scale market gardening ? Veg gardening ?

Help appreciated !

Not too such at what the exact type of work would be in the Forest but several of my ancestors moved to Cheltenham (from Maisemore) and became market gardeners. My great great grandfather was also gardener at Pittville.

My grandfather has summarised some memories which may provide further background (slightly away from the Forest I know but . . .)
http://www.friendsofpittville.org/docs/PittvilleMemories.pdf

I have found that if my ancestors were noted as 'gardener' rather than 'labourer' then they were market gardeners.

Hope this helps.

Katharine

--
Freewoman of Gloucester

Many thanks for that. Just been reading the link you kindly posted. I'm ashamed to say that Pittville is new to me - nor (despite being a musician) did I know that Holst has a dedicated museum there. Fascinating ! I shall have to make a pilgrimage there.

And yes, I would have thought that a 'Gardener' was in some sense a professional, whereas a 'labourer' could probably turn his hand to some gardening if required.

Looking around on the web, Scotland seems to have had a developed system of quasi-Masonic Gardeners Lodges - but apparently the only one outside Scotland was in Bristol, which may or may not be significant !

Thanks again.

The key to answer your queries are knowing where and when your ancestors were "gardeners" in the Forest ?. Is this information gleaned from PRs or from Census returns ?.
If the latter then presumably they state where or who they "gardened" for, thats IF they were in the staff of a private house/estate (a distant ancestor of mine was a 1900s gamekeeper at Bishopswood, a lovely country house estate overlooking the Wye, the same Census quotes the other staff members including gardeners). I guess that in this respect they'd have served a form of apprenticeship, if only verbal guidance under a more senior/skilled head gardener, who perhaps had training & even qualifications, I'm sure such things existed via the RHS etc (I'll look it up).
Then again I'm sure that just as nowadays, anyone could call themselves a gardener and offer to work the various privately-owned gardens in a village or town, I've seen "gardeners" in my tree and they were largely older men, perhaps too old or unfit for fulltime ag-lab or mining jobs etc yet still needing to earn, no retirement or pensions in Victorian times of course.

Re the FoD itself, it would be a great help when answering this & other general queries you raise if you tell us approx where you are and what you do or don't lnow about the Forest ?. Sorry to ask, but some forum users are from t'other side of the world and don't know the area at all, so it helps to know if possible to ensure we best hep you. If you've not seen it this ebook, written about the area in 1858, can be freely read (and searched) and is an excellent social record of the Dean.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/ebooks/gutenberg/24505/24505-h.htm

The Forest varies greatly in physical geography terms, some parts were & still are dense Forest, yet there are also open flat fertile agricultural areas around the edges. Hence some "Foresters" were woodmen or more likely/recently hard manual workers in the pits or ironworks, certainly around Bream area, whereas others towards Ross or Gloster were farming. There is an agricultural college of some renown at Hartpury but only since post WW2, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartpury_College
Indeed another of my ancestors was a maid at Bradley Court Mitcheldean, once a grand house but by 1911 it was an "agricultural school" with abt 20 young students, more recently it was a hotel.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/mitcheldean/pages/page_26.html

The FoD has no large towns hence no grand public areas such as the very "posh" Cheltenham Spa and their Pittville Pump Rooms etc etc; I guess Lydney is nearest to this, so the most skilled gardeners would be in the "posh" private houses/estates of maybe colliery owners or gentry such as Lord Bathurst at Lydney.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/kellys/Lydney_&_Aylburton_1879.htm

The majority of "normal" residents across the Forest, particularly the miners, kept small gardens for their own pleasure and particularly food growing, keeping a pig or two was also commonplace, this was mainly a poor area and life was hard so every effort was needed to feed the family.
I cannot think of anywhere in the "deep" inner Forest where market-gardening occurred, but yes maybe on the edges bordering Herefordshire particularly, and also of course the flat and very fertile Severn Vale. After WW2 areas of the Vale such as Blaisdon, famous for fruit particularly red plums, had market gardens presumably aimed at feeding expanding Gloucester, but long after your family's time of course. I've just read another of your threads (very welcome too!) and you talk about gardeners being at Tidenham, which is presumably the reason for this thread. This is a little out of my knowledge area but I'd suggest this it's in the ROUGH area of Lydney/Bathurst mentioned above. It would certainly be very fertile ground being close to the confluence of Wye and Severn, and Tidenham Chase did have some farming within it's boundaries as per this very detailed history from the ever-reliable British History Site. By the way, its a "Chase" as in ancient Royal hunting lands.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15757

