Been bashing at this brick wall for years ...
Ancestor Annie raised a family and died in Cheltenham.
Her marriage certificate (1892) insists her name was Annie Abbott Taylor. She claims her father was Edwin Abbott Taylor - a deceased master carpenter.
In census' of 1901 and 1911 she claims to have been born in Coleford (specifically Whitecliff). She also goes by the name Amy.
I can find no record of any marriage for Edwin and no record of birth/baptism (1869) of Annie (not in Coleford parishes nor Monmouth register)
There is a beautiful scenario of cabinet maker Edwin Taylor being born in Cheltenham (1830) and then moving to Shoreditch, Middlesex - but he didn't have a daughter Annie/Amy around 1869. That scenario also uncovers an elder sister Selina Sarah who married in 1888 also claiming her father as Edwin - deceased cabinet maker.
I can find no census records containing 2 year old Annie in 1871, nor twelve year old Annie in 1881.
A real mystery - if anyone has any ideas?

Hi Cassandra, and a warm welcome to the forum.
Must be quick for now, but after a quick and largely fruitless look at a few online databases, my first thoughts are;
1. I'm not disputing the name given on the Marriage certificate, but please bear in mind that this is merely a record of what Annie told the minister on that day. I've seen plenty of examples within my own trees and within queries on this forum where adults have given a different name at their marriage, perhaps formally adopting a petname over their baptised name, and also adding completely new second names, perhaps in recognition of a recently departed father or mother.
2. Regarding her also using the name Amy - how certain are you of this as fact ?. Have you seen the actual images of the various census etc records, or just transcriptions ?
3. Please clarify the beautiful scenario you give - do you have any reason to think this is your ancestor, perhaps handed down thro the famnily ?. Or is it the results of you tracing an Edwin Taylor of Cheltenham you found in the records ?. (I see this is not a rare name at all)

Thanks for now, Jeff.

---

As you know FreeBMD has;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1892 (>99%)
TAYLOR Annie Abbott Cheltenham 6a 886
VENN Charlie Albert Cheltenham 6a 886
WELCH Ellen Cheltenham 6a 886
Young Walter James Cheltenham 6a 886

Confirmed by GlosBMD, which shows why no Church records;

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
VENN Charlie Albert TAYLOR Annie Abbott Cheltenham Cheltenham Register Office 1892 28 26

More to follow...

Can you supply names of Witnesses to the marriage please as this may help in the search.

Mike

From FamilySearch transcripts;

1911 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Charley Albert Venn Head Male 45 Hotel Porter. Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Annie Venn Wife Female 37 Whitecliff Forest Of Deane, Gloucestershire
Frederick Charles Venn Son Male 16 Printer's Apprentice. Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Alfred William Venn Son Male 14 Errand Boy. Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Frances Winfred Venn Daughter Female 10 School Girl. Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

1901 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Charles A Venn Head Male 33 Labourer General. Winchcombe, Gloucestershire
Amy Abbot Venn Wife Female 30 Coleford, Gloucestershire
Alfred Wm Venn Son Male 4 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Frances Wind Venn Daughter Female 0 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

So Annie, or Amy (suspect possible transcription error here) was born about 1871 to 1874. Suspect 1871 is nearer the mark, many ladies don't like to admit to being "40".

I've tried searching for Annie and/or Amy with father Edwin Taylor in the earlier census', and after much tweaking of the seach input data I can only find the following possible match. Clearly the age is again in doubt, this Annie appears to have been born abt 1864 ??
Sadly being FamilySearch I cannot confirm the precise place.

1871 Coleford sub district, Monmouthshire, Wales, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Edwin Taylor Head Male 30 Coal miner. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Taylor Wife Female 28 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas A Taylor Son Male 9 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Annie Taylor Daughter Female 7 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ellen Taylor Daughter Female 5 West Dean, Gloucestershire

Same household, later years;

1881 Berry Hill, Monmouth district, West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Edwin Taylor Head Male 40 Coal miner. West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Mary Taylor Wife Female 34 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Thomas Taylor Son Male 19 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
George Taylor Son Male 4 Coal miner. West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
James Adams Father In Law Male 85 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Ann Adams Mother Female 81 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England

1891 Christchurch, West Dean Parish, Monmouthshire.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Edwin Taylor Head Male 50 Coal miner. Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England
Mary Taylor Wife Female 49 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England
George Taylor Son Male 14 Coal miner. Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England
Elizabeth Taylor Sister Female 68 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England

1901 Holy Jesus Parish, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Edwin Taylor Head Male 60 Coleford, Gloucestershire
Mary Taylor Wife Female 59 Coleford, Gloucestershire

(Think this must be Lydbrook area. HOWEVER this record shows THIS Edwin was not deceased when Annie/Amy married in 1891. Also no hint of being a master carpenter. ???)

