Ann PEWTNER b. 1801

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If anyone is still looking into this thread, I'm interested in Ann Pewtner b. 1801 because I believe she married Edward Watkins b. 1788 on 16 Nov 1820 and had (at least) Ann Watkins b. 1820, who married Thomas Wilce b. 1811 on 18 Dec 1836 and had my great great grandfather John Watkins Wilce b. 1841, who emigrated to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US, in 1867. If anyone has more information about Anne Pewtner, Edward Watkins, Ann Watkins, Thomas Wilce or John Watkins Wilce, I'd be grateful to hear of it. Thanks!

Bekah

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I believe she married Edward Watkins b. 1788 on 16 Nov 1820

Bekah

These people are in my family tree, take a look at a hand written family tree and notes compiled by Frank C Watkins.

WATKINS Ruardean - Family Tree and Notes
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=17230#p17331

Frank lists 10 childred of Edward and Ann but does not have Ann WATKINS born 1820. I am unable to find a baptism record for Ann WATKINS with the parents of Edward and Ann. Could you supply us with any further details you have on Ann WATKINS which may help to connect it all together.

Entry_Number: 805
Year: 1820
Month: Nov
Day: 16
Grooms_Surname: WATKINS
Grooms_Forenames: Edward
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Ruardean
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: PEWTNER
Brides_Forenames: Anne
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Ruardean
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Licence
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Abigail Philpot
Witness_2: Esaias Pewtner
Other_Witnesses: Esaias Pewtner
Officiating_Minister: T D Fosbrooke Min[iste]r
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: With parents consent
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/9
Page_Number: 10
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean

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David

I have replied to a thread that is linked to this item, but for some reason, that reply has not brought the associated thread to the fore, so I have repeated my reply here.

Jim

Hi David & Slowhands

Following the recent posting Ann Pewtner b. 1801 has led me back to this thread, which I have followed as there were people mentioned who are in my Family Tree.

In particular I was interested in the Elizabeth Meek 1712 mentioned, with a possible baptism 25 Jan 1712 to Jeremiah Meek & Ann.

I have a Jeremiah (Jeremy) Meek baptised 17th August 1679 - note this is not on the F o D web site, but I can supply an image of the BT page if you wish. I believe Jeremiah Meek married Ann Rudge 30 Nov 1704 and I further believe this is the parents of Elizabeth Meek baptised 1712.

Jermiah was the son of John Meek & Elinor, who have featured on a number of threads in this forum.

I would be interested in your opinion as If I am right David it makes you my 9th cousin !!

Jim

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I have replied to a thread that is linked to this item, but for some reason, that reply has not brought the associated thread to the fore

When you are viewing the forum in the index mode, if you click on the Order option it will change between date or last reply order. This means that the at the top of the page the latest thread that was started will display, or the thread with the latest reply will display and they will then run down the page in which ever option you have choosen.

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Entry_Number: 55
Year: 1836
Month: Dec
Day: 18
Grooms_Surname: WILCE
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age: [not
Groom_Condition: [not stated]
Grooms_Occupation: [not stated]
Grooms_Residence: of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Surname: WATKINS
Brides_Forenames: Ann
Brides_Age: [not
Brides_Condition: [not stated]
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated]
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Mark of George Harper
Witness_2: Mark of Hester Harper
Other_Witnesses: Tho[ma]s Lewis
Officiating_Minister: John Hardy Perpetual Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: both of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St Briavels
Notes: transd [illegible initials] written in left margin
Register_Reference: AG52/5
Page_Number: 19
Parish_Chapel: Lea

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I posted the message in the original Pewtner thread, so jumping in here again!
This is what I have on Ann, husband and descendants - haven't looked at it lately but think it's OK as far as it goes. Have Pewtner forebears, Esaias 1773's father born Bristol, and his father born Exeter, both also called Esaias. Can provide more info on these if required?

Joss

First Generation

1. Ann PEWTNER, daughter of Esaias PEWTNER (1773?-1842) and Susannah GARDINER (1770?-1836), was born in 1801 (approx.) in Whitchurch, Herefordshire. She was christened on 22 February 1801 in Whitchurch. Checked Transcript. Ann married Edward WATKINS on 16 November 1820 in Ruardean, Gloucestershire. FoD site transcripts. Her name given as Anne. Married by licence with parents consent. Both sign. 2 witnesses Esaias Pewtner, presume father (1773) and brother, the Lydney agent. P275 IN 1/9 p10. Ann died.

