Hope someone will be able to help with the very difficult Harris Family. So so many of them!!

Cant definitely figure out anything about the above lady.

Her parents were 1868 Henry R Harris & 1874 Jessie Emma Hall, who in 1911 were living at 29 Upper Norwood Street, Cheltenham with their 3 children.

I am looking for whatever info someone might be able to find on Evelyn and her sister, 1905 Olive Harris, born in Cleeve Hill and 1900 Ernest Harris, born in Malvern Wells, Worcs.

The 1911 Census says 5 children born, 4 still living but i have only been able to find the three children i have mentioned.

Very grateful for any help

Hi,
sadly gotta be quick/brief for now;

GlosBMD have these Harris-Hall births in Cheltenham District around that time, not sure if all yours;

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HARRIS Victoria Emily HALL 1901 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Charlton Kings 2A 184
HARRIS Harry Ralph HALL 1903 Cheltenham Winchcombe, Cleeve 15 484
HARRIS Walter James HALL 1903 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Charlton Kings 2A 478
HARRIS Edward Bertie HALL 1904 Cirencester Cirencester, Cotswold 15 229
HARRIS Olive Louisa HALL 1904 Cheltenham Winchcombe, Cleeve 16 134
HARRIS Ellen Amelia HALL 1906 Cirencester Cirencester, Cotswold 15 314
HARRIS Evelyn Doris HALL 1908 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 21A 24

from
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/BirthSearch.aspx

But which are def your family ? I suspect those in bold, plus Ernest who was born in Malvern hence Worcestershire, so not in GlosBMD records.

Wrt FreeBMD and GlosBMD this looks like this Victoria's marriage, but who is she ?.
Cannot find on Census's using FamilySearch, but several Emily Harris' tho ??

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
ILES David Winfield HARRIS Victoria Emily Cirencester Cirencester Register Office 1925 15 74

---
Also need to look for burials, after dinner...

Thank you for replying Jeff.

1911 Census says 5 children born, one has died, so 4 still living.

The children i have found are\:

1900 Ernest Harris, born Malvern Wells
1905 Olive Harris, born Cleeve Hill
1908 Evelyn Harris, born Cheltenham area.

The father 1868 Henry R Harris was a Groom so i think the family seemed to move about, i imagine for jobs for him.

You're very welcome,
judging from the other births, I suspect the child who died was born abt 1903, which perhaps points towards Harry (previous post), who like the others was registered in Winchcombe.
??

To confirm what you know, FamilySearch has;

1911 Cheltenham, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Harris Head M 42 GROOM DOMESTIC. Kyre, Worcestershire
Jessie Harris Wife F 37 Haniton, Devonshire
Ernest Harris Son M 11 SCHOOL. Malvern Wells, Worcestershire
Alise Harris Daughter F 6 Cleeve Hill, Gloucestershire
Evylyn Harris Daughter F 3 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

FreeBMD helps confirm & clarify GlosBMD, as it also gives the Quarters the events were registered in.
So;

Re Evelyn (potential tricky to spell for the various record-takers and transcribers)

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Mar 1908 (>99%)
Harris Evelyn Doris Cheltenham 6a 428

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Mar 1905 (>99%)
Harris Olive Louise Winchcomb 6a 425

Really struggling to find a birth for Ernest on FreeBMD, in any district anywhere within the Malvern/Cheltenham/etc region.

???

Could this be their lost son ?

Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcribers
Births Jun 1903
HARRIS Harry Ralph Winchcomb 6a 443 karenp

Despite this being an unusual name, as yet I cannot find a Death Record.

??

(continued)

Instead of finding Harry's death Record (I searched Henry R.Harris' as well),
I found this rather awkward record... which fits perfectly, and far from dead.

1911 Eastville Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Lewis Knight Head M 43 ARMY PENSIONER COMMISSIONAIRE. Bristol, Gloucestershire
Lucy Ellen Knight Wife F 38 Boscorough Bridge, Lancashire
Harry Ralph Harris Nephew M 7 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

So, if Ralph is Jessie's son, then could Lucy be her sister ?

Try to find young Jessie in the earlier Census's; and yes we find sister Lucy Ellen too !!

