Please would some one be able to see if there is a baptism record for mary powell born 1877westdean, Parents Thomas &caroline .living at broadwell lane end ,coleford

thank you
FORGOT TO SAY I FOUND ALL SIBLINGS BAPTISED CHRISTCHURCH /CHAPEL

Hi

No I can't find a baptism either! As Thomas & Caroline baptised their children in batch's I suppose it is possible they missed Mary?

1871 Five Baptised
1874 Two Baptised
1888 Three Baptised

Children's Birth Registrations (mother' maiden name Chivers).

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/BirthSearch.aspx

Hi,
I'm unable to find a Baptism either, yet. However searching the GlosBMD site (which shows an awful lot of Mary Powells thro the years!), gave this birth registration that seems the best fit to me. Is this your Mary ?. Is the mother's maiden name correct ?. The site shows other Mary Powells born in the Forest around this time but they all have second and even third names as well as Mary.
If you've not used GlosBMD its a great site, very userfriendly, plus gives Registry Office marriages as well as Church PRs.

Birth Details

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
POWELL Mary POWELL POWELL CHIVERS 1876 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 33 257

Many if not most Coleford area events were registered thro Monmouth.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/SimpleSearch.aspx

How does this look ?.
The more info you can give then the better we can help you, thanks.

SNAP !

Hi again Chris, we seem to have very similar routines wrt answering this forum !
Cheers J

PS I cannot find a marriage for Thomas & Caroline on either this sites PRs or GlosBMD, to try and confirm her maiden name, did you see one perchance ?
Thanks.

this women who is my grandmother has been a nightmare first of all spent a couple of years looking for her as polly my mother always said her name was polly!! all dead before I was born so no one to ask info off really. anyway when I got my parents marriage certificate of course got dads fathers name hence a marriage cert for him find out her name is mary!! on the 1901 census her and her husband harry ryle Williams and their first son Arthur Charles are with Mary's parents coleford broadwell lane end, BUT!! she is down as NELDA!!!

the other thing is although caroline is their mother as you say baptised in batches!!
and on the census's I'm not competley sure I have the correct marriage for her and Thomas because looking at the records there is a caroline baggus but she I think married some one else any help with this would be very much appreciated.
kind regards

??

Marriages Sep 1859
Chivers Caroline Abergavenny 11a 136 <<<
Davies Sarah Abergavenny 11a 136
Gwynne William Abergavenny 11a 136
Powell Thomas Abergavenny 11a 136 <<<

First known child born 1861.

would abergaveny be to far do you think ?1st child 1861 very possible as 4 or 5 were baptised 1871

I have found a birth for john james powell 1861 Monmouth and that's the name of one of them from the first batch so what do you think can I say for sure caroline chiver I think so THANK YOU

If you click on the link I gave you it tells you when the children's births were registered.

Thomas was a Collier, and it wasn't uncommon for Forest Colliers to go to work in Welsh Pits, or vice-versa!

FANTASTIC!!!!!!! BRILLIANT I can't thank you enough

Thanks Chris, both date and place looks good to me too, sorry for my not spotting this one when I tried FreeBMD earlier. There's def no Thomas & Caroline marriage in GlosBMD.

From this site's PRs, is this our Caroline's burial, Doran ?
Do you know when/where Thomas was buried, I cannot tell from the many possibles in the PRs.

Record_ID: 4462
Entry_Number: 705
Year: 1914
Month: Mar
Day: 12
Surname: POWELL
Forenames: Caroline
Residence: Broadwell Lane End
Age_at_death: 75
Officiating_Minister: C Barnes vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/15
Page_No: 89
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: P400

So born abt 1840, so fits 1859 marriage nicely ....
However I cannot find a Caroline Chivers birth in Abergavenny c1840 on FreeBMD, altho plenty of other Chivers there, so ??.

DORAN, do you have any clues as to her age or home area eg marriage ?

I only have limited Census access, but can of course see the 1881. Is this our family ?.

"England and Wales Census, 1881"
Name: Caroline Powell
Age (Original): 40
Gender: Female
Birth Year: 1841
Birthplace: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Relationship to Head of Household: Wife
Marital Status: Married
Occupation:
Address: ?
Event Place: West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1342259
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 5225 / 44
Page Number: 22
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head Thomas Powell M 42 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Wife Caroline Powell F 40 Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Son James Powell M 20 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son John Powell M 14 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son William Powell M 12 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Daughter Julia Powell F 9 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Daughter Mary Powell F 6 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Daughter Kate Powell F 1 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England ????