I've found these notes which are part of a recent lecture entitled "Making and Running Great Gardens 1700 - 1900", so probably above the level of a typical country gardener but still a useful guide to how a professional Victorian gardener might gain their laurels...

"How did the hundreds of head gardeners in Britain in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries secure the botanical knowledge, experience and managerial competence required to do their jobs?

A few head gardeners, such as Capability Brown, went on to such eminence as garden designers that their lives are well – perhaps too well – documented. But they were exceptional. A better source for the generality of head gardeners is the series of biographies of them published in the Gardeners’ Chronicle – the main trade journal -in the 1870s. The biographies were illustrated by splendid woodcuts of men such as Anthony Parsons, head gardener at Danesbury Park in Hertfordshire.

I will make more systematic use of these sources in future work, but for the moment they make possible a description of the typical career of a head gardener.

It normally began, probably at the age of 12-14, with work as a gardener’s boy, sometimes followed by a formal apprenticeship. This apprenticeship could be with a head gardener or with one of the nurseries, like Veitch’s, which ran a training programme and employment agency for gardeners. If, on the other hand, the training was within one of the great gardens, the boy would live, with the other younger unmarried gardeners, in a bothy – a rudimentary hostel, usually sited against the north wall of the kitchungarden. Living on site was essential, as the junior gardeners were on call 24 hours a day, ready to deal with urgent tasks such as stoking the greenhouse boilers, protecting tender plants from frost, keeping plants properly watered and securing them against unexpected winds. This was on top of a six-day working week, which could often begin in the summer at 4 a.m.; that was the best time, before the advent of mowing machines, for scything the grass. So this machine was a huge relief for the boys and under-gardeners.

The aspirant gardener, later to rise to the heights of a head gardener, was also expected to become a skilled botanist and horticulturalist. Employers were enjoined to provide a library of books on plants and their cultivation, which the apprentices and junior gardeners were expected to study in their spare time, after working hours. Andrew Turnbull, head gardener at Bothwell Castle, recalled that he had the advantage of working in a garden with numerous well-labelled herbaceous plants and that he would each day, after work, try to memorise 50 of them.

Initial training or formal apprenticeship was followed, for the young gardener, by jobs in a variety of gardens, gradually working up through an hierarchy of posts. It is notable that the biographies show their subjects moving all around the country, from job to job, before achieving their first post as head gardener in their 30s or 40s. Many remained unmarried through their early career, living in what must have been rather unsalubrious conditions – the accounts at Waddesdon provide for payments for fumigating the bothy – before, when they were appointed as head gardener, occupying the head gardener’s cottage which was one of the main perquisites of the job."

The full transcript of this lecture is here
http://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/making-and-running-great-gardens-1700-1900

Earlier this lecture makes the interesting point that the popular TV programme Downton Abbey, "hailed" as a period drama, is totally inaccurate in it's non-portrayal of the gardening staff. Of course the Forest has no such grand house, but there are a few smaller ones which required staff too. The lecture describes one of the first "great" gardens, Wrest Park in Bedfordshire;

"In looking at these topics, we are moving from the world of the garden designer, so often the focus of garden history, to the world of the head gardener. Our image of the gardener may be that of Mr McGregor pursuing Peter Rabbit, but in fact head gardeners were important people, both in fact and fiction. Devotees of Wodehouse will recall the trepidation with which Lord Emsworth approached McAllister with a request that he should cut some flowers. Those of you who watch Downton Abbey will have noted that, among a number of anachronisms, it fails to pay attention to the gardens which would have been such an important feature of country-house life. The cast – far too small, does not contain a head gardener or any gardening staff.

