I am looking for any birth record or parents names for Samuel Jones born approximately 1825. The 1871 census shows him married to Sarah and states his place of birth Clearwell Glou. The 1891 census shows him married to Matilda Thomas and states his place of birth as Forest of Dean Glouster. His marriage registration in 1885 to Matilda Thomas states his fathers name was Samuel Jones and his occupation was farmer. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Sonia welcome to the forum. You probably know that JONES is statistically the most common surname in the Forest, and Samuel isn't a rare name either, so this may be a tricky query !. Probably the easiest way is to find him is still living with or near to his parents on the earlier Census returns, I guess from your post that so-far you only have his 1871 & 1891 records ?

I think this might be him in 1881, it was entirely normal for Foresters to move into the industrial parts of Monmouthshire, and vice versa, chasing work. Hopefully the details for his job, and age etc for his wife Sarah matches the info you have ?. Luckily this record also includes Sarah's mother;

1881; Bottom of Garn, Trevethin with Pontypool, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Samuel Jones Head Married Male 56 1825 Blacksmith At I Works Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah Jones Wife Married Female 56 1825 - Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
Ellen Jones Daughter Single Female 20 1861 Dom Serv Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
Samuel Jones Son Single Male 18 1863 Collier Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
Jane Davies Mother In Law Widow Female 81 1800 - Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England

The Census image shows there is a note in the extreme R/H column against Sarah saying "partially insane of years". This may well explain her absence from your 1891 Census record for Samuel.

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Also found this record which seems a good fit EXCEPT wrt his link to Ann STEPHENS ???.

1851; Garndiffeath, Trevethin, Pentypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ann Stephens Head Widow Female 64 1787 Beer Retailer Monmouthshire, Wales
Samuel Jones Son-In-Law Married Male 29 1822 Black Smith Clearwell, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah Jones Wife Married Female 27 1824 - Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
John Jones Son - Male 3 1848 At Home Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
Sarah Jones Daughter - Female 2 1849 At Home Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales
Thomas Milgrove Lodger Unmarried Male 23 1828 Miner Blackwell, Somerset, England
Mary Rees - Married Female 40 1811 Servant Monmouthshire, Wales

I'm afraid I must go now, but will try to revisit this later on.
atb J

There is a marriage between SAMUEL JONES and SARAH STEPHENS in Q3 1844 in Pontypool District which I found in FreeBMD.

In GR 1841 Census, Trevethin, there is,

Henry TURNER, 20, Labourer, Not born in county [corrected from Henry JONES]
Samuel JONES, 15, Smith, Not born in county

Freereg

County: Monmouthshire
Church name: St Cadoc
Register type: Parish Register
Marriage date: 11 August 1844

Samuel JONES, full age, Bachelor
Groom residence: Garndiffaith

Groom occupation: Blacksmith

Sarah STEPHENS, full age, Spinster
Bride residence: Garndiffaith

Groom's father: Samuel JONES, occupation : Farmer

Bride's father; John STEPHENS, occupation: Ostler

witnesses: Joseph WAYMAN ** and James SAUNDERS

*** Joseph is on the 1841 census for Trevethin and is a Shoemaker

Thanks for the above posts ref Samuel and first wife Sarah.

I think this is her in the 1841 Census.

1841; Vartig Hill, Trevethin, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
John Stephens Male 70 1771 Labourer, born out of county.
Anne Stephens Female 45 1796 Monmouthshire, Wales
Sarah Stephens Female 15 1826 Monmouthshire, Wales

What originally puzzled me on my earlier post was how the 1881 Census gave Samuel's mother-in-law, and hence wife Sarah's mother, was shown as Jane DAVIES born 1800,
yet the 1851 Census shows her as Ann STEPHENS born abt 1787.

???