1881 Shute Village, Axminster, Devon, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Hall Head M 38 Policeman. Sandford, Devon, England
Sarah J Hall Wife F 39 Taunton, Somerset, England
Lucy E Hall Daughter F 13 Burscough, Lancashire, England
George P H Hall Son M 11 St Leonards, Devon, England
Jessie E Hall Daughter F 7 Honiton, Devon, England
John W Hall Son M 4 Shute, Devon, England

1891 Musbury Road, Axminster, Devon, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Hall Head M 48 Retired Policeman Pensioner. Devonshire, England
Sarah J Hall Wife F 49 Somersetshire, England
Lucy E Hall Daughter F 28 Domestic Cook. Lancashire, England
Jessie E Hall Daughter F 17 Domestic Housemaid. Devonshire, England
John W Hall Son M 14 Stable Boy. Devonshire, England
Beatrice M Hall Daughter F 9 Devonshire, England
Earnest S Hall Son M 5 Devonshire, England

Not sure wrt 1901..

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1903 (>99%)
Hall Lucy Ellen Thanet 2a 2073
KNIGHT George Lewis Thanet 2a 2073

(Why Kent, perhaps George was there with the Army ??).

Back to FamilySearch;

Name George Lewis Knight
Gender Male
Christening Date 20 Jan 1867
Christening Date (Original) 20 JAN 1867
Christening Place Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name James Lewis Knight
Mother's Name Eliza Knight

Name George Lewis Knight
Event Type Christening
Event Date 20 Jan 1867
Event Place Clifton, St Andrew, Gloucestershire, England
Gender Male
Father's Name James Lewis Knight
Mother's Name Eliza Knight

1871 Clifton, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Eliza Knight Wife F 24 Laundress. Clifton, Gloucestershire
George Knight Son M 4 Clifton, Gloucestershire

Name James Lewis Knight
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 03 Sep 1866
Event Place Bristol, St George Brandon Hill, Gloucestershire, England
Gender Male
Marital Status Single
Father's Name Lewis Knight
Spouse's Name Eliza Griffin
Spouse's Residence Place Bristol, St George Brandon Hill, Gloucestershire
Spouse's Gender Female
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Father's Name George Griffin

Name James Lewis Knight
Birth Date 1847
Age 19
Spouse's Name Eliza Griffin
Spouse's Birth Date 1846
Spouse's Age 20
Event Date 03 Sep 1866
Event Place St. George-Brandon Hill, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name Lewis Knight
Spouse's Father's Name George Griffin

But struggling to find James in later Census'.
??

------------

Back to the Harris family, I'm struggling to find any of them in later records eg marriages and deaths. Do we know what happened to any of them ?.
They seem to have travelled around a lot !
I suggest the 1939 Register is worth searching if possible.

Hope this helps
J.

Thank you Jeff.

I had seen the records you mentioned but could not quite put them together!! Brain fog!!

It would seem that the one child was being raised by Jessie's sister or could just have been visiting at the time the Census was taken.

I have not been able to find very much about The Harris's in general. I have them in Malvern, Tenbury Wells, Clifton on Teme and Gloucestershire. Very confusing.

Isnt it confusing when looking at those births all with Hall as mother, marrying a Harris. and yet possibly not all the family i am researching.

A separate subject. Does this forum help with researching other areas or is it only confined to Gloucestershire?

Hello Jeff,

You might be interested to know that i have found the elusive Harry Ralph Harris!

I have found him on Australian Electoral Rolls in 1977 and 1980 with someone called Eva who may be his wife or daughter? Also a death record for him in 1984 in Victoria, Australia.

Cant find when he emigrated or when he married though?

Have not found the elusive child who has died or very much about the adult lives of the other children!

Regards
Sylvia

Hi
Re the surnames, its taken me ten years of researching, but now I'm never surprised just how many people, or family groups, who have similar names that I might have thought were unusual/rare, and then turn out to be not particularly linked to the people I knew or were researching, all just coincidence. Some names are naturally "rare" in one area, yet very common in another. But that said, yes very often if you go back far enough, you can find that these people who may never have any dealings with, or even knowledge of someone nowadays, do actually share common ancestry 3 or 4 generations back.

Re your last point, in theory this website/forum is not just confined to Gloucestershire, as per your comment, but is really confined to just the Forest of Dean part of it. When I first joined the forum 10 years ago that rule was quite strictly enforced by admin, but less so these days. Ideally of course, the post should have links to the Forest, at least to start with, as we know that Foresters have often moved around the county, country and even world for work in the past.

atb Jeff

Well done Sylvia, I recall I did see something come up when I was trawling the FamilySearch site "hits", but don't think that one was Harry. Trouble is it's easy to mentally think such and such a name must be the people I'm looking for, but in actual fact its another case of a name or name combination being far less rare than I'd assumed.