In reality the head gardener would have been at least as important a figure as the housekeeper, second only to the butler. What face should we put to the head gardener?
Wrest Park provides an early example of such an imposing person, important enough to the family to have his portrait painted. John Duell was the head gardener there in the early eighteenth century.
Duell was in charge of a large, though fluctuating, labour force. At the beginning of September 1717 he had 10 men, 3 boys and 3 women working under him, but this had risen by the end of the month to 25 men, 4 women and 4 boys, at a weekly cost for labour and materials of £6-13-3½, plus an allowance for his own food and lodging of 6/-. Duell was in charge of weekly expenditure equivalent to £16,450 today."

This second website discusses C18th gardening apprenticeships from an American viewpoint, it can be slow to load.
http://bjws.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/black-white-apprentice-gardeners-from.html#rpctoken=...

" The terms of apprenticeship was generally 3 years. But in America, it is apparent that boys as young as 8 were contracted out to gardeners, and they often served longer than 3 years. Custom and laws called for apprenticeship to end at the age when the attained "manhood."
In England, few could expect to attain to the rank either of master-gardener or tradesman, who had not served an apprenticeship to the one or the other. On the American side of the Atlantic, because the trade & gardens were generally less developed, advancement in the field of gardening was more open to those who never served an apprenticeship."

(Continued)

So it's clear that gardeners, at least in the "grand" sense, were indeed subject to formal apprenticeship training and their subsequent careers could follow strictly regimented lines, as shown on this site;

"GARDENING HIERARCHY

There was a strict pecking order particularly on larger estates with the Head Gardener being at the top of the chain. A typical hierarchy could be as follows:

HEAD GARDENER/ FOREMAN GARDENER / JOURNEYMAN OR UNDER GARDENER / APPRENTICE

The 1871 census showed a small estate such as Wortley employing a Head Gardener, Foreman Gardener and 3 Under Gardeners. There is no mention of an apprentice in the census.

WAGES OF GARDENING STAFF
The ‘going rate’ around 1870 for gardening staff was as follows:
HEAD GARDENER approx £100 per year
SKILLED JOURNEYMAN approx £36 per year
APPRENTICE approx £20 per year

Joseph Paxton at Chatsworth House was thought to be earning approximately £500 per year, but this included extra duties as the Estate Manager besides his main role as Head Gardener.
THERE COULD BE WIDE VARIATIONS ON THESE RATES, OBVIOUSLY DEPENDING ON THE BENEVOLENCE OF THE EMPLOYER."

Wortley Hall Walled Garden is near Barnsley, Yorkshire.
https://sites.google.com/site/wortleywalledgarden/Home/history/the-life-and-times-of-wo...

Interested to find a number of my ancestors listed as 'Gardeners'. Was this a Trade, with an Apprenticeship ? Not quite sure what they would have done and how they would have set about getting started. In the FOD, would it have been Horticulture ? Full-scale market gardening ? Veg gardening ?

Help appreciated !

Yours are described as Gardeners / Domestic servants, so I suspect they are tending gardens - keeping things tidy/ tending the veg plot etc

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Many thanks to both Jefff and slowhands for your thorough replies re. gardening. Jefff's very much confirms what I suspected: that there would not much have been much of a market for 'big-house'-type gardening within the FOD, though there might have been not too far outside it.

I was curious because my great-grandfather Benjamin James seems to be described as a postman (Census 1851), before leaving the Forest and living in/near Westbury-on-Trym for several years. (Very grateful indeed to slowhands for digging out his marriage [1855] - and his eventual death [1900].) Two of his children were born there, too. (Presumably he was gaining experience / training as a 'proper' gardener ?)

