Hello everyone,

Looking for any information about the Selwyns and the Vailes who lived in Westbury on Severn. I know Rosa Maria Selwyn was born 1846 in Awre and married Samuel Vaile in 1863. They lived in Westbury on Severn and had seven children (not a pun), although moved to Gloucester some time in the early 1870s, when only three of their children had been born.

Alice Maud Vaile was their youngest daughter. She had an illegitimate baby in 1906, my great grandmother, who was raised partly by one of Alice Maud's brothers (Ebenezer James Vaile b. 1874) according to a 1911 census record.

But our limited amount of family history runs that Rosa Maria Vaile brought my great grandmother up and that at least some of them were in service, possibly in the Gloucester/FoD area. I want to find out more about this and would love to know where they were in service. Does anyone have any information on them that you might have come across? Or any hints/tips on finding out more?

Thank you so much in advance!

I imagine these are the children (from this site and FamilySearch):-

Fanny, 1864, Westbury (buried in 1873 from this site?)
Ada Elizabeth, 1866, Westbury (buried in 1870 from this site?)
Rosa Annie (or maybe Anne) 1870 Chaxhill
Ebenezer James Albert, 1874, Gloucester
Lilian Rachael, 1877, Gloucester
Alice Maud. 1880, Gloucester
Harold S, 1884, Gloucester

At the moment the only one I can track as being in service is Rosa Annie:-

GR 1891 Census, 52 Worcester St, Gloucester

William JACQUES, Brother, S, 68, Architect and Surveyor, b. Oxford
Annie M, Sister, S, 57, Gloucester
Emma C FLUCK, Serv, S, 21, Housemaid Domestic, Gloucester
Annie R VAILE, Serv, S, 21, Cook Domestic, Glos. Chaxhill

Although William JACQUES styles himself as "Brother" this does not seem to fit with the previous entry which is a separate household. Perhaps he just got confused.

GR, 1901 Census, Gloucester, Kingsholme Ward

William JACQUES, Head, 78, Single, Architect and Surveyor, b.Oxford
Rosey A VAILE, Serv, 31, Cook Domestic, Glos. Chaxhill
Emma C FLUCK, Serv, 31, Housemaid Domestic, Gloucester

GR 1911 Census, 52, Worcester St, Gloucester

William JAQUES, Head, 88, Single, Architect and Surveyor, b. St Giles, Oxford
Rosey Annie VAILE, Serv, 41, Single, Housemaid, Glos. Westbury
Rosa Maria VAILE, Serv, 64, Widow, Cook, Glos. Awre

In 1901 Samuel VAILE appears to be a patient in Wotton Hill asylum. There are BNA reports of what led to this which I can download and send to you if of interest (via the blue envelope).

Hello everyone,

Looking for any information about the Selwyns and the Vailes who lived in Westbury on Severn. I know Rosa Maria Selwyn was born 1846 in Awre and married Samuel Vaile in 1863. They lived in Westbury on Severn and had seven children (not a pun), although moved to Gloucester some time in the early 1870s, when only three of their children had been born.

Alice Maud Vaile was their youngest daughter. She had an illegitimate baby in 1906, my great grandmother, who was raised partly by one of Alice Maud's brothers (Ebenezer James Vaile b. 1874) according to a 1911 census record.

But our limited amount of family history runs that Rosa Maria Vaile brought my great grandmother up and that at least some of them were in service, possibly in the Gloucester/FoD area. I want to find out more about this and would love to know where they were in service. Does anyone have any information on them that you might have come across? Or any hints/tips on finding out more?

Thank you so much in advance!

Hi Lauren, welcome to this friendly & helpful forum.
Your post suggests that you've already done a fair bit of research, so to avoid duplication of effort re your opening line it may help if you can please post more specific questions if you can. This will help us to help you, and hopefully progress the this query in stages. Thankyou.

Unless you say otherwise can we assume you've already searched this forum for related threads/clues, searched this site's Parish Records, and also have seen all the relevant Census's ?. If you haven't yet, then that's fine and we'll help, but it helps us to know in advance.
Re your query abt family in service, please give an indication as to who and when ?. Often such information is indicated by Marriage Records and Census returns.

Looking forward to helping more in due course.

------------------

OOPS !!.