What source website etc are you using to search him, some are better than others for different parts of the world. Of course he may not have formally married at all, but just claimed he was.

Can't help but feel if he was the elusive child, and his parents (or were they bith his real parents ??) knew this when they filled-out the 1911 census. And then he ends up in Oz. Was he the black sheep, and why ?. MAybe a juvenile delinquent ?. Wonder if the old newspapers can help you find out more ?. Also still a bit worried that Harry was maybe officially christened Henry, often nicknames were used in Census returns, so may need to search that name as well ?

Derrr - only just twigged his father was Henry, so it's entirely possible if not rather likely he was christened Henry, and then known as Harry in the family - I've seen some very odd examples of how people can use and be known by completely irrelevant and incorrect names all their lives, even by their wives and families, and I'm thinking of modern times not just ye olde days !

--------------

Have you tried tracing the family in their later years, 1939 Register etc. Asking again as, like I said before, I searched them all in their later lives using FreeBMD etc and with no real luck. I wasn't sure if this just showed them to be naturally secretive, much as one gets with traveller communities such as canal or river folk (re Henry's moving about the country, often it seems near the Severn etc ?). Or maybe they all emigrated and joined Harry ?. You needn't post your findings/knowledge here, as it's all getting rather "recent", but it would help me if you do know any more abt the rest of them, so I can stop looking too. I guess you have some idea, maybe they're your own family ?

(By the way, these folk are not related to me in any way, I'm just an innocent bystander trying to help a fellow member of the forum.)

Looking again at Henry & Jessie, with a view to finding then post 1911 (unless you already have them ?). Using the 1911 census etc, can find (also on Familysearch etc);

1901 Upper Welland, Malvern Wells, Worcestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Harris Head M 32 GROOM DOMESTIC. Gt Kyre, Worcestershire
Jessie Harris Wife F 26 Honiton, Devonshire
Ernest Harris Son M 1 Malvern Wells, Worcestershire

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1898 (>99%)
Hall Jessie Emma Tenbury 6c 373
Harris Henry Richard Tenbury 6c 373

1891 Helena Street, Smethwick, Worcestershire
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Caroline Owen Head F 58 Widow. Staffordshire, England
Lily Owen Daughter F 18 Staffordshire, England
Alfred Hill Boarder M 19 Fitter. Hanley, Staffordshire, England
William Harris Boarder M 24 Gardener. Worcestershire, England
Henry Harris Boarder M 22 Groom. Worcestershire, England

(THINK this maybe our Henry ?)

1881 Mile End Place, Tenbury, Worcestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Maria Harris Head F 38 Widow. Charwomen, Tedstone, Herefordshire, England
Henery Harris Son M 12 Kyre, Worcestershire, England

1871 Sutton, Tenbury, Worcestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Harris Head M 30
Maria Harris Wife F 27 Agricultural Labourer. Clifton On Teme, Worcestershire
Arthur G Harris Son M 10 Clifton On Teme, Worcestershire
John Harris Son M 7 Great Kyre, Worcestershire
Fanny M Harris Daughter F 5 Great Kyre, Worcestershire
Henry R Harris Son M 2 Great Kyre, Worcestershire
Marion E Harris Daughter F 1 Great Kyre, Worcestershire

Name Henry Richard Harris
Gender Male
Christening Date 03 May 1868
Christening Date (Original) 03 MAY 1868
Christening Place GREAT KYRE,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name William Harris
Mother's Name Maria

-------

Yet still cannot find them for sure in later life with the resources I have, sorry.

My main source of research is Ancestry. I am also a member of a couple of Genealogy Forums, very like this. Their members are from all over the world so often have easier access to their own countries records.

I also check other public family history trees but have to be wary when doing this as not all trees are correct.

I absolutely agree with all your observations re family history research which makes it both extremely frustrating but at the same time truly amazing if you can find lots of information.

I have found the records you have mentioned for The Harris Family and i believe they are all related in some way (brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles etc)

I am in contact with a lady in Melbourne on one of the forums and she is going to see what she can find out.