1841 CENSUS: HO 107/365/10 Entry at Condell, Ruardean aged 40 years, born in county. Living with husband, 4 sons and 4 daughters..

1851 CENSUS: Entry 66 Ruardean, Glocs. Aged 50 years, wife of head of household. Living with husband, four daughters and two sons. Place of birth stated as Whitchurch. HO/107/1976 Fol 344, page 25.

1861 CENSUS: Entry 69 Ruardean. Described as wife, married, aged 61 years, no occupation, born at Ruardean, Glocs. With husband, one daughter and one son. RG9/1814 Fol.54.

Edward WATKINS, son of Philip WATKINS (1746?-1810) and Martha HADDOCK (1752?-), was born in 1788 (approx.) in Ruardean. He was christened on 14 April 1788 in Ruardean. He was a Shoemaker. He died.

1841 Census
HO107/365/10 Folio 5 p5 Ruardean, Candell
WATKINS
Edward 50 a shoemaker Y
Ann 50 Y
Edward 19 Y
Eliza 15 Y
Susannah 13 Y
William 10 Y
Martha Ann 8 Y
Emma 6 Y
Charles 3 Y
Thomas 8m Y.

Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER had the following children:

+2 Edward WATKINS (1822?- )
+3 Eliza WATKINS (1826?- )
+4 Susannah WATKINS (1827?- )
+5 William WATKINS (1831?- )
+6 Martha Ann WATKINS (1833?- )
+7 Emma WATKINS (1835?- )
+8 Charles WATKINS (1838?- )
+9 Thomas WATKINS (1840?- )
+10 Elizabeth WATKINS (1845?- )

Second Generation

2. Edward WATKINS, son of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1822 (approx.) in Ruardean, Gloucestershire.

3. Eliza WATKINS, daughter of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1826 (approx.) in Ruardean.

4. Susannah WATKINS, daughter of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1827 (approx.) in Ruardean. She was baptised on 28 October 1827 in Ruardean.

FOD - Year 1827 Month Oct Day 28
Parents Surname WATKINS
Child Forename(s) Susannah
Father's Forename(s) Edward
Mother's Forename(s) Ann
Place of Residence Ruerdean [Ruardean]
Occupation Shoemaker
Officiating Minister T. D. Fosbroke Min[iste]r
Register Reference P275 IN 1/7 Page No 59. Susannah married John HIATT on 28 September 1851 in Ruardean.

FOD - Year 1851 Month Sep Day 28
Groom Surname HYETT Groom Forename(s) John
Groom Age at Marriage Of Full Age
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession Labourer
Groom Residence Ruardean
Groom Father's Surname Hyett
Groom Father's Forename(s) James
Groom Father's Rank or Profession Labourer
Bride Surname WATKINS
Bride Forename(s) Susanna
Bride Age at Marriage Of Full Age
Bride Condition Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession
Bride Residence Ruardean
Bride Father's Surname Watkins
Bride Father's Forename(s) Edward
Bride Father's Rank or Profession Shoemaker
Licence or Banns Banns
Signature or Mark He signs she marks
Witness 1 Edward Watkins
Witness 2 Lydia Ireland
Officiating Minister William Penfold
Event type Marriage
Transcriber's Notes The groom signed HIATT
Register Reference P275 IN 1/10 Page No 39
Parish/Chapel Ruardean.

John HIATT was born in 1828 (approx.). He was baptised.

FOD possibles, both have father James - Year 1829 Month Sep Day 6
Parents Surname HYATT
Child Forename(s) John
Father's Forename(s) James
Mother's Forename(s) Sophia
Officiating Minister John Horlick
Register Reference D6026 8/1 Page No 15
Parish/Chapel Mitcheldean Congregational

or could be Year 1829 Month Feb Day 7
Parents Surname HYETT
Child Forename(s) John
Father's Forename(s) James
Mother's Forename(s) Esther
Place of Residence Baldwyns Oak
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister J Archibald
Memoranda Privately baptized
Register Reference P225 IN1/5 Page No 2
Parish/Chapel Newent. John was a Labourer.

