Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Back to the forum index

Linear

Hello

I was wondering if there was a list of soldiers who went to WW1 from Lydbrook.

There are several William H James and I would need next of kin or address so that I can prove it was my William Howard James. I do have a photo of him and have put it on here at some time. He served in France. He is buried in Lydbrook 1944.

I have searched Forces and several other sites. And may have come to the conclusion he was in the Medical Corp (RAMC). 16 Oct 1915 Card I have found on Ancestry is #27020 (2 of them) but I do not have proof this is him.

I really really really want to find out where he served so that I can search that/those battles and put a story together.

Thank you for your time.
and Happy New Year
Rita James
NZ

5007 views

Hi Rita,
and a Happy New Year to you too !.

I'm pleased your William got home safely from WW1 and lived a good time afterwards. However as I suspect you've realised this is almost a "disadvantage" when researching his War, as the most-easily-found records seem to find those who died rather than survived eg Memorials, Honour Rolls and newspaper accounts( eg Laura Morse Diary). Similarly this forum understandably contains posts about those who died, or were wounded, but less so the much more numerous survivors. As you know the best WW1 sources are the Service and/or Pension Records, rather than Medal Cards, as these Records contain details of next of kin, home address etc. What an ironic shame that most of these records were destroyed during WW2, unlike the far more common Medal Cards. However there are other possible routes, with local newspapers always being a good start, I have an interest(and past career) in all things Military history, so I always look out for military ancestors.
eg like you I struggled to find one of mine amongst several Medal Card "possibles" until I saw his 1915 Marriage Record within this great website, it told me he was a Corporal in the Monmouthshires so very helpfull indeed, he died in 1945 aged just 56, so a contemporary of your William perhaps.

When searching Ancestry etc for Service and/or Pension Records for WW1, I recommend always searching "outside of the box" even with apparently straightforward names. I read thro ALL the Records that MIGHT POSSIBLY be my target, as I've found sometimes what is claimed to be a 10page record for one man is actually two shorter records for two different men; also sometimes the record pages are accidentally mis-filed, there's a chance your man's records may be there despite the search engines initially suggesting otherwise.

My father and other family ancestors were from Lydbrook, so I have also searched Ancestry's WW1 Records using placenames including "Lydbrook" as key search words, very helpfull in my case when searching VERY common surnames such as Aston & Jones - this way I've found soldiers who turnout to be relatives that hadn't previously been on my already quite far-reaching trees. I also kept records of those outside my tree from other Forest towns, with the intention of posting on this forum, - however five months ago I had a serious virus infection that deleted many hundreds of pages of text documents, photos etc etc containing all my FH researches including those on my standalone "safe" backup drive, so sadly I cannot check those for your William.

Just occasionally soldiers are named within Army Unit diaries, but only on rare occasions such as during acts of extreme bravery, but still maybe worth searching if possible. You may know the National Archives have just(this week) started placing digitised War Diary Records on their website, but this will take some years to finish.
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/first-world-war-unit-diaries-go-digital...

I've just found your great photo of William, I think you're very lucky in having a photo of him in uniform, and even better not the more usual studio photo.
Have you tried getting the original photo, or a high resolution scan of it, examined by a miltary uniform expert - the cap badges look particularly prominent for example ?.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/lydbrook_2/mediafiles/l27.jpg

On that subject, I don't think the capbadge in the photo is the RAMC, it seems too wide/heavy to my eyes altho you have the original photo. These sites may help;
http://www.ww1photos.com/RAMC.html
http://www.ramc-ww1.com/index.html
That said, of course badges do occasionally change slightly(for ease of manufacturing) during the course of the war, plus soldiers could be transferred between Regiments, so ??

You could also try posting the photo onto Military history forums, I've found these to be extremely helpful. You may even find someone who knows the other men on the photo !. One of the best if not THE best WW1 sites is the Long Long Trail, as you've probably already found. Military history is a very popular interest and there are incredibly informative sites and very helpfull forums about what may seem the most obscure subjects.
http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/research.html

Hopefully this will help you, good luck, Jeff.

4707 views

This is quite a timely query as The Trust is soon to upload a database of Forest of Dean Soldiers that has been compiled from a number of sources including enrollment lists from the Dean Forest Mercury. The data is still being compiled and updated and though by know means complete it will be an interesting database, along the lines perhaps of the one proposed by the Imperial War Museum http://www.livesofthefirstworldwar.org/ but just for the Forest Of Dean

A quick look at my data shows that we have 64 James' listed though no William H James but he may still be amongst those recorded in the Mercury that have not been checked yet, so please keep a look out for the data when it uploaded as he may be listed by then

4591 views

Hi Dink,
I thought and hoped you'd reply to this post; please see my email in this respect. I'm really looking forward to the findings of your researches, thanks in advance for what must have been an awful lot of work. I'm intrigued you say the Mercury also had enlistment details, it hadn't occurred to me that such things were published altho' it does seem rather obvious in retrospect and I'm sure the War Office were keen to promote such information to assist further enlisting, your findings will certainly be very interesting indeed.