Apologies all, I wrote this a few hours ago but forgot to press post as was continuing to research, while Mike was working-away at the same time..., see my next post which hopefully builds on Mike's findings.

-----------------

As a starter, I cannot find Rosa's marriage in this site's PRs.
However FreeBBMD & GlosBMD has

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
VAILE Samuel SELWYN Rosa Maria Gloucester Gloucester St Michael 1863 35x No 2 108

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1863 (>99%)
Selwyn Rosa Maria Gloucester 6a 534

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/SimpleSearch.aspx
http://www.freebmd.org.uk

SO, even by 1863 there seems to be a leaning away from Westbury towards Gloucester, any idea why that is Lauren ?, perhaps it's Samuel's work as a Corn Porter at Glotser Docks it seems ref the Census'(see next post below) ?.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Michael's_Tower,_Gloucester
http://www.glosgen.co.uk/records/michchurch.htm

Familysearch;

Name Samuel Vaile
Event Type Census
Event Date 31 Mar 1901
Event Place Wotton Vill, Gloucestershire, England
County Gloucestershire
Civil Parish Wotton Vill
Ecclesiastical Parish St Mary De Lode
Sub-District Kingsholm
Registration District Gloucester
Gender Male
Age 60
Occupation Dock Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household Patient
Birth Year (Estimated) 1841
Birthplace Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Page Number 30

(Is he in the old Gloster Royal Hospital ?. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wotton,_Gloucester)
NO!, the Royal wasn't built until 1912. This is therefore possibly the Asylum, sadly, need to see the full Census to be sure.

WOOTTON, [sic] a hamlet and a ville in St. Mary-de-Lode parish, Gloucestershire; adjacent to Gloucester city. Real property, £5,425. Pop. of the hamlet in 1851, 1,174; in 1861, 1,562,-of whom 578 were in the county lunatic asylum. Houses, 204. Pop. of the ville, in 1851, 56; in 1861, 91. Houses, 21.
Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales(1870–72).

Also see http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol4/pp269-275

Death Details
Surname Given Names Age Year Died District Register Entry
VAILE Samuel 59 1901 Gloucester, Barnwood 2 157
(FreeBMD record shows he died April/May/June 1901).

For more background about Barnwood/Horton Road Asylum, search this forum for prior threads, eg http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=14550
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?mode=thread&id=44005

-----

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1923 (>99%)
VAILE Rosa M 77 Dudley 6b 932

-----

1901 Census, Clegram Road, St Luke, South Hamlet, Gloucester.
Rosa Vaile Head F 54 Awre, Gloucestershire
Alice Vaile Daughter F 21 Drapers Assistant. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Harold Vaile Son M 17 Engineers Apprentice. Gloucester, Gloucestershire

1891 Census, New Street, St Paul, South Hamlet, Gloucester.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Samuel Vail Head M 50 Corn porter. Gloucestershire, England
Rosa M Vail Wife F 44 Gloucestershire, England
Ebenezer J Vail Son M 17 Wood Machinist. England
Alice M Vail Daughter F 11 Gloucester, England
Harold S Vail Son M 7 England

1881 Census, New Street, Barton St Mary, Gloucester.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Samuel Vaile Head M 40 Corn Porter. Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England
Rosa Maria Vaile Wife F 34 Awre, Gloucestershire
Rosa Annie Vaile Daughter F 11 Chaxhill, Gloucestershire
Ebenezer James Albert Vaile Son M 7 Gloster, Gloucestershire
Lillian Rachael Vaile Daughter F 4 Gloster, Gloucestershire
Alice Maud Vaile Daughter F 1 Gloster, Gloucestershire
Rosa Matilda Cook Cousin F 18 Brynmawr, Brecknockshire, Wales
Vaile Samuel Gloucester 6a 534

1871 Census, Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Samuel Vaile Head M 29 Corn Porter. Westbury On Severn, <Blank>
Rosa M Vaile Wife F 24 Awre, <Blank>
Fanny Vaile Daughter F 7 Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Anne Vaile Daughter F 1 Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire

1861 Census, Gloucester Road, Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Rachel Vaile Mother In Law F 83 Widow. Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Samuel Vaile Nephew M 21 Unmarried, Ag lab. Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
(Part of household missing?, perhaps on previous image?)