5. William WATKINS, son of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1831 (approx.) in Ruardean.

6. Martha Ann WATKINS, daughter of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1833 (approx.) in Ruardean. She married William MEEK on 11 October 1853 in Gloucester, Glo, Eng. The address was: St Nicholas.

William MEEK was born on 4 January 1832 in Ruardean.

7. Emma WATKINS, daughter of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1835 (approx.) in Ruardean.

8. Charles WATKINS, son of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1838 (approx.) in Ruardean.

9. Thomas WATKINS, son of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1840 (approx.) in Ruardean.

10. Elizabeth WATKINS, daughter of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER, was born in 1845 (approx.).

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Me again - sorry forgot to say that I don't have and can't find Ann 1820 either.

Joss

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I tried replying earlier, and it didn't show up (tried viewing in different orders, still no luck), so I'll try to remember what I had.

Ann Watkins has been on my family tree since my father and aunt were doing research several decades ago, and it makes sense, as my gggrandfather John Watkins WILCE (1841) seems to have been named after her maiden name. I have no concrete evidence, though.

I did find an LDS FamilySearch Pedigree Resource File submitted by Beverly Neal that lists his parents as Thomas WILCE and Ann WATKINS here: http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsea... . Does the christening record no. Hr97an mean anything to anyone? That record links Thomas and Anne to the wedding record posted here in St. John Chapel in Lea 18 Dec 1836, which has gaps and the obvious problem that it lists both parties as being from the extraparochial part of the Hundred of St. Briavels, whereas I have a baptism record of Thomas being from Ruardean and (at least if Anne is daughter of Edward WATKINS and Anne PEWTNER, although I admit her hypothetical birth year of 1820 is unlikely if they married in Nov. of that year) Ann Watkins as well.

Help!

Bekah

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Just had a quick nose around Ancestry - are any/all of these your Ann/Thomas? Not sure if same person or not as variant ages. Of course it doesn't help with Ann's parents/maiden name since she married pre-census. I agree that on the John Watkins Wilce 1841 evidence, her maiden name is likely to be Watkins, though he fails to appear on censuses below with Ann and Thomas. However, if you send off for JWW's birth certificate, it will give her maiden name. Have to say I'm not convinced by Pewtner connection at present, but I don't think that an 1820 birth is necessarily a problem - might have been a shotgun wedding!

Joss

Births Sep 1841 Wilce John Watkins Ross 26 201

1861 Ann Wilce, Age: 31, Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Wife, Spouse's Name: Thomas, Where born: Coleford, Gloucestershire
Civil Parish: Newland Town: Coleford
Household Members: Thomas Wilce 33, Ann Wilce 31, Thomas Wilce 13,
Sarah Wilce 9, Charles Wilce 6, John Wilce 7 Mo

1851 Ann Wilce, Age: 25, Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Wife, Spouse's Name: Thomas, Where born: Newland, Gloucestershire
Civil Parish: West Dean Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Gloucestershire Household Members:Thomas Wilce 27, Ann Wilce 25, Thomas Wilce 3,
Eliza Brown 19, John Little 29

1841 Ann Wilce, Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1820,
Where born: Gloucestershire, Civil Parish: Ruardean Hundred: St Briavells Household Members: Thos Wilce 25, Ann Wilce 21, Amey Wilce 1

Free BMD
Name: Ann Wilce
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Year of Registration: 1895
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 70
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 394

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I agree with joss that in searching through all the records there does not appear to be any evidence of Ann WATKINS (abt.1820) being the daughter of Edward and Ann WATKINS.

I had a look through the LDS FamilySearch Pedigree Resource File submitted by Beverly Neal, again there is no evidence of a link either, only that she claims Edward and Ann WATKINS are the parents. There is a postal address for Beverly Neal in Arizona so I think it would be worth contacting her to see how she has come to her conclusions.

She gives the source of the baptism Sep 1841 of John Watkins Wilce as

The Old Chapel
Cantilupe Road
Ross-on-Wye
Herefordshire
HR97AN

This is the address of the Ross Registration Office and HR97AN represents the post code (zip code). You should be able to get more details of the baptism from the Registration Office and also possibly order the birth certificate.