------------

Hopefully Cassandra can please advise which if any of these Census details are correct, and ideally advise those for Annie/Amy for other years. All available info helps.

Thanks Jefff,

I think her given name was probably Amy and pet name was Annie, rather than the other way round. She styled herself both as Amy and Annie in census images. Unfortunately the marriage certificate is only a copy.
There is a lovely picture of the "cabinet maker" family hailing from Cheltenham and moving to Shoreditch in census' 1841 thru 1871. But the link is only the name Edwin, the profession and Cheltenham. There is no direct link with Amy/Annie.
Taylor isn't so rare, but this "Abbott" is intriguing. My first thought was that is may have been an earlier wife's maiden name being passed down - but no luck there.
What is really annoying is the complete absence of any birth/baptism record for Amy/Annie - at least with the correct father.
I just can't believe that she would have imagined the "Abbot" bit, nor being born in Whitecliff/Coleford.

Cass

Thanks Mike,

Witnesses were William Gainer and Agnes Gillet They look like friends from the locality and haven't turned up anything new (as yet).

Cass

Hi again Jefff,

Yes, all the census stuff for the time turns up colliers/miners with one (wealthy) tradesman. But I can't imagine that Amy would have conjured up the "master carpenter" bit out of thin air.

Cass

Hi again Cass, thanks for clarifying/confirming what you know.
It's also good to know you've clearly done all the right things before asking us.

Yes I agree it's odd regarding the details about her father's name and occupation on the marriage certificate, but as you say there should be a logical explanation for it all. However seeing as he was apparently deceased at the time of her marriage, it was presumably she who gave his details to the minister, so there's still a possibility she has introduced something "new" to his previous history, altho one has to wonder why ?.
Perhaps ??? she was trying to impress her new husband and his family, seeing as they were from "posh" Cheltenham.
I also wonder if there was any significance in it being a Registry office marriage, with none of her family present ?

I must say I'm often suspicious when the word "master" appears against an occupation. In theory it implies a particularly high degree of training and skill in the given trade. Yes, of course sometimes its correct and appropriate, but often people liked to embellish their own titles. I've seen a few cases of men calling themselves "master mason" for example, when in fact they were jobbing bricklayers; which despite being a skill it is not quite the same as someone who might produce carved stonework for a church or cathedral say.
Don't forget that every mine employed carpenters as well as miners, they were very important as the pit props supporting the underground workings and the head gear frame above the shaft were all made from wood. And I suppose if a man was the pit's senior carpenter in charge of other carpenters he might consider himself as a "master carpenter" ?

Re the various census' for Amy / Annie, it sounds like you have found her in other years than the one I found ?.
Do these help narrow down her likely birth year, and if so what is it ?
Ditto father Edwin ?

What's your thoughts on the 1871 census I found, with parents Edwin & Mary ?

Thanks for your help, J

Initial investigation of the named Witnesses does not indicate a family connection and is more likely they were known to each other at place of employment as Charley VENN and William GAINER were Hotel Porters.

There is a Birth Registration as follows:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
TAYLOR Ann 1867 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 23 373

This entry suggests that Ann was born to a single mother and there does not appear to be a baptism.

There is also this baptism:
Year: 1872
Month: Aug
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: TAYLOR
Child_Forenames: John
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Esther
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Coleford
Occupation: Single
Officiating_Minister: Thomas Holbrow BA PC
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN I/6
Page_Number: 68
Parish_Chapel: Coleford

It is also noted that a resident of Coleford was Edward ABBOTT (sometimes known as Edwin). This is the 1861 Census

1861 Census:
Incline Pitch, Coleford
Household Number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
108 Edward Abbot Head 36 1825 Male N
108 Esther Abbot Wife 27 1834 Female Coleford Gloucestershire England
108 John Johnson Stepson 4 1857 Male Coleford Gloucestershire England
108 Elizabeth Tayler Mother-in-law 70 1791 Female Coleford Gloucestershire England