This looks like the same family that you've traced, Mary b1875, then Caroline claims to be from Bristol area born abt 1841 (so fits above burial record).
From FreeBMD I can find this birth which COULD POSSIBLY be her, quite a few Caroline Chivers in that area in those times;

Surname Given Name District Volume Page
-------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1843
-------------------------------------------------------
Chivers Caroline Clutton 11 108

The district Clutton is in the county of Somerset; information about it can be found here http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/clutton.html

Clutton includes Radstock, which is in the Somerset coalfield, this forum's seen plenty of examples of Forest miners working there and viceversa, easy access via the old Severn Railway bridge etc. Hence perhaps Thomas was working there when he met Caroline ?. (again assuming this approach is the correct one ??)
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SOM/Radstock/index.html

Re your query earlier abt Forest miners working in Abergavenny, as Chris said this is common. My coalmining ancestors appear to originate from Lydbrook thro most of the 1800s, but for one Census they were living & mining in Aberdare, a little further away than Abergavenny. Many other Forest miners moved much farther for work, such as Durham or even America.

Finally, searching the other Census' as best I can, using the LDS / FamilySearch site as before, shows that Somerset has the highest % of Caroline CHIVERS b1800s by far for all England, abt 1/3.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Acaroli...

The 1861 Census gives,

West Dean

Thomas POWELL, Head, 26, Coal miner, born West Dean, Gloucester
Caroline, Wife, 23,(unclear, probably "miner's wife"), born ......hton, Somerset
James J, Son, 1 month, born West Dean, Gloucester

Unfortunately although Thomas and James are clearly born in West Dean the birthplace of Caroline is missing on the original document (apart from the Somerset). Long Ashton might be a possibility.

The following Census returns may be of help:

1841 Census
Midsomer Norton
Given Name Surname Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
Joseph Chivers 30 1811 Male Somerset England
Mary Chivers 25 1816 Female Somerset England
Mary Ann Chivers 5 1836 Female Somerset England
Caroline Chivers 3 1838 Female Somerset England

1851 Census
Midsomer Norton
House Number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth Place
139 Mary Chivers Head 38 1813 Female Kilmersdon, Somerset, England
139 Caroline Chivers Daughter 8 1843 Female Midsr Norton, Somerset, England
139 James Chivers Son 1 1850 Male Midsr Norton, Somerset, England
139 Elizabeth Goddard Lodger 58 1793 Female Embrow, Somerset, England

1861 Census
Midsomer Norton
Household Number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
168 Job Whittock Head 54 1807 Male Midsomer Norton Somerset England
168 Mary Whittock Wife 47 1814 Female Kilmersdon Somerset England
168 Caroline Chivers Daughter-in-law 18 1843 Female Midsomer Norton Somerset England
168 James Whittock Son 11 1850 Male Midsomer Norton Somerset England
168 William Whittock Son 8 1853 Male Midsomer Norton Somerset England
168 John Whittock Son 5 1856 Male Midsomer Norton Somerset England
168 Charles Whittock Son 5/12 1860 Male Midsomer Norton Somerset England

1901 Census
Broadwell Lane End
Household Number Name Relation to Head Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth Place
98 Caroline Powell Head 61 1840 Female Michan Norton, Somerset, England
98 Alfred Powell Son 17 1884 Male West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
98 Absolom Powell Boarder 22 1879 Male West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
98 Arthur Barrett Boarder 18 1883 Male Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
98 Frank Barrett Boarder 17 1884 Male Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
98 Harry Williams Visitor 27 1874 Male Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
98 Nelda Williams Visitor 24 1877 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
98 Charles Williams Visitor 2 1899 Male Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
98 Wm Powell Visitor 46 1855 Female West Dean, Gloucestershire, England

1911 Census:
Broadwell Lane End
Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country Address
Coraline Powell Head 1839 72 Female Widowed Somerset England Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos
Alfred Powell Son 1883 28 Male Married Collier (hewer) Cheltenham Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos
Phoebe Powell Wife 1886 25 Female Married Tredegar Monmouthshire Wales Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos
Phoebe Powell Granchildren 1904 7 Female Tredegar Monmouthshire Wales Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos
Gladys Powell Granchildren 1906 5 Female Tredegar Monmouthshire Wales Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos
William Powell Granchildren 1908 3 Male Coleford Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos
Coraline Powell Granchildren 1911 2/12 Female Coleford Broad Well Lane End Nr Coleford Glos

Caroline's father died between 1841 and 1851. This is a possible death registration:
Deaths Sep 1843
CHIVERS Joseph Clutton 11 73

and mother remarried:
Marriages Dec 1851
CHIVERS Mary Clutton 11 135
Whittock Job Clutton 11 135

Mike

thank you all fantastic information

Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but looking on the Monmouth website I have found 2 children born to Thomas & Caroline Powell in Abergavenny, namely Ridley Augustus bapt 16 July 1860 & Tom William bapt 11 Sept 1864. The father is a Grocer of Frogmore Street. I think this is not the family you are looking for.