By the time of the 1961 census he was working at Tidenham, and living only two doors and the church away from 'Pill House' - which (photos on web) looks a fairly impressive building. Pill House then and the next door house (also under the heading 'Pill House' in the transcript) were separate farm houses (farms recorded as 272 and 300 acres respectively), containing not only the farmers and assorted farm workers but servants, a 'companion' (two very small children in the family, so perhaps a nanny ?), and even a 'gentleman - visitor.' Next door on the other side lived an 'Attorney + Solicitor'. Plenty of scope for gardening between the three large properties, I would have thought - and maybe the house went with the job ?

Digression - Jefff asks about where I 'come from' - geographically the answer is 'very rural Yorkshire'; so I can vouch for the fact that farmers are the world's worst gardeners ! I'm fairly new to the FOD, though, and a novice at genealogical research, though I'm a historian by training and find it fascinating. Oddly enough I'd already settled on the very book you recommend for reading online; waiting for it to arrive at the moment. But have read a couple of autobiographical accounts of childhoods in the Forest, which I found very helpful. Haven't yet been on a trip down there, (still working, and time is always short) though intend to once I know what I want to see there. That seems to be rapidly crystallizing. And very grateful for the full and generous replies my queries seem to be getting - extremely helpful!

Back to gardening - by 1871 Benjamin is in Meopham, Kent , of all places, again as gardener; there are a couple of large houses down there, but his address is given as 'Camer', which seems to now be a country park - perhaps then with large house attached ? Must have been an attractive job for him to move with family right across the country.

1881 saw him back again, gardening in Cirencester (living in Sheep St, with no indication as to where he was employed).

By the time of the 1891 census he is off again, living at Rodborough Manor House, Glos, as Gardener/domestic servant, with a much younger under-gardener also living there; his wife is described as 'caretaker'. The three of them are the only occupants. Looking up Rodborough Manor, the house seems to have passed through various hands in the late 19thC before burning down in 1906 [later to be re-built] - by which time Benjamin had died. (See http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rodborough-near-Stroud-Manor-after-Fire-1906-by-H-J-Comley-/3... for the house after the fire.) But - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/archidave/501827658/ for the present truly amazing Arcadian garden !

Sorry - we've come some way from the FOD in the course of researching Benjamin James, so strictly speaking this is 'off topic' for the forum. But he was born there (Joyford 1833), and I think my original question about how a Forester might have become a gardener has been amply answered by your various kind replies. Many thanks !

Hi,
I'm glad to see your clear enthusiasm for social history as well as wanting to build a family tree. Thanks for saying where you are, and that you haven't yet visited the Forest, as I'm sure you know this knowledge helps us when answering (altho yes of course I'm nosey ;-) too like most Foresters, traditonally wary of Vurriners (ie anyone outide of the Dean) yet invariably friendly too. Re Yorkshire my mother who lives in her home Dean has just returned from yet another enjoyable holiday in your fair county last week, this time Scarborough, she knows the whole County well after several tours. These include visiting many great gardens, her passion, she'd be shocked to know I've been researching her favourite subject !

If you wish to find out more about how the Dean looks, search out "tourism" etc on this forum and theres loads of links to many websites etc etc.
Meanwhile also please lookout for a direct email from me which may be of further interest wrt your latest post.

Thanks again for the interesting new enquiries, please keep them coming !

ttfn Jeff

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I'm sure it has, but POJames mentions reading autobiographical books about the Forest. Here is an excellent list of just some of the books produced over the years about the Forest.
http://www.fweb.org.uk/dean/deanhist/books.htm

Many of them particularly the autobiographies by the likes of Foley, Latham, Phelps and Potter (my favourite) can often be bought for little expense in the usual secondhand sources, or borrowed from librairies - even here in Middlesex I'm pleased to say.

Coleford's own Forest Bookshop website is also very informative.
http://www.forestbookshop.com/

Here is another list of suggested reading c/o our Local History Society.
http://79.170.40.163/forestofdeanhistory.org.uk/FODLHS_books_held_at_Gage_Library.doc

This website also contains some excellent e-books to read online.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/downloads/index.php?path=PDF_Books/

Hope this helps, I hope others can add to it.

Very helpful, Jefff. Have already met Foley and Phelps, and will investigate some more.
Cheers !