My great great grandmother was an Amelia Matthews born in Lydbrook about 1858. The only A M I have found was the daughter of William and Elizabeth Matthews (nee Jones). My Amelia married a Charles Henry Nelmes (also known as Henry), but I can find no record of their marriage. The family story is that they eloped to Gretna Green in the late 1870s. They lived in Cumberland where several of their children were born including my great grandather William Henry Nelmes, and eventually settled in North Yorkshire on the Castle Howard estate.

I recently found an entry in the Lydbrook parish records of a marriage of Amelia Nelmes to a Charles Spencer in November 1875. Could this be my Amelia Matthews as I have not found records of any other around this time? I would appreciate any help to try to solve this mystery

Hi have checked Scotland marriages for Amelia Matthews marrying any Nelmes 1870-1885 but nothing there -sorry.

Record_ID: 9876
Entry_Number: 100
Year: 1875
Month: Nov
Day: 15
Grooms_Surname: SPENCER
Grooms_Forenames: Charles
Grooms_Age: 22
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Lydbrook
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: SPENCER
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: MATTHEWS
Brides_Forenames: Amelia
Brides_Age: 18
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lydbrook
Brides_Fathers_Surname: MATTHEWS
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: William
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Joseph Jordan
Witness_2: Catherine Ellen [illegible]
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Henry T Hoitt
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P208 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 50
Parish_Chapel: Lydbrook

I have not been able to find this couple in the 1881 Census. Ancestry does have two records, one each for Charles Spencer and Amelia Spencer on New York passenger lists (1820-1957). I do not have access to these records.

First name Last name Occupation Age Sex Arrived Ship Origin (Port) Origin (Ctry) Origin (Prov) Origin (Town)
AMELIA SPENCER UNKNOWN 36 F 22 May 1849 PLYMOUTH ROCK LIVERPOOL GREAT BRITAIN ENGLAND

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

1901
Henry Nelmes abt 1855 Feroster, Gloucestershire, England Head Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Amelia Nelmes abt 1863 Lydbroock, Gloucestershire, England Wife Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Wallace Nelmes abt 1883 Redmain, Cumberland, England Son Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Mary Nelmes abt 1888 Lanercost, Cumberland, England Daughter Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Arthur Nelmes abt 1890 Lanercost, Cumberland, England Son Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Gertrude Nelmes abt 1893 Lanercost, Cumberland, England Daughter Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Cecelia Nelmes H abt 1896 Coneythorpe, Yorkshire, England Daughter Ganthorpe, Yorkshire
Gilbert Nelmes abt 1897 Coneythorpe, Yorkshire, England Son Ganthorpe, Yorkshire

1891
Henry Helmes abt 1859 Froster, Gloucestershire, England Head Burtholme, Cumberland
Amelia Helmes abt 1861 Lydlesork, Gloucestershire, England Wife Burtholme, Cumberland
William Helmes abt 1879 Lydlesork, Gloucestershire, England Son Burtholme, Cumberland
James A Helmes abt 1881 Blinderake, Cumberland, England Son Burtholme, Cumberland
Wallace Helmes abt 1883 Redmour, Cumberland, England Son Burtholme, Cumberland
Elizabeth A Helmes abt 1885 Lanercost, Cumberland, England Daughter Burtholme, Cumberland
Mary J Helmes abt 1887 Lanercost, Cumberland, England Daughter Burtholme, Cumberland
Robert A Helmes abt 1889 Lanercost, Cumberland, England Son Burtholme, Cumberland

1881
Henry Belmes abt 1856 Gloucestershire, England Head Allhallows, Cumberland
Amelia Belmes abt 1858 Gloucestershire, England Wife Allhallows, Cumberland
William H. Belmes abt 1877 Gloucestershire, England Son Allhallows, Cumberland
James A. Belmes abt 1879 Blind Crake, Cumberland, England Son Allhallows, Cumberland

Moves away from Gloucestershire and takes on Mother Maiden name !

