READs of Ruardean Woodside

George Read (b.1785-1846) and Ann Brown (b.1792-1853) had three children, Richard, George and Elizabeth. I noticed from the Parish Records that Elizabeth and George were baptised on the same day - 10th February 1828. Is it safe to presume that these two were twins, i.e when the baptismal records were transcribed can it be assumed that they were taken from the original records? Advice much appreciated !

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No - all you can say is that the baptisms occured on the same day !!

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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That's a shame. I thought I might have uncovered another interesting titbit about this family! Thank you Slowhands for your prompt reply:)

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Similar occurrence: William Jordan and Martha (Meredith) had 5 children baptised on same day, 28 Oct 1978. Certainly weren't quintuplets! - and three of them were probably re-baptisms. Done prior to emigration to NZ. As Slowhands says, all a baptism record shows is that they were baptised on that date. Unless an age or date of birth is recorded, they could be of any age.

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It is a quite common practise to baptise more than one child on the same day, even if they are born a few years apart. However, my understanding is that George & Elizabeth Read were twins. Their brother Richard was born 1814 in Dudley Staffs, so you will not find him in the Forest of Dean records.

1861 Census East Dean RG 9 1755 10
George Read 33 Coal Miner East Dean
Jane 33 East Dean
Elizabeth 11 East Dean
Jane 6 East Dean
Anne 5 East Dean
Hannah East Dean
John tingle wifes brother 24 CM East Dean

1871 Census East Dean
George Read 44 Miner East Dean
Jane 43 East Dean
Ann 15 East Dean
Hannah 13 East Dean
Helen 10 East Dean
Martha 6 East Dean
George 3 East Dean
Mary 1 East Dean

Elizabeth married James Wilce on 3 Aug 1839, 2 children George and Caroline Ann. He remarried 11 May 1851 to Charlotte Nelmes :

1861 Census East Dean
James Wilce 42 Quarry man Ruardean
Charlotte 27 East Dean
Richard 20 CM East Dean
George 18 CM East Dean
Caroline 14 East Dean
Joseph 8 East Dean
Elizabeth 2 East Dean

Richard Married Fanny Dubberly. Neither are related to me, but I have relations from 7 of their descendants. The main one being William Read who married Selina Marfell. This pairing have featured in many postings which can be accessed using "Search" :

1851 Census East Dean
READ Richard 37 Coal Miner Dudley Staffs
Fanny 39 East Dean
William 12 Coal Miner East Dean
John 11 East Dean
Mary Ann 10 East Dean
Henry 8 Scholar East Dean
Richard 5 Scholar East Dean
Eliza 3 Scholar East Dean
George 1 East Dean

1861 Census East Dean Rg9 1755 10
Richard Read 47 Coal Miner
Fanny 49 East Dean
John 21 Coal Miner East Dean
Henry 18 Coal Miner East Dean
Richard 15 Coal Miner East Dean
Eliza 12 East Dean
George 10 East Dean
Elizabeth 8 East Dean
James 6 East Dean

1871 Census East Dean 2598/40/41
Richard Read 57 Miner Staffordshire
Fanny 59 East Dean
John 30 Miner East Dean
Henry 26 Miner East Dean
James 16 Miner East Dean

Jim Ashton

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1841 Census, Dean Forest, Ross, District 17, Page 3,
Hundred of St Briavels

George READ, age 55 Collier Y
Ann - 50 - N
George 12 - Y
(no Elizabeth in this household)

next door

Richard READ - age 25 - N
Fanny - 25 Y
William - 2
John - 18 months
Ann - 5 months

On the next page Page 4 -

which raises a question? Elizabeth READ married James WILCE in 1839 she would have been 11 years old - if she was George's twin.....

James WILCE - 20 Quarryman Y
Elizabeth WILCE - 19 Y ........c 1822
Richard - 10 months Y (assume Richard age 20 1861 Census with James & Charlotte WILCE)

(A) James WILCE married Elizabeth REED or BROWN : 3 August 1839, Walford, Hereford

There is an Elizabeth WILCE buried in Ruardean 27 April 1850 age 28 years c1822

1851 Census, East Dean, (Ancestry list them as WILER)

household above (Aston Bridge) then the WILCE's address: Pludds ??