-----

Here's Rachel again, but clearly NOT the same, or our, Samuel this time. I presume these first three are parents & son, but unsure ? Not the first Rachel mentioned in this post..

1841 Census, Lower Ley, Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Vaile M 70-74 Gloucestershire
Rachel Vaile F 60-64 Gloucestershire
Samuel Vaile M 30-34 Gloucestershire
Ellen Vaile F 14 Gloucestershire
William Mann M 14 Gloucestershire

1851 Census, Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Vaile Head M 49 Widower, Lab. Westbury, Gloucestershire
James Vaile Son M 20 Umarried, lab. Westbury, Gloucestershire
Cornelius Vaile Son M 18 Umarried, lab. Westbury, Gloucestershire
Charles Vaile Son M 15 Westbury, Gloucestershire
Samuel Vaile Son M 10 Westbury, Gloucestershire

-----

Back to our line;

1841 Census, Bolloe, Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Vaile M 30-34 Gloucestershire
Eliza Vaile F 30-34 Gloucestershire
Eliza Vaile F 12 Gloucestershire
James Vaile M 10 Gloucestershire
Sarah Vaile F 9 Gloucestershire
Cornelius Vaile M 8 Gloucestershire
Charles Vaile M 6 Gloucestershire
Samuel Vaile M 8 months Gloucestershire

Record_ID: 63042
Entry_Number: 170
Year: 1840
Month: Nov
Day: 8
Parents_Surname: VAILE
Child_Forenames: Samuel
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Eliza
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Westbury
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: TM Wetherell Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P354 IN 1/14
Page_Number: 22
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn
Soundex: V400

--------------------

Clearly there's a LOT of Samuel Vailes from W-o-S, including this one born abt 1832, I wonder if he's a relation so a clue to our Samuel moving to Gloucester Barton St Mary 25 years later ?.

1851 Census, Back Terrace, Barton St Mary, Gloucester.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Samuel Aldridge Head M 31 , Gloucestershire
Ann Aldridge Wife F 32 , Gloucestershire
George Aldridge Son M 7 , Gloucestershire
William Aldridge Son M 5 , Gloucestershire
Ralph Aldridge Son M 2 , Gloucestershire
Albert Aldridge Son M 2 MOS , Gloucestershire
Samuel Vaile Brother-In-Law M 19 , Unmarried. Porter. Gloucestershire

Looks like him;

Record_ID: 62450
Entry_Number: 1177
Year: 1832
Month: Sep
Day: 16
Parents_Surname: VAILE
Child_Forenames: Samuel
Fathers_Forenames: Samuel
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Westbury
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: William Crawley
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P354 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 148
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn
Soundex: V400

Why did Rosa die in Dudley, as per my earlier post;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1923 (>99%)
VAILE Rosa M 77 Dudley 6b 932

I wonder if she was living with son Harold, an "engineer's apprentice" in 1901 ?
By then Dudley was a central hotbed of the Industrial Revolution and Black Country engineering. This was largely due to Dud Dudley's work in iron-ore smelting in the early 1700s, Dud was related to the great ironmaster Abraham Darby of Coalbrookdale fame.

Searching FreeBMD for all "Vailes" in "Dudley" gives both her children's marriages;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1906 (>99%)
BURFORD William Dudley 6c 99
BUTTERY Richard Dudley 6c 99
PULLEY Mary Ruth Dudley 6c 99
VAILE Alice Maud Dudley 6c 99

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1911 (>99%)
BLACKHAM Annie Dudley 6c 153
Haden Maria Dudley 6c 153
Little John S Dudley 6c 153
Vaile Harold S Dudley 6c 153

-----

Looking like Alice married Richard BUTTERY, see;

Deaths Mar 1970 (>99%)
BUTTERY Alice Maud 10Mr1880 N.Kesteven 3b 361

Cannot find any children.

Brother Harold also lived a long life !

Deaths Mar 1975 (89%)
VAILE HAROLD SELWYN 30AU1883 RUGBY 31 275

And he'd married Annie Blackham, born abt 1885;

Deaths Sep 1962 (>99%)
VAILE Annie 77 Rugby 9c 773

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Mar 1913 (>99%)
Vaile Mollie Blackham Rugby 6d 1509

=================

LATER UPDATE FOLLOWING MIKE SHEPWAY'S SUBSEQUENT POSTS.