I think we can dismiss this one for the following reasons:

This is the 1861 Census for Ridley A Powell
Monmouthshire Abergavenny District 5
The National Archives© 1997-2014 Ancestry.com
Index
Household Number Given Name Surname Age Estimated Birth Year Relationship Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
3 Thomas Powell 28 1833 Head Male Abergavenny Monmouthshire Wales
3 Catharine Powell 32 1829 Wife Female Llanvair Monmouthshire Wales
3 Hanbury Hicks 8 1853 Stepson Male Abergavenny Monmouthshire Wales
3 Ridley A Powell 9/12 1860 Son Male Abergavenny Monmouthshire Wales
3 Emma Morgan 20 1841 Servant Female Abergavenny Monmouthshire Wales

The image gives the occupation of Thomas as Draper & Grocer which matches the baptism record but we find hat mother's name is given as Catherine and not Caroline. Also there is a stepson Hanbury Hicks so we look for a marriage between Thomas Powell and Catherine Hicks:
Marriages Dec 1859
Hicks Catharine Abergavenny 11a 73
Powell Thomas Abergavenny 11a 73

I would suggest that there is an error in the baptism records or in the transcription.

One further comment with regards to the marriage in 1859 in Abergavenny of Thomas Powell to Caroline Chivers. The 1911 Census for Caroline tell us that she was married 52 years. 1859 +52 = 1911

Mike

........and it was all going so well!

I am posting these for completeness. It was bugging me that Caroline was not born until 1843, but was apparently showing on the 1841 Census as 3 years old. This would appear to be the FIRST Caroline.

Details
County Somerset
Place Radstock
Church St Nicholas Pr
Register Number 424
Date Of Birth
Baptism Date 17 Mar 1839
Forename Caroline
Sex -
Father Forename Joseph
Mother Forename Mary
Father Surname CHIVERS
Mother Surname
Abode Radstock
Father Occupation Miner
Notes
FileNumber 6113

Death
Jun 1842
CHIVERS Caroline Clutton 11 87

Additional Info.

County Somerset
Place Midsomer Norton
Church St John the Baptist
Register Number 1080
Date Of Birth
Baptism Date 10 Feb 1850
Forename James
Sex M
Father Forename
Mother Forename Mary
Father Surname
Mother Surname CHIVERS
Abode Norton
Father Occupation Widow
Notes Base Born Son
File Number 13577

Mary was born in Kilmersdon, so likely marriage?

County Somerset
Place Kilmersdon
Church St Peter and Paul Bt
Register Number 341
Marriage Date 20 May 1834
Groom Forename Joseph
Groom Surname CHIVERS
Groom Age
Groom Parish Of This Parish
Groom Condition Bachelor
Groom Occupation
Groom Abode
Bride Forename Mary
Bride Surname BRYANT
Bride Age
Bride Parish Of This Parish
Bride Condition Spinster
Bride Occupation
Bride Abode
Groom Father Forename
Groom Father Surname
Groom Father Occupation
Bride Father Forename
Bride Father Surname
Bride Father Occupation
Witness One Forename James Walwyn
Witness One Surname BRYANT
Witness Two Forename Wm
Witness Two Surname MILLWARD
Notes Bishops Transcript; Banns
File Number 6211

I was rather hoping the Baggus name might crop up, as we still haven't found Thomas & Caroline's marriage (assuming there was one). Back on the trail!

Evening Chris,
I thought we settled on Abergavenny 1859 as per your earlier post ?.

Researching all FreeBMD again, which we know gives good coverage for our areas, gave what seemed like the perfect match, so close...

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1849 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brown Harriet Monmouth 26 101
Chivers William Monmouth 26 101
Jones Caroline Monmouth 26 101
Powell Thomas Monmouth 26 101

Closely followed by

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1859 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chivers Caroline Abergavenny 11a 136
Davies Sarah Abergavenny 11a 136
Gwynne William Abergavenny 11a 136
Powell Thomas Abergavenny 11a 136

Or am I missing something (probably) ?

I'm happy with the chivers //powell marriage as the children ,dates etc all match up

Hi Jeff

The last comments I looked at were from Graham & Mike, neither of whom thought the marriage I had found was the right one!

So was Midsomer Norton a red herring then? 'Cos I am completely confused now!

Regards
Chris

I think you may have misread my post where I dismiss the suggestion by Graham that we were on the wrong track. I believe that the 1859 marriage in Abergavenny between Thomas Powell and Caroline Chivers is the most likely but one can only be absolutely certain by obtaining the certificate.

Mike

Hi Mike

Yep, I did misread your post - sorry!

I am now going to lie down in a darkened room with a vinegar rag on my forehead!

Cheers
Chris