James WILCE - Head (Widw) - 33 - Quarryman, Ruardean
Richard WILCE - 11 - Ruardean, Woodside
George - 8 - ditto
Caroline - 5 - ditto
Charlotte NELMES - Servant - age 19 - Housekeeper - born ditto

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Thanks.

Isn't it amazing how you sometimes miss the obvious !!

Rechecking the marriage, Elizabeth is shown as 21 - i.e born 1818.

Transcript Details

Record_ID: 57038
Entry_Number: 31
Year: 1839
Month: Aug
Day: 3
Grooms_Surname: WILCE
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: 21
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Stone cutter
Grooms_Residence: Walford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Wilce
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Stone cutter
Brides_Surname: REED (ALIAS) BROWN
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Woodside
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Reed (Brown)
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Joseph Terrett
Witness_2: Mark of Caroline Wilce
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: T.D. Fosbroke Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes: Bride signed Elizabeth Reed Brown
Register_Reference: AO19/11
Page_Number: 16
Parish_Chapel: Walford
Soundex_Groom: W420
Soundex_Bride: R342

You will note that she is shown as (Alias) Brown. You may be aware that due to her mother being Ann Brown, the name Brown and Brown Read appears in a number of instances in subsequent generations.

Jim Ashton

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Easy to miss obvious things, as Jim says. 1851 census:

James WILCE - Head (Widw) - 33 - Quarryman, Ruardean
Richard WILCE - 11 - Ruardean, Woodside
George - 8 - ditto
Caroline - 5 - ditto
Charlotte NELMES - Servant - age 19 - Housekeeper - born ditto

James goes on to marry his housekeeper, Charlotte Nelmes.

Son Lewis marries Rhoda Jane Marfell, (one of yours, Jim), producing at least 8 miniWilces. Other sons Joseph and James Wilce emigrate to Pensylvania.

Bob Jenkins

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Thanks Bob

Charlotte Nelmes was the daughter of Moses Nelmes 1805/1861 & Hannah Meek 1913, so she is related to me via the Meeks - 4th cousin 4 times removed. Charlotte had 5 siblings including George Nelmes 1832/1908 who married Esther Mansell 1834. They had 2 children including son Frederick 1868 who married my 1st cousin 3 times removed Laura Emily Marfell born 1st April 1873.

I knew that Joseph William Wilce had emigrated to USA. Before doing so he married Lydia Brain my 1st cousin 3 times removed, daughter of Simeon Brain 1819/1873 & Ann Marfell 1824. Joseph died 1st June 1926 Carbondale, Lackawana Co., PA. USA. Lydia died 25 May 1930 also Carbondale, Lackawana Co., PA. USA.

I hadn't been aware that James had also emigrated.

There was also a "servant" connection involved with the marriage between Lewis Wilce and Rhoda Marfell:

1891 Census East Dean
Timothy Wilce 38 Grocer & Draper Ruardean
Fanny Jane Liddington, Wiltshire
Fanny Evelyn 12 Cinderford
Ethel Eliza 10 Cinderford
Hartley Miles 8 Cinderford
Florence Ann 6 Cinderford
Ida Emily 4 Cinderford
Herbert Hartley 1 Cinderford
Florence Bessie Morgan asst 21 Drapers Asst Cinderford
George Wallace Wilce apprentice 14 Grocers Apprentice Ruardean
Rhoda Jane Marfell servant 21 General Servant Donestic East Dean

The Timothy Wilce in question was the son of Miles Wilce 1805 & Eliza. Miles Wilce being the son of John Wilce 1765 & my Great Great Great Great Aunt Ann Marfell 1771. Miles Wilce's sister Abia married my 1st cousin 4 times removed Cornelius Marfell 1806/1888.....................and so it goes on !!

Jim Ashton

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Seems he was Herbert Stanley, bn 19 Nov 1889, bp 16 Mar 1890 Cinderford St J. He had an interesting syphilitic scar......and occasional discharges from his forehead!!! Thank goodness for those really confidential Army records.