Who is
William H. Belmes (NELMES) abt 1877 Gloucestershire ?

probable

Year: 1878
Month: Feb
Day: 26
Parents_Surname: SPENCER
Child_Forenames: William Henry
Fathers_Forenames: Charles
Mothers_Forenames: Amelia
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Astonbridge
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: John Evans
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: P
Notes: Entry No. 134
Register_Reference: D2598 3/4
Page_Number: 0
Parish_Chapel: East Dean Methodist Circuit

Also
1871 - Charles and Henry both from FROCESTER ??? - CHARLES HENRY NELMES SPENCER
Charles Spencer abt 1855 Froster, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Newland, Gloucestershire

1861
Henry Spencer abt 1824 Coaley, Gloucestershire, England Head Frocester, Gloucestershire
Caroline Spencer abt 1823 Cambridgeshire, Gloucestershire, England Wife Frocester, Gloucestershire
Andrew Spencer abt 1849 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Son Frocester, Gloucestershire
Marina Spencer abt 1851 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Frocester, Gloucestershire
Charles Spencerabt 1853 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Son Frocester, Gloucestershire
Eliza Spencer abt 1858 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Frocester, Gloucestershire
Alfred J Spencer abt 1860 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Son Frocester, Gloucestershire
Alfred Spencer abt 1836 Coaley, Gloucestershire, England Nephew Frocester, Gloucestershire

Name: Caroline Nelms
Name: Henry Spencer
Year of Registration: 1846
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Dursley
County: Gloucestershire, Wiltshire
Volume: 11
Page: 391

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

It would appear that Charles Henry SPENCER and Charles Henry NELMES are one and the same.

This is his family in 1861:
Henry Spencer abt 1824 Coaley, Gloucestershire, England Head Frocester, Gloucestershire
Alfred Spencer abt 1836 Coaley, Gloucestershire, England Nephew Frocester, Gloucestershire
Andrew Spencer abt 1849 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Son Frocester, Gloucestershire
Marina Spencer abt 1851 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Frocester, Gloucestershire
Charles Spencer abt 1853 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Son Frocester, Gloucestershire
Eliza Spencer abt 1858 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Frocester, Gloucestershire
Alfred J Spencer abt 1860 Frocester, Gloucestershire, England Son Frocester, Gloucestershire

and 1851:
Piece Folio SchNo Town Surname Forename Relatn Marr Age Occupation County Place
1963 0300 040 Frocester SPENCOR Henery HD M 27 Farm Labourer GLS Coaley
1963 0300 040 Frocester SPENCOR Caroline WI M 27 - GLS Cam
1963 0300 040 Frocester SPENCOR William SO - 5 Scholar GLS Cam
1963 0300 040 Frocester SPENCOR Elizabeth DA - 3 - GLS Frocester
1963 0300 040 Frocester SPENCOR Andrew SO - 1 - GLS Frocester

and this is the marriage of his parents:

Marriages Jun 1846
Nelms Caroline Dursley 11 391
Spencer Henry Dursley 11 391

So he has adopted his mother's maiden name. Question is Why?

Mike

Thanks for your quick response. I too have checked Scottish and Gretna Green records with no results. However the family story may not be true, Charles Spencer who married Amelia Matthews may have changed his name to Nelmes after the marriage, the mystery now is why? Cheers ChrisP

Hi Paul thanks for your response to my query. The record you posted was the one that put doubt in my head as to whether I had found the right Amelia Matthews. However suggestions made by other forum members lead me to conclude that I was correct and that Amelia's husband changed his name for some reason. I don't have access to passenger lists so cannot check your other information but thanks anyway. ChrisP

Hello slowhands, you have managed to solve something that has been niggling me since I started my research about 4 yrs ago i.e. why I could not find the Nelmes family in the 1891 and 1881 censuses. They are my family, all the Helmes and the Belmes! I knew they were in Cumberland as I had birth certificats for 2 of their children. I could not find the bc for William Henry Nelmes who was my great grandfather, but believed from the 1901 census that he was born in Cumberland. The dates fit as does the possible baptism of W H Spencer. The second child, James Albert Nelmes was born in November 1879. It seems a logical conclusion from all the info I now have, that perhaps Charles Henry Spencer did adopt his mother's maiden name. Why remains a mystery as does the reason for the move to Cumberland. Something must have happened, do you know of any local newspapers that might have records of that time? Hope I haven't bored you , many thanks, ChrisP

Hi Mike, many thanks for your response, your information backed up that sent by slowhands and was very useful. All I need to do now is look for proof that Charles Spencer and Charles Nelmes are the same person. That may prove difficult and I may never know, even all all the evidence points to this. Cheers ChrisP