Once again, Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to help me and i absolutely understand that this forum is only for researching Forest of Dean Area.

I will release you from your researching on my behalf on this occasion lol!!! Although, there may be future occasions as my husband's family are from the Kempley, Dymock area of Gloucestershire. So you never know. Watch this space

Regards
Sylvia

What is extremely useful on this website records (Ancestry doesn't) are the transcript of

Gloucestershire Marriage Licences Allegations 1637-1837
Marriage Bonds 1730-1823

Which are under the heading: Resources

Brides and Grooms on many occasions came from many other parts of the Country e.g. London.

If you search for residence: Cheltenham, there are 5,471 names - 26 from Ireland, 3 from Scotland and 4 record France etc etc - one 27 April 1825, when Jean Baptiste Benjamin ----- AULT (Captain of the Cavalry of the Body Guard of the King of France) was marrying Georgiana Elizabeth MOORE in Cheltenham.

the marriage on Ancestry reads: ARTAULT

---

Wedding records transcribed also give one the ability to search for witness at weddings helping with family groups, friends. etc

This is a possibility but it would take some birth/marriage certificates to confirm.

Ancestry 1939 Register
Altrincham General Hospital, 33 Market Street and Nurses Home

HARRIS Evelyn D, Female, 10 Feb 1908, Single, State Registered Nurse, State Certified Midwife

HARRIS has been amended to TURNER.

Name: Evelyn D Harris
Registration Date: Oct-Nov-Dec 1941
Registration district: Bucklow
Inferred County: Cheshire
Spouse: Charles W Turner
Volume Number: 8a
Page Number: 655

BNA Liverpool Daily Post - Thursday 23 October 1941
MARRIAGES
TURNER—HARRIS— Oct. 20, at St. Margaret’s Church, Bowden, by the Rev. G. S. Addison. CHARLES W. TURNER (captain M.N.), of Bristol, to EVELYN D. HARRIS, of Annadene Street, Hey Lane, Willaston, Wirral.

GR England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
First Name Evelyn Doris
Last Name Turner
Gender Female
Year 2000
Birth Year 1908
Birth Month 2
Birth Day 10
District Chester & Ellesmere Port
County Cheshire
Country England
Volume
Event Quarter 3
District Number 3401C
Page
Line Number
Entry Number 210

Probably this is Ernest’s registration,

GR England & Wales births 1837-2006
First Name Ernest John R
Last Name Harris
Birth Year 1899
Gender Male
Mother's Maiden Name Hall
Year 1899
Country England
County Worcestershire
Event Quarter 4
District Upton on Severn
District Number
Volume 6C
Page 316
Entry Number
Line Number 370

Ancestry 1939 Register, 56 Acreville Road, Bebington, Cheshire

HARRIS Ernest John Richard, Male, 20 Sept 1899, Married, Office Manager, Accountant, Building Contractors
HARRIS Bessie, Female, 12 May 1893, Married, Unpaid Domestic Duties
HARRIS Margaret Elizabeth Anne, 13 Aug 1929, Single, At School

(There are some additions to Margaret’s entry which I can’t interpret yet)

I’m beginning to wonder if the whole family decamped to Cheshire.

GR England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
First Name Jessie E
Last Name Harris
Gender Unknown
Year 1963
Birth Year 1876
Birth Month
Birth Day
District Wirral
County Cheshire
Country England
Volume 10A
Event Quarter 1
District Number
Page 1130
Line Number 53

First Name Henry R
Last Name Harris
Gender Male
Year 1943
Birth Year 1869
Birth Month
Birth Day
District Wirral
County Cheshire
Country England
Volume 8A
Event Quarter 1
District Number
Page 633
Line Number 109

Wow, thanks Mike, very helpful indeed.
The family did seem to move around a lot, so maybe no surprise if they went up North too. I appreciate you've probably alreay tried, but it would be great to see Henry & Jessie in the 1939 Register to help confirm what does look like their death records.

Thanks too for finding Ernest's full name.