Edward's occupation is Chimney Sweep.
This Census suggests that Edward married Esther Taylor but I have yet to find a marriage.
John Johnson's birth appears as:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
TAYLOR John 1857 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 12 425
Mother's Former Name is Blank

This would appear to be Esther's baptism:
Year: 1833
Month: May
Day: 5
Parents_Surname: TAYLOR
Child_Forenames: Hester
Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Whitecliff
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Edw[ar]d B. Bagshawe Off[iciatin]g Min[ister]
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 113
Parish_Chapel: Newland

Our next step is to locate the Abbot family in the 1871 Census:
Whitecliff, Coleford
Household schedule number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth Place
152 John Taylor Head 40 1831 Male Newent Gloucestershire England
152 Ann Taylor Wife 45 1826 Female Berry Hill Gloucestershire England
152 James Taylor Son 20 1851 Male Whitecliff Gloucestershire England
152 Emily Taylor Daughter 16 1855 Female Whitecliff Gloucestershire England
152 George Taylor Son 14 1857 Male Whitecliff Gloucestershire England
152 Sarah D Taylor Daughter 10 1861 Female Whitecliff Gloucestershire England
152 John Taylor Son 7 1864 Male Whitecliff Gloucestershire England
152 Arthur Taylor Son 5 1866 Male Whitecliff Gloucestershire England
153 Edward Abbate Head 53 1818 Male London England
153 John Abbate Son 14 1857 Male Coleford Glos
153 William Abbate Son 11 1860 Male Coleford Glos

Edward/Edwin is listed as a Widower and his Occupation - Chimney Sweep.

Next search is for Esther in 1871 Census and she is with 3 children in Monmouth Workhouse:
Household schedule number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
200 Esther Taylor Inmate 38 1833 Female Newland Gloucestershire England
200 Anne Taylor Inmate 3 1868 Female Newland Gloucestershire England
200 Edwin Taylor Inmate 8 1863 Male Newland Gloucestershire England
200 Alice Taylor Inmate 5 1866 Female Newland Gloucestershire England

Birth Registrations for the other children are:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
TAYLOR Thomas Edwin 1862 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 17 296
TAYLOR Elizabeth Alice 1864 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 20 131

Continued in next post

Mike

Continued from previous post:

Edward/Edwin Abbot died in 1877:
Year: 1877
Month: Dec
Day: 18
Surname: ABBOT
Forenames: Edwin
Residence: Chimney Sweep
Age_at_death: 55
Officiating_Minister: William H Mills
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) Coleford (2) South Div'n Adults Gr (3) Y 8 (4) Consecrated (5)
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25/204/2
Page_No: 22
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery

Alice Taylor is in Gloucester on 1881:
Address Given Name Surname Relationship to Head Marital Status Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country
Llanthony Cottages Alfred Pratter Head Married 41 1840 Male Railway Goods Inspector Frome Somerset England
Llanthony Cottages Lydia Pratter Wife Married 41 1840 Female Housewife Frome Somerset England
Llanthony Cottages Alice Taylor Servant 17 1864 Female General Servant Domestic Coleford Gloucestershire England

Since posting this item I find that the following information of Esther does not relate to Esther Taylor of Coleford and is to be disregarded
Esther and Ann are in Lea Bailey in 1881:
Address Given Name Surname Relationship to Head Marital Status Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country
Joseph Hayward Head Married 35 1846 Male Coal Miner Little Dean Gloucestershire England
Esther Hayward Wife Married 35 1846 Female Sewetly Gloucestershire England
Ann Taylor Step Daughter 13 1868 Female Domestic Servant Lydbrook Gloucestershire England
Eliza Hayward Daughter 7 1874 Female Scholar Cinderford Gloucestershire England

And this would be Esther's marriage:
Year: 1873
Month: Apr
Day: 19
Grooms_Surname: HAYWARD
Grooms_Forenames: Joseph
Grooms_Age: 26
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Coal Miner
Grooms_Residence: Cinderford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Hayward
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Coal Miner
Brides_Surname: TAYLOR
Brides_Forenames: Esther Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 26
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Cinderford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Taylor
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Stone cutter
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: Both Sign
Witness_1: James Webb
Witness_2: Fanny Webb
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Barker Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 55
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

There was a marriage in 1873 at Drybrook between James Webb and Fanny Hayward and the witness was Esther Taylor.

