I have traced my mother's family back to a Mary BOXEL who married William BROWNE in Skenfrith, Monmouthshire in 1808 with a Charlotte BOXEL as a witness.

In the 1851 Census of Grosmont, Monmouthshire, I am fairly certain that Mary BROWN gives her birthplace as Ham[near Berkeley?], Gloucestershire though there are many crossings-out, misaligned scribblings and over-writing.

A Monmouthshire reseacher located the Baptisms of Mary, Charlotte and Thomas BOXWELL to Edward BOXALL & Ann COLE at Awre with Blakeney in the late 1700s which he assures me is the family I am looking for.

I have looked for other children of this FoD family with little success so have made do with researching Charlotte's family of 8 children - Anne, James, Thomas, Sarah, Harriott, George [born 1819], George [born 1821] and William - which includes WEBB, CRUMP, and CARTER surnames.

I would appreciate any members who may be researching this family to post their findings and/or get in touch.

Regards,

Bernard HAGAN

Brisbane, Australia

?

If Charlotte BOXEL was a witness at the wedding of Mary BOXEL to William BROWNE in Skenfrith, Monmouthshire

Freereg

Marriage at Skenfrith - Monmouthshire, Parish Church

2 May 1808 - William BROWN of Llangattock, Linegoed and Mary BOXEL of Skenfrith

then that would seem not to be the Charlotte BOXWELL - Fod records - (BOXEL on Church of Latter Day Saints, and BOND on Gloucestershire Marriage Index CD ) - who married James WEBB in Awre 11 May 1803 as by then Charlotte surname would be WEBB

1851 Census, Grosmont Monmouthshire

Mary BROWN - age 69 (c1782) - Seamstrefs - born Gloucester HOW - on Ancestry - looks like HAM
Ellin BROWN - 3 - grand-daughter - born Longstock Monmouthshire

? 1841 Census, Grosmont, Monmouthshire

Cottage

Mary BROWN - 53 - not born in County
William BROWN - 25 Cordwainer, born in County
John WALBY? 1

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If I look at the Baptism Index Cd after 1813

Berkeley St Mary the Virign

There are lots of baptisms where various families are living at : HAM

No BOXALL burials at Berkeley 1800 onwards - although again many names of people coming from HAM

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Checked Gloucestershire Marriage Index 1800 onwards - no other Charlotte BOXALL or alternatives or a BOXALL marrying a Charlotte

Dear M P GRIFFITHS

Sorry, but after spending 45 minutes replying to your message I got a 404 Error Message and when I went back to the previous page all the text was gone.

I very much appreciated your interest and comments but am well aware of the assumptions I have made. Until I am presented with something that refutes them I am, as I have done quite frequently in my research, suspending disbelief.

Regards,

Bernard

Brisbane, Australia

Dear P. M. GRIFFITHS,

I am well aware of the apparent anomalies you have pointed out. Let me address them one by one.

Two sources for the event in question:

Mike JOHN's website has Monmouthshire Marriages 1725 - 1812

BROWN, William of Llangattock Lingoed married Mary BOXEL of Skenfrith by banns on 02/05/1808

Skenfrith Parish Register Transcripts - Marriages

No: 157

2 May 1808

William BROWN, X, Llangattock Lingoed
Mary BOXEL, X, opt
Witness:- John PARRY, X; Charlotte BOXEL, X
Consent of Parents

The above transcript details of the marriage of Mary BOXEL to William BROWN, my 3x great grandparents, at Skenfrith, Monmouthshire in 1808 with a Charlotte BOXEL as a witness, was, for some time, one of my many 'brick-walls'. The 1841 Census of Grosmont indicated Mary was not born in Monmouthshire, while the 1851 Census, though difficult to read and interpret, gave her birthplace as "Ham" in Gloucestershire - there are at least two such places.

The transcript indicates that neither the bridal couple nor the witnesses could sign their names and marked the register with an X. This suggests that the spelling of Mary & Charlotte's surname was up to the officiating minister's interpretation of what he heard when this uncommon surname in this county, was pronounced. I subsequently assumed that the surname BOXWELL could not be ruled out.

The three following observations

The comment 'With Consent of Parents' [note the plural 'parents' indicating both were possibly alive and present in 1808 when Mary was about 19],
the use of 'of this Parish' in regard to Mary's status in the Parish of Skenfrith
and Charlotte's presence as a witness,

all point to the possibility that these BOXEL parents and their children could have been living in Skenfrith Parish and had been able to gain official residency rights either by being born there [which Mary's records in the '41 and '51 Censuses state she was not] or by some other legitimate means - which would fit with their having originally lived in the Parish of Awre with Blakeney.