It may also be worth considering that when a surname is taken as a second forename, it is very often when a child is born illegitimate. The child has the surname of the mother and the child's second forename is the surname of the father.

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Thanks to you both, David and Joss. I've contacted the registration office in Ross-on-Wye and sent off a letter to Beverly in Arizona. Fingers crossed!

I also asked my grandmother earlier today if she remembered anything about her husband's grandfather, and although she didn't know about his parents, she did tell me a couple of stories about him. John Watkins Wilce was a stonemason in Milwaukee, with his handiwork all over the buildings downtown. One day, he was driving a wagon filled with stones when his horse was struck by lightning and killed. Apparently he was fine, but what are the odds? She also told me-- and I vaguely remembered this, but had forgotten to write it down the first time-- that his wife of many years, with whom he'd moved from Ruardean and who was the father of his four daughters (we're not sure of the number, because I've only been able to pinpoint three names), Elizabeth nee Grubb, died in 1884, and unable to take care of the girls and the house himself and keep working, he hired a housekeeper named Rosetta Marcy/Mary Woodworth, whose family had moved to Milwaukee from Cornwallis, Nova Scotia but whose progenitor, Walter Woodworth (1612-1685), had arrived in Plymouth, Massachusetts from Kent in the early 17th century. Three years later, John and Rosetta were married, and a year or so after that, his first and only son and my great grandfather, John Woodworth Wilce, was born. Or so the story goes.

Bekah

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Sorry Beckah, I've been away (trying to trace my Irish Anglo-Indians at the British Library - and you think the FOD is hard!). Great story! When you get the certificate, do let us know.

Joss

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Hi, all! I received from the GRO a copy of the record of marriage of Thomas Wilce to Ann Watkins ("both of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St. Briavels") that looks like it is the source of the transcription here in the FOD parish records, so nothing new, but the researcher was kind enough to send along some additional details that helped me put a few more things together:

"From the Registrar’s Index I found the main details of two siblings of the above John:

"Llangarren 1 Aug 1839 Birth of Amey daughter of Thomas & Ann Wilce [Is this considered to be outside the FOD?]
Ross 4 Nov 1843 Birth of Thomas son of Thomas & Ann Wilce

"I also found the following:

"Ross 15 March 1848 Death of Ann Wilce aged 30

"Whether this is your Ann I am not sure – she would have been about 18 when she married which is rather young but not impossible.

"The details of the 1851 census seem to indicate that Ann did die and that Thomas married again:

"1851 census for Ruardean
HO107/1976 Folio 348a
Ruardean
Thomas Wilce Head Mrd 37 Quarry man Born Ruardean
Charlotte “ Wife 23 “ “
Fanny “ Dtr 11 “ “
John “ Son 9 “ “
Thomas “ “ 7 “ “
Charlotte “ Dtr 1 “ “
Elizabeth “ “ 1 week (?) “ “
Ann Grindle Svnt Unm 18 “ English Bicknor

"There are the three children of Thomas & Ann, although Amey has become Fanny – this may be a transcription error. Unless this is a remarkable coincidence this proves that Thomas married again.

"I could not find a marriage for Thomas Wilce in the General Index of Marriages that matched up with Charlotte/Sarah/Elinor Lewis.

"There was a marriage in the June quarter of 1848 (Gloucester XI 416) and another in the March quarter of 1851 (Monmouth XXVI 97) but no sign of a Charlotte/Sarah/Elinor Lewis with the same reference number."

I did find this marriage, at least in the FreeBMD, which places it in Apr, May or Jun of 1848.

Then Pauline Williams helped me figure out more clues on this second marriage. In the 1841 census, the nextdoor neighbors of Thomas & Ann are the following:

Pound Thos. Wilce 25 Quarryman Y
Ann Do 21 Y
Amey Do 1 Y

Do William Lewis 53 Shopkeeper Y
Charlotte Do 45 Y
William Do 9 Y
Charlotte Do 11 Y
Thomas Do 7 Y
John Charles Do 4 Y

I believe this Charlotte Lewis, 11-year-old daughter (in 1841) of William Lewis, is the Charlotte Sarah Elinor Lewis who later married the widower Thomas Wilce (at age 18, half of Thomas' age of 36) and had daughters Charlotte Mary Ann, Sarah Elizabeth Lewis and Francis L. (Lewis?). At some point in conversation with my grandmother, I believe she referred to Thomas' second wife as "the evil stepmother who drove John to America." I'm sure that's at least exaggerated, but his father Thomas did die in Sep of 1856, and John did leave home for the first time, from Oxford (where the family had moved) to London, in 1860 (according to a cousin's research, recorded by my grandfather), and from there on the steamship The Queen from Liverpool to New York in 1867 (according to a New York Times clipping from 29 Apr 1867 sent to me by another cousin).