In GR 1841 Census, Trevethin, there is,

Henry JONES, 20, Labourer, Not born in county
Samuel JONES, 15, Smith, Not born in county

Thanks Mike, however FindMyPast have transcribed this a little differently, and the image confirms they're correct;

1841 Garndiffath, Trevethin, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
David Williams Male 30 1811 -
Mary Williams Female 25 1816 Monmouthshire, Wales
Elizabeth Williams Female 3 1838 Monmouthshire, Wales
John Williams Male 1 1840 Monmouthshire, Wales
Henry Turner Male 20 1821 - Not born in county
Samuel Jones Male 15 1826 - Not born in county

But they also have this = ??? ;

1841; 10 Houses, Trevethin, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
Griff Jones Male 45 1796 - Baptist minister. Not born in county
Hannah Jones Female 45 1796 - Not born in county
Samuel Jones Male 15 1826 - Moulder??. Not born in county
Thomas Jones Male 14 1827 - Not born in county
Daniel Jones Male 11 1830 - Not born in county
Mary Jones Female 9 1832 - Not born in county
Griffith Jones Male 7 1834 Monmouthshire, Wales
John Jones Male 4 1837 Monmouthshire, Wales

===============

Similarly for 1871 they have these two households, the first is "our" Samuel;

1871; Victoria Village, Trevethin, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Samuel Jones Head - Male 47 1824 - Blacksmith. Gloucestershire, England
Sarah Jones Wife - Female 46 1825 - Monmouthshire, Wales
Ellen Jones Daughter - Female 10 1861 - Scholar. Monmouthshire, Wales
Samuel Jones Son - Male 8 1863 - Scholar. Monmouthshire, Wales
Sarah Jones Aunt - Female 74 1797 - Accountant. Monmouthshire, Wales

1871; Johns Row, Trevethin, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Samuel Jones Head - Male 44 1827 - Engineer. Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England
Esther Jones Wife - Female 43 1828 - Monmouthshire, Wales
Samuel Jones Son - Male 23 1848 - Stoker. Littledean, Gloucestershire, England
Thomas Jones Son - Male 10 1861 - Monmouthshire, Wales
Hannah Jones Daughter - Female 8 1863 - Monmouthshire, Wales
Harriet Jones Daughter - Female 5 1866 - -
Edward Jones Son - Male 3 1868 - Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England

======================

FMP show a Burial for a Samuel Jones in Trevethin, Pontypool on 22 Nov 1890, aged 63, which fits the above Ruardean man.

But here's our Samuel in 1891, as Sonia has found he's with a new wife & family;

1891; 28 Harpers Road, Victoria Village, Trevethin with Pontypool, Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Samuel Jones Head Married Male 66 1825 Blacksmith. Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England.
Matilda Jones Wife Married Female 23 1868 - Garndiffaith, Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary J Jones Daughter - Female 5 1886 - Garndiffaith, Monmouthshire, Wales
Richard Hy Jones Son - Male 3 1888 - Garndiffaith, Monmouthshire, Wales
Philip G Jones Son - Male 0 1891 - Garndiffaith, Monmouthshire, Wales

FMP has a Marriage Record for Samuel Jones & Matilda Thomas in Pontypool, 3rd Qtr 1885.

And this Death Record for a Samuel Jones in Pontypool, 1st Qtr 1894, aged 70, whioch fit's our man.

FreeBMD has a few possible Death Records for our "Sarah Jones" aged c56 in Pontypool during the mid 1880s, altho she may have died outside the area in hospital etc.

??

Hi Jeff,

Apologies, you are absolutely correct about Henry TURNER. I may have had my glasses on upside down.

On the 1871 census....

The Aunt, Sarah JONES aged 74 c 1797 - (think she is an Annuitant, (receiving benefits) not Accountant), and gives places of birth as LLanover.

----

?????

1861 Census, Monmouthshire, Trevethin, District 7

Henry JONES - 64 Blacksmith - born Llaneora (as transcribed)
Sarah JONES - 61 born "ditto"
Lemuel JONES - 26, Plate Layer born Caerleon
Louiza JONES - 23 - House Servant, born Caerleon

----

1851 Monmouthshire, Trevethin

Henry JONES - 52, Blacksmith - born Mon. Pouthowe (as transcribed0
Sarah JONES
and the children

Jane - 26 all born Caerleon
Fanny - 20
Henry - 17
Samuel - 18
Louiza - 14

+

Thomas JONES, 26, (c1826) Nephew, Block layer, born Newchurch, Monmouthshire ****

---

1841 census, Mon, Trevethin

Henry JONES - 40 - Blacksmith
Sarah JONES - 40
Mary - 12
Henry - 8
Samuel 6
Louiza 6

---

**
On Freereg

Again at the same church, 28 December 1843

Thomas JONES, residence: Abersychan - occupation, Butcher

Father: Samuel JONES, farmer (deceased)

married Mary JONES, father: Thomas JONES

witnesses again: Joseph WAYMAN and James SAUNDERS (same as Samuel JONES marriage, either friends, or church wardens?