After searching for the BOXEL surname in Gloucestershire, Monmouthshire and beyond, I discovered how very rare it was. I then attempted to find copies of the original handwritten Skenfrith Marriage record - both Bishop's Transcripts and Parish Registers - through the LDS with little success as certain records are unavailable outside the UK. I hoped to find some transcription error, and /or additional information that would shed light on the points made above.

It was then that I received the following from a Monmouthshire researcher of some standing:

Boxall

Bernard,

A large step closer

I have had a closer look at the Glos I.G.I and I believe
I have found the origins of the name Boxall/Boxel

On the I.G.I there are these siginificant entries.

Surname Boxal/Boxall/Boxel/Boxell/Buxel/Baxsall/Bixshell

20.10.1777 Edward Boxall married Anne Cole at Awre with Blakeney
11.5.1803 Charlotte Boxel married James Webb at "

Surname Boxwell/Boxwill/Bixwell

1785 Thomas bap s/o Edward & Anne Boxwill at Awre with Blakeney
1789 Mary bap d/o Edward & Anne Boxwill at "

The former surname Boxwill/Boxwell is more common that Boxall/Boxell
there are 12 entries of Boxall and over 50 of Boxwell.

Families using both surnames are most prevalent in the parishes of Rodmarton,
Oldbury and nearby parishes, and the reason for this is that there is a parish
in the same area called Boxwell which I suspect the family took theirs from.

Hope this helps.

Mike

As to the problem why Charlotte BOXEL didn't use her married surname of WEBB when she witnessed her sister's wedding in 1808, having been married 5 years previously in Awre with Blakeney in Gloucestershire. Seeing that her signature appears to have been left in the hands of the officiating minister, it appears quite likely that he could have know her as the Bride's sister, Charlotte, even though she may have been introduced as Charlotte [or Mrs] WEBB. There could have been at least a family of four BOXELs in the wedding party - all sitting together on the bride's side of the church. He may have simply forgotten her married name or he may not have even known she was married if she came from the Forest of Dean for the marriage, leaving her husband at home.

There are any number of such senarios that could explain Charlotte's maiden name being used. Such an issue is surely insufficient to completely rule out this connection?

After some initial scepticism, I now tend to agree with Mike JOHNS that because of the rarity of the name BOXEL and all the supporting evidence above, that there is more than likely a match with the Mary & Charlotte BOXEL at the 1808 Skenfrith marriage and the two sisters, Mary & Charlotte BOXWELL, Baptised at Awre with Blakeney in the 1780s - at least until someone provides me with evidence of a Mary BOXWELL from Ham in Gloucestershire, Baptised in the late 1780s, possibly with a sister called Charlotte.

The closeness of Ham, a Hamlet just outside Berkeley in Gloucestershire, to the Parish of Awre with Blakeney, with the River Severn being the border between the two parishes, further reinforces the mounting evidence of a connection between the BOXELs of Skenfrith and the BOXWELLs of Awre with Blakeney.

Thank you for your comments, research information and interest. They are much appreciated.

Regards,

Bernard

Brisbane, Australia

I have looked at the 1851 Census and wonder if the Enumerator has written Har as the place of birth. Awre is pronounced that way and from my experience of transcribing Census returns of that time place names were often written as they sounded.

Mike

Pronounation of Awre

http://www.fweb.org.uk/towns/10-Awre

According to the above Forest website Awre is prounced 'Oar'.

West Country people from Wiltshire, where I was born, and Blakeney were my Grandad came from - we don't sound our H's.

When we visited Awre - the local historian from Blakeney gave us a walk round and said Awre was spoken 'R' and pointed out one house in Etloe named Awre House - this he said was spoken in local dialect as R … ouse

- perhaps more local folk could give their opinion as well

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Finding family Wills either male/female line - is one of the the best way to confirm theories. - There are just a couple of BOXALL Wills on Ancestry - but many COLES.