Clearly I've got the wrong marriage combination for Alice Maud Vaile, just to confirm she actually married William BURFORD and not Richard Buttery, despite what seemed a decent fit on "her" death record. Ah well..

Just realised no-ones yet posted Alice's birth record, altho the Census' all suggest 1880.
I cannot find a Baptism PR in this site's database, but GlosBMD has her born in 1879, as does FreeBMD;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
VAILE Alice Maud VAILE VAILE SELWYN 1879 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 39 198

Births Sep 1879 (>99%)
Vaile Alice Maud Gloucester 6a 314

(ie birth was registered during the Qtr of July/August/September, 1879)

Taking up the children listed at the beginning of Mike's post we have:

Rosa Annie was in service in 1911 in Gloucester. and she appears to have died in 1916:

Deaths Dec 1916
Vaile Rosie A 47 Upton 6c 177

Next is Ebenezer James Albert:
He married in 1898 in St James, Gloucester
Marriages Dec 1898
HOOK Florence Ann Gloucester 6a 552
Vaile Ebenezer James Gloucester 6a 552

and is found in Thornbury in 1939:
Vaile Household (2 People)
3 Pier View Villa Newtown, Thornbury R.D., Gloucestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Florence A Vaile 17 Jun 1880 Female House Keeper Married 73 2
Ebenezer J Vaile 06 Dec 1873 Male Dock Labourer Heavy Worker Married 73 1

His death:
Deaths Jun 1965
VAILE EBENEZER J 91 Thornbury 7b 550

Lilian Rachel survived just 5 years:
Births Jun 1877
VAILE Lilian Rachel Gloucester 6a 316
Deaths Sep 1882
Vaile Lilian Rachel 5 Gloucester 6a 166

Alice Maud married in 1906:
Marriages Dec 1906
BURFORD William Dudley 6c 99
VAILE Alice Maud Dudley 6c 99

The 1939 Register places them in Dudley and tells us that Alice married again.
Burford Household (2 People)
3 Lloyd Street , Dudley C.B., Worcestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Alice M Hornsey (Burford) 06 Jul 1879 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 117 2
William Burford 22 Feb 1877 Male Iron Turner Retired Married 117 1

Deaths Mar 1940
Burford William 61 Dudley 6c 12

Marriages Sep 1948
Burford Alice M Hornsey Dudley 9d 293
Hornsey Albert Burford Dudley 9d 293

Deaths Mar 1969
HORNSEY ALICE M 89 BROMSGROVE 9D 31

The 1939 Register places Harold in Rugby:
Vaile Household (4 People)
27 Park Road , Rugby M.B., Warwickshire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Harold S Vaile 30 Aug 1883 Male Inspector (Engineer) Metal Turner Married 17 1
Joseph (Henry) Wren 20 Feb 1897 Male Fitter Engineer Experimental Single 17 2
William Evans 08 Dec 1894 Male Clerk Engineering Accounts Single 17 3
Annie Vaile 23 Sep 1884 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 17 4

Deaths Sep 1962
VAILE Annie 77 Rugby 9c 773

Deaths Mar 1975
VAILE HAROLD SELWYN 30AU1883 RUGBY 31 275

The enquiry from Lauren tells us that her grandmother Winifred Irene was born in 1906 to Alice Maud who we now know married William Burford later that year. I could not find a marriage for Winifred Vaile but there is a marriage registered in 1927 as follows:
Marriages Dec 1927
ASTON Richard Burford Dudley 6b 2131
Burford Winifred I V Aston Dudley 6b 2131

and the 1939 Register places them as follows:
Aston Household (4 People)
104 Ivanhoe Street,Stourbridge , Dudley C.B., Worcestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Winifred I Aston 05 Mar 1906 Female Unpaid Domestic Housing Duties Married 144 2
Richard Aston 18 Nov 1904 Male Butcher Shop Manager Married 144 1
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

This suggests Winifred returned to her mother before marriage.