So that's more or less where I am right now! I don't know if this helps anyone else. If anyone knows more, please let me know! Thanks,

Bekah

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A few days ago I put the Will of John WATKINS on the website. In his Will he mentions Ann WILCE his grandaughter. Although, I can't seem to connect the information with this thread, it probably would be worth you having a look at the Will to see if you can glean anything from it.

WATKINS - Will of John Watkins Ruardean 1822.pdf

Wills & Adoms Section
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/resources/documents-and-articles

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He mentions Ann Watkins as his granddaughter, and Ann Wilce only as the wife of Richard Wilce. Do you think Ann Wilce and Ann Watkins are one and the same person, his granddaughter?

Bekah

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Not certain but my thoughts are that they are different people. Not able to find anything in the Parish Records that would help to confirm it.

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Bekah

Thanks for keeping us up to date with your research. So there is still nothing to indicate that Ann WATKINS is the daughter of Edward WATKINS and Ann PEWTNER. It does appear that a researcher along the line has wrongly made that assumption.

The information you received on the marriage of Thomas Wilce to Ann Watkins in 1836 at Lea would be a copy of the parish register and the same information as what we have on the website. It was not until a year later in July 1837 that civil registrations came in to effect which if the marriage occurred after that date you may have been able to obtain a marriage certificate which would probably have listed the bride and grooms fathers names.

I have a baptism record of Thomas being from Ruardean and (at least if Anne is
daughter of Edward WATKINS and Anne PEWTNER, although I admit her hypothetical
birth year of 1820 is unlikely if they married in Nov. of that year) Ann Watkins as well.

There does seem to be a lot of information you have gathered from other researchers that does not add up. I would suggest that you start a new thread with details of the family that you know to be factual and not hearsay as at present we may not be going in the right direction.

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Thanks for reminding me of my original question. You're right, it seems less and less likely that Ann Watkins was born to Edward Watkins and Anne Pewtner in 1820. Since my earlier posts, I've become more convinced that she was in fact the daughter of John Watkins and Mary Vaughan, bp. 16 Jul 1817, which would make her 19 at the time of her marriage to Thomas Wilce at the end of 1836. I found this baptism in the parish records here on FOD:

Record_ID: 56688
Entry_Number: 213
Year: 1817
Month: Jul
Day: 16
Parents_Surname: WATKINS
Child_Forenames: Ann (Mary)
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruerdean [Ruardean]
Occupation: Taylor
Officiating_Minister: T. D. Fosbrooke Min[iste]r
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: daughter of: This correction [to childs Christian name] was made by me T.D.Fosbrooke Min[iste]r
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 27
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: W325

Not quite 9 months earlier, there is a parish record of the marriage of John Watkins to Mary Vaughan:

Record_ID: 16496
Entry_Number: 793
Year: 1816
Month: Nov
Day: 14
Grooms_Surname: WATKINS
Grooms_Forenames: John
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Residence: Ruardean
Brides_Surname: VAUGHAN
Brides_Forenames: Mary
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Residence: Ruardean
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Joseph Evans
Witness_2: Joseph Harper
Officiating_Minister: T D Fosbrooke Min[iste]r
Event: Marriage
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/9
Page_Number: 6
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex_Groom: W325
Soundex_Bride: V250

Mary Court Vaughan was the base daughter of Esther Vaughan, bp. 10 Dec 1799 according to a record here on FOD. John Watkins was the son of John Watkins and Margaret Walden (m. 31 Dec 1789), bp. 22 Dec 1793, also according to a parish record here.

Does this seem right?

Bekah

Contined in new thread --> http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=20081

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Ann PEWTNER b. 1801 (General)

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Thomas WILCE and Ann WATKINS marriage 1836