Burial at Awre - 12 March 1804 - Anne BOXWELL age 53 years - (died March 9) - c1751 - not sure what happened to Edward

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Gloucestershire Marriage Index 1754-1800 (a few earlier ones) - which covers marriages from parishes not covered by forest-of-dean.net Phillimore, IGI and the GFHS 18th Century Register Transcripts

Thomas BOXWELL of Rodmarton, married at Coates, Sarah BROWN - 5 July 1761
Thomas BOXWELL married at Bisley - Mary BUCKLAND - 22 Sept 1783
James BOXWELL married at Colesbourne - Martha PAINTER by Lic - 16 October 1786

Mary BOXALL married by Licence - at Rodmarton, Richard JEFFERIES of Bisley - 4 Sept 1765
Betty BOXALL married at Rodmarton - Joseph TRANTOR - 8 August 1789
Joice BOXWELL married at Cromhall - Edward BRAMBLE - 1685

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Will check the burial index from 1800 onwards there a few Boxall/Boxwill/Boxwell's

BOXALL marriages after 1800 from Gloucestershire Marriage Index CD

BRIDES

Anne BOXWELL married William PETERS of Malmesbury Wiltshire at Bisley - 1 Sept 1817
Elizabeth BOXWELL married Thomas COOK at Cheltenham St Mary - March 29 November 1821
Elizabeth BOXWELL married Henry CUSS at Cirencester - 7 March 1827
Hester BOXWELL married Charles CHAPPELL at Oldbury on the Hill 22 December 1821
Hester BOXWELL married Paul Fry at Rodmarton - 7 December 1800
Jane BOXWELL married Thomas FISHER at Coates - 9 November 1827
Mary BOXWELL married Richard COATES Rodmarton - 8 March 1803
Mary BOXWELL married Thomas KNIGHT at Didmarton/Oldbury - 13 Jan 1801 ***
Mary BOXWELL married Joseph SAVAGE at Coates - 25 October 1830
Sarah BOXWELL married James NEALL at Duntisbourne Rouse - 24 December 1835
Sarah BOXWELL married William RICHINGS at Gloucester St Mary de Lobe - 1 October 1834

? a Thomas & Mary KNIGHT have a few children christened at Newham - Elizabeth 21.7.1816 (Thomas occupation, Waterman) Emma - 23 March 1823 - Phoebe - 1828 and Thomas 1832 - and looking at the Gloucestershire Baptism Index - Ann Louisa - 6 December 1821 - at Fretherene St Mary - Thomas was a Mariner. Various other Thomas & Mary KNIGHT's children baptisms on IGI.

1841 Census Newnham

Mary KNIGHT 15
Phoebe KNIGHT 12

Possibly lack of records, could indicate the BOXALL's might be watermen and as females could marry age 12 and males aged 14 - who knows??

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Fod Records

Burial record of a Thomas BOXWELL in 1781 in Awre

Charlotte WEBB (wife of James) burial at Awre - 23 March 1849 age 69 = c1780 (no baptism record on FoD)

1841 Census, Blakeney Hill

WEBB

all born in County

James 60
Charlotte 60
William 15
Mary 14

For what it's worth, I wonder if the enumerator has actually written Haw. Clearly he has initially used the wrong boxes for Mary and Ellin's birthplaces and been forced to cross out Ellin's (Mon. Langattock)and lever in Mary's again. The entry above is therefore also Mary's birthplace and could be read as Gloster Haw. I would have no inkling of the local pronunciation of AWRE but it might not be far away from Haw in the ears of the unfamiliar.

Looking for possible children of Edward & Ann in Blakeney - as there is only two - Thomas 1785 and Mary 1789 - and appears to be one family group

Did notice on Gloucestershire Records Office Genealogical Database

10 April 1817

John BOXALL age 31 = c1786 - of Blakeney - labourer, Gaol

and more records on Ancestry

Canada, British Regimental Register of Service

Name: John BOXALL

Age : 16

Birth Date: 1789

Birth Place: Blakeney, Gloucester

Military Date: 18 February 1805

Unit: 90th Foot Soldiers, 2nd Battalion

(can see actual page - swarthy, grey eyes, dark brown hair etc)

also

UK, Prison Hulk Registers and Letter Books

Name: John BOXALL

Age: 31

Date Received: 28 May 1817

Ship: Justitia

Place Moored: Woolwich

Date Convicted: 2 April 1817

Place Convicted: Gloucester

(can see actual written page again on Ancestry - but can't make out what he is convicted of …. wool???? - but appears to have been transported for 7 years in April 1817 for Larcency.

He was sent to New South Wales on the ship Batavia, arrived 30 May 1818 and granted a Certificate of Freedom on 15 April 1824.

Mike

To all who have responded, many, many thanks. You have all given me so much to think about. I'm embarrassed not to have thought of the similarities of 'Awre' and 'Ham' myself. John BOXALL adds an Australian connection I will have to track down.

Again, many thanks.

Bernard