One other thought, I don't know without looking when the British Legion came into being, but presumably they are also a worthwhile route of enquiry ?. I've no idea why but I'd always assumed the Legion related more to WW2 and after rather than the First War, so hadn't considered this method before ??.

-----------------------------

Update:

"The British Legion was founded in 1921 as a voice for the ex-Service community as a merger of four organisations: the Comrades of the Great War, the National Association of Discharged Sailors and Soldiers, the National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers and the Officers' Association. It was granted a Royal Charter on 29 May 1971 to mark its fiftieth anniversary which gives the Legion the privilege of the prefix 'Royal'. Earl Haig, commander of the Battle of the Somme and Passchendaele was one of the founders of the Legion, and was President until his death."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Legion

-----------------------------

Altho I've always been a staunch supporter of Poppy Appeals I knew little more about their work before tonight, I've found their official website very worthwhile reading. It states
"We help the Armed Forces community.
We provide life-long care and support to serving members of the Royal Navy, British Army and Royal Air Force, reservists, veterans of all ages and their families.
We also campaign to improve their lives, organise the Poppy Appeal, run one of the UK's largest membership organisations and remember the fallen."

So it seems to me they're already performing an excellent and difficult task, and perhaps shouldn't be distracted by being asked to perform research too ?. I think that's why their website doesn't appear to encourage such enquiries, but instead offers this useful page.
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/medals/service-records-faqs

That said I suspect some members of some Branches may possibly be happy to assist polite enquiries, their website shows Branches in many Forest towns. Is this a route you've tried Dink, eitherway I suggest we should all await your findings at the very least before we trouble them further ?

4617 views

The photo doesn't contain enough detail to be sure but the cap badge could easily be the Gloucestershire Regiment. It's the right kind of shape and you can imagine the sphinx at the top of it. I have my own grandfather's in front of me at the moment. It's a pity there's no chance of seeing a back badge to confirm it. I wonder if I'm just seeing what I would like to see!

4556 views

Rita, this is off topic, but have I ever asked you whether some of your James mob settled in Woodend, North Canterbury? The James family used to own a farm near the Woodend pub. They converted the farm into a subdivision that we lived in until recently. The main reason I ask is that one of the lanes in the subdivision is called Lydney Lane.

The widow of one of the sons, Errol James, still lives in the subdivision and I could put you in touch if you think there is a connection.

4497 views

Wow you lot are amazing and just goes to show how many people are connected to this site. Wonderful stuff.

I have not read all your comments yet as just found them.

The badge I have blown up (well the photo) and it is the Gloucester Regiment with the sqhinx. Did the Medical Corp wear different badges?

I will definitely keep a lookout in those other databases.

As far as I know the only James's from my family who settled in NZ were Isaac Angelo James b1874 and family from Parkend, who was the manager of a mine in Westport, but died in Christchurch, South Island in 1950.Unfortunately he only had 3 daughters so doubt if the James name continued.

Once again thank you so much for your information.

Best wishes
from NZ

4523 views

Hi again Rita,
Yes, by the time of WW1 all British Army Regiments wore essentially the same khaki green Service Uniforms as per your photo, so to aid identification each Regiment had different cap badges (the best identifier for WW1 soldiers) plus smaller matching tunic collar badges and buttons. (For ceremonial/parade use - so not in WW1 France - they also had their "dress" uniforms which were the oldfashioned redcoat style). The Glosters were unique in also wearing badges to the back of their caps.
Some links which may help you re the Glosters are in this old post http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=41234, those most relevant to you are as follows:

The Regimental Museum;
http://www.glosters.org.uk/research/

Also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldiers_of_Gloucestershire_Museum
http://www.glosters.org/
This pdf document details the various military archives of Gloucestershire.
http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/archives/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=11841&p=0

You can search the Glosters' website for soldiers, but this isn't conclusive without further contact with them. Their site does show three William H.James and very helpfully gives their Service Number and Battalion within the Regiment, altho sadly not their middle name:
http://www.glosters.org.uk/soldier/19813
http://www.glosters.org.uk/soldier/19814
http://www.glosters.org.uk/soldier/19815
It may help to search these service numbers on Ancestry etc.