Mike

Since posting the above I located the 1911 Census for Alice Maud and family:

Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Years Married Occupation Birth Place Address
William Burford Head 1877 34 Male Married Iron Turner Hartpury, Gloucestershire 16 Bond Street, Dudley
Alice Maud Burford Wife 1880 31 Female Married 4 Gloucester 16 Bond Street, Dudley
Ernest Vaile StepSon 1905 6 Male scholar Crickhowell, Breconshire 16 Bond Street, Dudley
Harold William Burford Son 1907 4 Male Cradley Heath, Staffordshire 16 Bond Street, Dudley
Eric Selwyn Burford Son 1909 2 Male Dudley, Worcestershire 16 Bond Street, Dudley

This tells us that Alice had a son out of wedlock in 1904 and this is the birth registration:
Births Sep 1904
VAILE Ernest Selwyn V Crickhowell 11b 111

I have not found a marriage for Ernest Vaile but there is a marriage as follows:
Marriages Sep 1931
Burford Ernest Unwin Birmingham S. 6d 549
Unwin Beatrice F Burford Birmingham S. 6d 549

and this is the entry from the 1939 Register:
Burford Household (3 People)
41 Landswood Road , Oldbury M.B., Worcestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Ernest S Burford 19 Jun 1904 Male Draughtsman Electrical Engineering Married 317 1
Beatrice F Burford 21 Feb 1907 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 317 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

His death:
Name: Ernest Selwyn Burford
Birth Date: 19 Jun 1904
Date of Registration: Jun 1979
Age at Death: 75
Registration district: Swansea
Inferred County: West Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 2219

and his wife
Name: Beatrice Frances Burford
Birth Date: 21 Feb 1907
Date of Registration: Apr 2004
Age at Death: 97
Registration district: Swansea
Inferred County: Glamorgan
Register Number: C160
District and Subdistrict: 897/1C
Entry Number: 31

Mike

Hi Mike,
thanks for explaining why I couldn't find my Alice Maud BUTTERY and her "husband" Richard BUTTERY on the 1911 Census, just before I sat down for dinner. Just my luck another Alice Maud Buttery, who was clearly NOT nee Vaile, was also born in 1880.... Ah well, at least I got Harold's marriage correct ;-)

A query if I may wrt understanding your 1939 Register transcripts, I have no experience of this database yet.

"The 1939 Register places them in Dudley and tells us that Alice married again.
Burford Household (2 People)
3 Lloyd Street , Dudley C.B., Worcestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Alice M Hornsey (Burford) 06 Jul 1879 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 117 2
William Burford 22 Feb 1877 Male Iron Turner Retired Married 117 1

Deaths Mar 1940
Burford William 61 Dudley 6c 12

Marriages Sep 1948
Burford Alice M Hornsey Dudley 9d 293
Hornsey Albert Burford Dudley 9d 293

Deaths Mar 1969
HORNSEY ALICE M 89 BROMSGROVE 9D 31"

I'm sure I'm missing the obvious here, but if Alice didn't become a Hornsey until 1948, how does that surname get a mention in the 1939 Register ?.
Again, not disputing your findings, just confused by that line, sorry.
Thanks, Jeff.

The 1939 Register was updated until 1991 see:
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register/1939-register-getting-started

The entry for Alice Maud was amended as follows:
A line is drawn through Burford and Hornsey written above. In the column to the left is added the date 15.10.48 and the letters QHA.

Mike

The newspaper entry to confirm Rosey Annie’s death:-

BNA Cheltenham Chronicle - Saturday 02 December 1916

Nov. 21. 1916. Rosey Annie, daughter of the late Samuel and Rosa Maria Vaile, late of 45 New-street, Gloucester, aged 46 years.

Also this,

BNA Cheltenham Chronicle - Saturday 26 December 1914

LOCAL WILLS. MR. WILLIAM JACQUES LEAVES £IO.I32. The will of Mr. William Jacques, of No. 52 Worcester-street, Gloucester, retired architect and surveyor, who died on Nov. 19 last, aged 92 years, has been proved by the executors……………………..
……………………………….The gross value of estate is returned at £10,132 6s. 7d., including £1,744 17s. net personalty. The will is dated Jan. 30, 1911, whereby testator leaves £5O to his cook, Rosey Anne Vaile, if in his service at his decease……………………

Thanks Mike for explaining that, very helpful. As indeed appears to be the 1939 Register, which is great to hear as until now I've read about several people on this forum and others having difficulties with it, but your usage has proven to me that it can be really useful and that I need to sign-up for it, especially as it's been updated after 1939 which I hadn't realised.
Many thanks again, Jeff

In 1901 Samuel VAILE appears to be a patient in Wotton Hill asylum. There are BNA reports of what led to this which I can download and send to you if of interest (via the blue envelope).