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1891 [WILCE] High St Cinderford
Timothy Wilie abt 1853 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire Draper
Fanny Davie Wilie abt 1851 Teddington, Wiltshire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Fanny Evelyn Wilie abt 1879 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Ethel Eliza Wilie abt 1881 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hartley Miles Wilie abt 1883 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Florence Ann Wilie abt 1885 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Ida Emily Wilie abt 1887 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Herbert Hartley Wilie abt 1890 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

1911 Lower High Street, Cinderford, Glos
Timothy Wilce 57
Fanny Wilce 62
Harley Wilce 28 Baker
Herbert Wilce 21

WILCE Harley
JONES Hazel Jeannette
Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office
1916 26 14

possible off spring:-

Lawrence H Wilce Oct-Nov-Dec 1916 Monmouth Glamorganshire

Ethel F Wilce Oct-Nov-Dec 1917 Monmouth Glamorganshire

Hrley M Wilce Jul-Aug-Sep 1920 Westbury S Shropshire

Maurice J Wilce Jul-Aug-Sep 1922 Westbury S Shropshire

Robert F Wilce Oct-Nov-Dec 1923 Westbury S Shropshire

Maurice L Wilce Jan-Feb-Mar 1924 Merthyr Tydfil Monmouthshire

Iris B Wilce Jan-Feb-Mar 1926 Westbury S Shropshire

Sheila J Wilce Jul-Aug-Sep 1930 Westbury S Shropshire

Kathleen Wilce Jan-Feb-Mar 1932 Westbury S. Shropshire

Eileen Wilce Jul-Aug-Sep 1934 Wheatenhurst Shropshire

Name: Hazel J Wilce
Birth Date: abt 1891
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1965
Age at Death: 74
Registration district: Gloucester Rural
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 555

Name: Harley Miles Wilce
Birth Date: 11 Apr 1883
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1976
Age at Death: 92
Registration district: Stroud
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 22
Page: 2626

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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It could mean that they were not Church of England or R.C. originally.
In my family (not the FOD side) there is a family where three of the children were baptised on the same day, they were non-Conformists, either Methodist or Congregationalist (I would need to look it up to confirm which but I think it illustrates the point). It is usually C of E or R.C. faiths which baptise people at about 4-6 weeks. Many non-Conformists are baptised at a much older age, some at about a year some older than that. Please bear in mind that Baptists, for example, would baptise people as young adults not as babies and often baptised many people on one occasion, that is not the only form of Non-Conformists which did this. The way in which the baptism was done differed in that Baptists believed in total immersion. There's therefore the possiblity that they converted to and from other faiths or other branches of Christianity as some forms of baptism might not be recognised or accepted by the new Church/brand of Christianity or might not have insisted on baptism at the age in question.

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Blink and you miss it ! After Slowhands' advice that there could be multiple baptisms I went away to do some more research. Meanwhile, my question was answered and I have only just caught up... and discovered there is more to do!

For example it is evident that Elizabeth died before the 1851 Census but is she the same Elizabeth Wilce buried at Ruardean in 1850 who was 28 years? There has to be some doubt because if it is the same woman who married in 1838 she would have been nearer 32 in 1850. Of course, it may just be that no one knew how old she really was when she died and guessed her age at 28 - something similar happened when her father (George Read) died in 1846. He was shown as age 56 when in fact he was nearer 61!

I have a copy of George's Will and in a Codicil, Richard Wilce (Elizabeth's eldest son with James Wilce) is named as a beneficiary. Bearing in mind Richard was only about 6 years old at the time the Codicil was written, this bequest is intriguing to say the least. I am still in the process of transcribing this Will but I will post more details when I have completed it.

So far as rookancestrybest point is concerned, the Read's were Bible Christians, a non-conformist sect that arrived in the Forest around 1823. It may be that Elizabeth and her brother George were baptised as part of a larger group or as part of their 'conversion'.

Thank you everyone for your advice and help so far !

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