----

There may be other JONES - with father Samuel a Farmer married at St Cadoc - but there are so many JONES on Freereg

On the 1871 census....

The Aunt, Sarah JONES aged 74 c 1797 - (think she is an Aunniutant, not Accountant), and gives places of birth as LLanover.

----

There may be other JONES - with father Samuel a Farmer married at St Cadoc - but there are so many JONES on Freereg

Thanks for that M, great post all round !. I like to learn something new every day and once again you've made my otherwise grey day, AND given me a good laugh too.

Re "Aunniutant". I did think Accountant seemed a little odd but twas late..., thanks to you I now know that annuity etc comes from the French and in this case is a grand term for a "pensioner".

And yes, not only on Freereg but anywhere in the extended FoD area, there are indeed so many of us Jones', if not too many ;-) . During my own researches I've often wished I had a more unusual surname, altho' at least Jones was invaribaly spelt / transcribed icorrectly, altho in this modern multicultural world it's often pronounced Johns.

Thanks and best regards, J

Thank you for your help. I did see the 1851 census and I did think it was the same
Samuel Jones married to Sarah Stephens that went on to marry my husbands great grandmother Matilda Thomas. The confusing points were that there was ten years between Sarah's first two children and her last two. I did look into her hospital records and she was in the hospital numerous times because of her illness. The mother in laws name change on the different census records also was confusing. Samuel's age changes two to five years on some of the records. Is it common for variances in age as much as five years or more?

Thank you so much for the details of Samuel's first marriage to Sarah Stephens. I am still learning how to access records.

Thank you. This could very well be Samuel and possibly his older brother. I am assuming the occupation smith is short for blacksmith . I now have a new reference point to work from.

I made a mistake with this one. Although Samuel JONES is correct the other name is actually Henry TURNER so not his older brother.

Thank you . This gives me more to research about possible siblings.

Thank you for your help. I did see the 1851 census and I did think it was the same
Samuel Jones married to Sarah Stephens that went on to marry my husbands great grandmother Matilda Thomas. The confusing points were that there was ten years between Sarah's first two children and her last two. I did look into her hospital records and she was in the hospital numerous times because of her illness. The mother in laws name change on the different census records also was confusing. Samuel's age changes two to five years on some of the records. Is it common for variances in age as much as five years or more?

Hi Sonia, glad we could be of help fleshing-out your family. A quick reply for now:

Regarding the 10 years gap between births, are you looking at just those children named on Census forms, or do you include more you may have found from Birth/baptism records ?
If just the former, I guess there may have been more children born, but maybe they were staying in other households (family, friends) at the time of the Census, possibly as a result of Sarah's illness or stay in hospital ?. Again, if you're going from just the Census records, in those days even for healthy mothers infant mortality rates were very high, so maybe Sarah had more babies who didn't live to see the next Census ?.
I don't know what Sarah's illness was; could this have been caused by the stress of her losing babies, OR, could babies/infants have died as a result of her illness... ??

Eitherway, unlike nowadays, it wasn't unusual in those times for working-class families to have several children born over several years; for example my grandmother was the last of 13 children born over a 26 year period, all into a coalminer's family from Lydbrook (with occasional dips into Monmouthshire), this wasn't unusual in my experience.

Ref variations in ages, this is a regular forum query. I'm unsure as to what records you're comparing between, but note that ages in the 1841 Census were often rounded-up or down to the nearest 5 years. The later Census' recorded precise ages, but don't forget those ages recorded on the form were whatever the family told the census official, and they weren't checked against any other sources. Hence apparent age variations between Census years did occur, depending on people's own records, memories, or even standard of education - there were no National Databases etc etc to remind them.
Census ages also varied to depending on an individual's personal "vanity" - often ladies would lose a few years if approaching the "magic" ages of 30 and 40 etc, yet they sometimes gain a few years when in their old age, when seniority was seen to be a good thing. Also, if a couple married particularly young, or with a wide age disparity between man & wife, again sometimes they might massage their ages, both in front of their neighbours and hence in public records like Census'.

Hope this helps, J.

Your comments helped immensely. Also , I can understand some age alteration in marriages to make age differences look less. When Samuel married Matilda Thomas age seventeen in 1885 he stated he was fifty five but he was more likely sixty years old or more.