FreeBMD confirms the 1939 Register record;

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1927
ARTHURSON Bessie HARRIS Liverpool 8b 145
Harris Ernest J R Arthurson Liverpool 8b 145

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1961
HARRIS Ernest J R 61 Wirral 10a 1019

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Sep 1929
Harris Margaret E A Arthurson Wirral 8a 568

Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page
Deaths Sep 1969
HARRIS Bessie 12My1893 Wirral 10a 1723

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Jun 1893
Arthurson Bessie Toxteth Park 8b 234

FamilySearch has;

1901 Wood Lane, Halewood, Lancashire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John A Arthurson Head M 44 BREWER'S ENGINEER'S MANAGER. Liverpool, Lancashire
Margaret Arthurson Wife F 45 Blackburn, Lancashire
Annie Arthurson Daughter F 18 PUPIL TEACHER (PUB ELEM). Liverpool, Lancashire
Cicely Arthurson Daughter F 16 Liverpool, Lancashire
Grace Arthurson Daughter F 14 Liverpool, Lancashire
Ernest Arthurson Son M 12 Liverpool, Lancashire
Bessie Arthurson Daughter F 7 Liverpool, Lancashire

1911 Ellerslie, Halewood, Lancashire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John A Arthurson Head M 54 MANAGER COTTON BROKERS. L'pool, Lancashire
Margaret Arthurson Wife F 55 Lancashrie Blackburn, Lancashire
Annie Arthurson Daughter F 28 ASSISTANT ELEMENTARY MISTRESS, L'POOL EDUCATION AUTHORITY. Liverpool, Lancashire
Cicely Arthurson Daughter F 26 Liverpool, Lancashire
Ernest Arthurson Son M 22 ASSISTANT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL MASTER, L'POOL EDUCATION AUTHORITY. Liverpool, Lancashire
Bessie Arthurson Daughter F 17 TYPIST,COMMISSION AGENTS. Liverpool, Lancashire

NB While trying to find info abt Ellerslie Halewood I found this detailed FH page for Ernest Arthurson.
https://www.bayanne.info/Shetland/getperson.php?personID=I430239&tree=ID1

---

Possible marriage for Margaret;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1954
Harris Margaret E A Richmond Wirral 10a 1750
RICHMOND Anthony H HARRIS Wirral 10a 1750

And their likely offspring, who I won't enlarge upon on this forum;

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

Births Jun 1956
Richmond Stephen T Harris Wirral 10a 928

Births Mar 1958
RICHMOND Grace E HARRIS Wirral 10a 1005

----------

Revisiting Ernest's siblings, but specifically searching the Cheshire area records, this appears to be brother Harry's marriage record before the couple moved to Australia as per Ladies' findings.

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1951
HARRIS Harry R WILLIAMS W.Cheshire 10a 1139
WILLIAMS Eva HARRIS W.Cheshire 10a 1139

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/west%20cheshire.html

I can’t yet see Henry and Jessie in the 1939 Register but these entries confirm that both Jessie and Olive Louise were in Cheshire.

National Probate Calendar 1930

HARRIS Olive Louise of 1 The Follies Hooton-road Willaston near Birkenhead Spinster died 20 November 1930 Administration Chester 19 December to Jessie Emma Harris (Wife of Henry Richard Harris). Effects £145 2s 11d.

National Probate Calendar 1963

HARRIS Jessie Emma of Annadene Street Hey Lane Willaston Cheshire widow died 23 February 1963 at Clatterbridge General Hospital Bebington Wirral Cheshire Administration Chester 10 May to Evelyn Doris Turner married woman. Effects £1177 9s.

Hi Mike
iirc you use Ancestry for 1939 Register ?

Using the FindMyPast free-search I can find the following which may be worth your following-up (sorry, don't have a full subscription).

1939 Register Transcription (Preview)

Harris Household Erith M.B., Kent, England
First name(s) Last name(s) Birth year
Jessie E Harris 1874
Henry Harris is also on this record.

However, when searching again for our particular Henry (ie born abt 1869), I cannot find him in the Erith records.... Harris appears to be quite a common name in Kent.
??

Hope this helps.

ps I wondered why Olive sadly died aged just 30, but cannot find any mention in the BNA old papers site.

??

Hi Jeff,

Ancestry 1939 Register, 104 Hengist Road, Erith

Harris, Henry, Male, 24th July 1875, Married, Bread Baker and Cake Maker
Harris, Jessie E, Female, 21st April, 1874, Married, Unpaid Domestic Duties

So, whilst Jessie looks about right Henry unfortunately doesn’t.

Hi MIke,
fair enough, thanks for trying anyway. I remembered a while back we found someone on the 1939 via FMP, who Ancestry struggled to find. Least I think we did, haha.
Cheers sir !