Thanks so much for all of this - and yes please, I would absolutely love to know what led to Samuel Vaile being at Wotton Hill asylum! That would be amazing. Thank you so much.

Dear everyone - thank you all SO MUCH. The time and the work that you've all put into helping a total stranger has absolutely floored me. Can't thank you enough!!!

The information here is amazing. Yes indeed, they did end up in the midlands, where my grandparents were both born, and my great grandmother did become Winifred Aston. My grandmother has mentioned Ivanhoe St to me so seeing it in print like that was very strange.

All of this is so appreciated I can't even tell you.

Gosh, thanks so much for all this - amazing. I actually have seen a photo of my great grandmother Winifred Irene with her two younger brothers - but didn't know she had an older one too!

Do you think there's any way of finding out what happened to the two younger ones?

Harold William Burford Son 1907 4 Male Cradley Heath, Staffordshire 16 Bond Street, Dudley
Eric Selwyn Burford Son 1909 2 Male Dudley, Worcestershire 16 Bond Street, Dudley

There was a bit of family hearsay that claimed one of them had died in an asylum - I'm wondering whether this was a mix-up with Samuel Vaile (Rosa Maria's husband) who was in an asylum in Wootton in the 1901 census...

Do you think there's any way of finding out what happened to the two younger ones?

Harold William Burford Son 1907 4 Male Cradley Heath, Staffordshire 16 Bond Street, Dudley
Eric Selwyn Burford Son 1909 2 Male Dudley, Worcestershire 16 Bond Street, Dudley

There was a bit of family hearsay that claimed one of them had died in an asylum - I'm wondering whether this was a mix-up with Samuel Vaile (Rosa Maria's husband) who was in an asylum in Wootton in the 1901 census...

Hi Lauren,
searching the FreeBMD website suggests Harold may have died fairly young. (it's free to use if you want to try it yourself http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl ). Sadly the records post 1911 don't usually include full second names so a little more difficult to be sure, the only way to be certain is by ordering the relevant Certificates. Luckily there are only a few hits for his name, this seems the best fit = correct age and not too far from Dudley whether by rail or water.

Surname Given Name Age District Volume Page
Deaths Jun 1929
Burford Harold W 22 Upton 6c 158

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/upton%20on%20severn.html

I cannot see a Will etc for him on Ancestry, and I think this is probably his record.

-----------

However Eric looks a little trickier, especially as ALL the various possible hits for Eric on FreeBMD site are in the West Midlands area, as follows;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Mar 1909 (>99%)
BURFORD Eric Selwyn Dudley 6c 132

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Births Sep 1920 (>99%)
Burford Eric S Gilson Wolverhampton 6b 1209

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1930 (>99%)
Burford Eric S Pargeter Stourbridge 6c 55
Pargeter Patience Burford Stourbridge 6c 55

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1944 (>99%)
BURFORD Eric S Shinton Wolverhampton 6b 1369
SHINTON Olive G Burford Wolverhampton 6b 1369
(see PS below)

Deaths Mar 1948 (>99%)
Burford Eric S 38 Dudley 9d 72

Marriages Dec 1960 (>99%)
BURFORD Eric S BEECH Bilston 9b 89

It's reasonable to assume, altho by no means certain, that the two Wolverhampton Records are the same Eric, not yours, which suggests your Eric MAY have married Patience Pargeter in 1930 when he turned 21.
Sadly it does seem likely that he also died young, back in the Dudley area in 1948 aged just 38.

Oddly, I cannot see an obvious Birth for Patience Pargeter, perhaps she had already been married ?. Searching on Ancestry gives the following record which seems a good fit, it appears she was a little older than Eric;

1928 Kelly's Directory of Worcestershire,
Patience Pargeter (Mrs.), deputy supt. registrar, Dudley Union, Union Offices, St James Rd, Dudley.
Samuel D Pargeter, Superintendant Registrar, Dudley union.