The Museum site also carries thousands of photos of uniforms, badges and soldiers etc which maybe worth browsing for comparison with yours.
http://www.glosters.org.uk/collections/

4557 views

The cap badge worn in the photo is that of the Gloucestershire Regt. in white metal (silver looking), later in the war an economy brass version was issued.
As Jefff states there were three William H. James in the Glouc. Regt.:-
William H. James Private 15848 10th Battn. who landed in France on 9.8.1915. He was entitled to the 1915 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal. This Battn first fought at Loos, 25.9.1915 being the first day.
William H. James Private 51955 1st Battn. who landed in France after 1.1.1916 since no date of entry into a theatre of war is stated on his medal index card. He was entitled to only the British War Meadal and Victory Medal.
William H. James Private 17311 9th Battn. who landed in France on 20.9.1915. He was entitled to the 1915 Star trio as described above. However the 9th Battn. Glouc. Regt. were only in France until November 1915 when they transferred to Salonika returning to France in July 1918.
None of the above transferred to other units such as R.A.M.C.
None died in service so it is not possible to eliminate any by that criteria.
There appear to be no service or pension records for any of them.
Looking at the photo and the uniforms worn, and equipment carried, I would guess it was taken in 1915 or early 1916. They are obviously not wearing 'tin hats' or appear to be carrying them. They are not carrying the later respirators/gas masks which were carried in a bag on the chest. They are not wearing any divisional indentification badges on their sleeves (a practice which started late in 1916).
The uniform of the man on the right of William H. James looks pretty shabby and that of the man on the left has also seen a bit of wear and tear, whereas W.H.J's (especially the cap) seems more pristine. So does that suggest that he may have been Private 51955 of 1st Battalion, who, by his medal index card information, would appear to be a reinforcement to 1st Battn. to replace earlier losses?
The photo caption states 'in France', but was it? The back would be interesting to see. Many were printed as post cards so would have the French 'Carte Postale' printed on it. Any other written message etc. would be of interest.
The best source of confirmation would of course be his medals, if they are still around, which would show his service number. Other family correspondence would also possibly give pointers to indentifying which is William Howard James amongst the above, or any family stories of where he might have fought (although this is notoriously unreliable).

4553 views

Hi Harry,
thanks very much for your really helpful insight into soldier identification, with the benefit of your expert guidance it is indeed clear to see WHJ appears to be a more recent recruit, thanks for the pointers such as the cap shape. Am I right in presuming all WW1 Tommys were issued with essentially the same shape/style cap, ie no Regimental variations ?. Also, approximately when did tin helmets start being issued ?, and did this result in the peaked caps stop being issued perhaps in favour of simpler forage caps ?
Re the cap badge, I'm not for a moment querying your findings, but am I right in thinking the Gloster's badge was particularly distinctive in shape & size compared to all the other Regiments ? I ask as I've never really studied/compared them particularly on photos such as this, but I assume there must have been dozens ?? of different badges across the various units, which from a distance to my poor uneducated eyes would often appear similar.
Thanks again.

4505 views

Jefff,
To my knowledge there were two types of cap issued in WW1. An early issue cap, called a trench cap, with flaps to cover the ears if required. Generally worn with the flaps tied up over the top of the cap. And then there was the one as seen in the photo of the group with William Howard James. It was usual to "customise" this by taking out the rim stiffener and re-shaping the top, again as seen in the photo.
The steel helmet was introduced in 1916 and was in general use by the summer, i.e. for the Battle of the Somme. The cloth cap was worn when out of the trenches.
Scottish Regiments wore glengarries or tam-o'-shanters, but let's not complicate matters too much.
The forage cap was, I think, generally seen as part of full dress uniform going back into Victorian times. It appears to have become usual issue again to other ranks, Army, after WW1. It was worn in WW1 by R.F.C., later R.A.F., personnel.
Regarding identifying cap badges - As long as the photo is not blurred and not too small it is reasonably easy to identify them with the aid of a good reference book; the best being "Military Badges of The British Empire 1914-18" by Reginald H. W. Cox.
Harry

4426 views

Thankyou kind sir, very helpful !
Jeff

4432 views

The Glorious Glosters cap badge is quite distinctive. It's two inches wide by 1.5 inches tall and consists of a large sphinx surmounting the word EGYPT over foliage and, at the bottom, in a scroll, the word GLOUCESTERSHIRE. The back badge is a little smaller than a modern 10 pence coin and consists of a wreath containing a sphinx over the word EGYPT. There's not much chance of it being mistaken for anything else.

4432 views

Thanks for that

Unfortunately William never married and no one seems to have anything of his back in England.

Thanks for the extensive info will follow it up.

Rita
Cheers

4456 views

Could someone please tell me the email address I send photos through as when I click on the link it comes up internet explorer and I don't use Internet Explorer.

Just want to send through copy of William Howard James' record card to see if anyone can recognise if it is his

Thanks.
Rita

4435 views

'I have searched Forces and several other sites. And may have come to the conclusion he was in the Medical Corp (RAMC). 16 Oct 1915 Card I have found on Ancestry is #27020 (2 of them) but I do not have proof this is him.'

Just a couple of comments:-

The photograph of William Howard James shows him with his bayonet fixed to his rifle. RAMC only used their weapons in self defence and never fixed their bayonets to their rifles.

The cap badge of the RAMC is crown above a laurel wreath containing a serpent entwined upon a staff, which is different to the cap badge in the photograph.

The probate record for William Howard James 1889-1944 is available on Ancestry.

4449 views

Thank you guess that answers that question.

Yes I have his probate record, thank you

Rita

4434 views

RSS Feed of thread

powered by my little forum