Searching Samuel in FreeBMD gives following records which fit perfectly;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Dec 1874 (>99%)
Pargeter Samuel Davies Dudley 6c 163

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1923 (>99%)
Dean Patience Pargeter Dudley 6b 1936
Pargeter Samuel D Dean Dudley 6b 1936

Deaths Mar 1929 (>99%)
Pargeter Samuel D 54 Dudley 6b 1714

Tracing Patience's background is rather trickier. Patience Dean isn't a rare name, nor is Patience Ann Dean. I say this as this MIGHT be her death record, the only "Patience Burford" death on FreeBMD, and in the correct area too;
Deaths Sep 1969 (>99%)
BURFORD Patience Ann 2Mr1898 Dudley 9b 298

This gives her birth as 2 March 1898, which equates to this birth registered in the Qtr of July-September 1898, and the "correct" area too;
Births Sep 1898 (>99%)
Dean Patience Ann Dudley 6c 107

HOWEVER, this Death Record could equally be hers, suggesting this Patience isn't yours ???

Deaths Sep 1937 (>99%)
Dean Patience A 39 Rowley R. 6b 746

Rowley Regis District is in Staffs, created in 1935 from part of the old Dudley District.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/districts.pl?r=174716126:7103&d=bmd_1457964543

Again I cannot find a Will for her on Ancestry, or any births of children for her and Eric, or Samuel.

????

------

PS Ref the other "Eric S Burford" marriage, this is the bride's birth;
Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Births Dec 1924 (>99%)
Shinton Olive G Pinches Wolverhampton 6b 970
Oddly I cannot find any later records for her as a Burford..?
------------

As stated above, altho' quite expensive, ordering the Death Certificates for the above records will indicate how (illness, accident etc) and precisely where Harold and Eric died. That's if they wern't also covered in the local newspapers, altho my searches haven't found them.

In 1901 Samuel VAILE appears to be a patient in Wotton Hill asylum. There are BNA reports of what led to this which I can download and send to you if of interest (via the blue envelope).

Thanks so much for all of this - and yes please, I would absolutely love to know what led to Samuel Vaile being at Wotton Hill asylum! That would be amazing. Thank you so much.

If you contact me via the blue envelope next to my username with a suitable email address I will get them to you. It's best not to put this information in a public post.

This is Eric and family in the 1939 Register:
Burford Household (3 People)
24 Oakham Avenue , Dudley C.B., Worcestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Eric S Burford 15 Feb 1907 Male Hairdresser Assistant Married 178 1
Patience A Burford 02 Mar 1902 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 178
Peter A Burford 03 Jun 1936 Male Under School Age Single 178 3

Patience gives her date of birth as 2 March 1902 however the death registration is a little different:

Deaths Sep 1969
BURFORD Patience Ann 2Mr1898 Dudley 9b 298

Patience is older that Eric so may have been economical with the truth

There are 2 birth registrations for a Patience A Dean as follows:

Births Jun 1898
Dean Patience Ann Stourbridge 6c 193

Births Sep 1898
Dean Patience Ann Dudley 6c 107

We know that one married Eric S Buford and this is the marriage of the other:
Marriages Dec 1917
Dean John J Dean Dudley 6b 1634
Dean Patience A Dean Dudley 6b 1634

Jeff has listed a death of a Patience A Dean in 1937 so John would be widowed in 1939 unless he remarried by then. Here he is in the 1939 Register:
Dean Household (2 People)
208 Pedmore Road , Dudley C.B., Worcestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
John J (Joseph) Dean 22 Aug 1896 Male General Labourer Brick? Widowed 19 1
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

Mike

Wow, thanks Mike, once again I clean forgot about the 1939 "Census", so very useful once again !

Thanks for confirming my thoughts re Patience Ann Dean; yes I saw her earlier (possible) marriage to another Dean but didnt spot that this was a different Patience, and by then I was beginning to doubt that trail, I was almost leaning toward the other Eric S Burford marriage as being ours as that wife Olive Shinton seemed a more likely age.
Not sure why I didn't spot their son's birth tho, I did look (I think!).
FreeBMD gives a little more detail;

Births Sep 1936 (>99%)
Burford Peter A D Dean Birmingham 6d 784

This may be his Marriage, I cannot find any more records for either of them ?;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1956 (>99%)
Body Barbara J Burford Dudley 9d 245
Burford Peter A Body Dudley 9d 245
ingham 9c 906

Births Dec 1933 (>99%)
Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Body Barbara J Lickert Stourbridge 6c 39

Thanks again Mike, Jeff.