And this would appear to be Annie in 1891:
Given Name Surname Relationship Gender Age Estimated Birth Year Birth County Birth Country
Joseph Hayward Head Male 44 1847 East Dean
Esther E Hayward Wife Female 44 1847 East Dean
Annie I Taylor (transcribed as Hayward) Daughter Female 24 1867 Lydbrook Gloucestershire England
Eliza A Hayward Daughter Cinderford

Mike

Wow , well done Mike, excellent work !!

Altho you didn't specifically mention it, I'm sure you realise that Edwin's Death in 1877 fits perfectly with his being "deceased" at time of Annie's marriage in 1892.

Interesting how he's disowned his "wife" Esther by 1871 census. I wonder if this gets into the old newspapers ?

I've tried vey hard to add some more records to the above, using various websites, but no luck so far in many ways eg cannot find any marriage for Edwin/Edward & Esther/Ester/Hester. This search not helped by the spelling variations including both surnames... even when using the helpful FamilySearch site.

While unsuccessfully searching for Esther's later movements or death after 1871, I've accidentally found these households which show there was more than one Esther Taylor born in the Whitecliff area in the mid 1830s, so beware while searching for her !

To confirm, these are probably NOT our Esther, I think these are both same families;

1841 Whitecliff, Newland, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
James Taylor M 40 Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Taylor F 35 Gloucestershire
Emma Taylor F 7 Gloucestershire
Esther Taylor F 4 Gloucestershire
Catherine Bennettle F 65 Gloucestershire

1851 Rock Lane, Newland, Monmouth District, Monmouthshire, Wales.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Betty Taylor Head F 64 Widow. Pauper. Newland, Gloucestershire
Esther Taylor Daughter F 18 At home. Newland, Gloucestershire
Harriett Steele Lodger F 16 Newland, Gloucestershire

(There is a Rock Lane on the southern edge of Coleford, towards Whitecliff.)

---

Here's another one, who MAY ?? be our Esther ??

Sorry cannot be more specific with the address, but Henry Rooks is described as Major General Justice Of The Peace County Of Monmouth, so probably not hard to find.

1851 Landogo, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Willoughby Rooks Head M 67 Landogo, Monmouthshire
Selena Willoughby Rooks Wife F 65 Landogo, Monmouthshire
Caroline Willoughby Rooks Daughter F 29 Landogo, Monmouthshire
Esther Taylor Servant F 20 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Barnes Servant F 23 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Robert Williams Servant M 19 Bishops Lydiard, Somerset

======

Sorry I couldn't find anything more useful for any of the main characters.

Thanks for your continued attention Jefff,

Annie's age - I figure:
1911 census, claims age 37, so born April 1873/March 1874
1901 census, claims age 30, so born April 1870/March 1871
1891 census, claims age 21, so born April 1869/March 1870

Census age claims are notoriously unreliable, but I suspect we can rule out the 1911 claim (she was around 40 I guess - and doesn't like to admit to it!!)
1869 - 1871 is probably closer to it.
Now at 19 October 1892 marriage she admits to age 23. There is no need to inflate her age, being over 21 and with a 26 year old husband, 23 seems about right.
This puts her birth at Nov 1868 - Oct 1869
So I figure it is somewhere between April 1869 and Oct 1869.

Regarding 1871 census (Edwin and Mary). I have seen these before and discounted it, because of the mining. I have always rejected anything to do with mining, because of the carpenter claim. But your suggestion of "woodworker with pit props etc" could have some merit. I think I need to research this with a more open mind and see if there is any ancestry that has Christian name patterns and maybe a maiden name Abbott.

Cass

Mike,

Gee, it sure is good to talk with you and Jefff - some people who really looks at the data and tries to build a story, rather than so many who leap on one entry and jump to unverifiable conclusions.
After reviewing your stuff and Jefff comments, I am going to be more open minded about Edwin's occupation and see if that blends with you two guys.
I have found it most annoying (hey - nobody said this hobby was easy!!!), that the family could not be found in any census up until 1891 and no record of Annie's birth.
(She just has to be FoD, she's far too adamant about it). Similarly, the marriage of Edwin is a mystery.

Cass

Sorry Mike, but in 1891 Annie is at Great Western Hotel in Cheltenham.
I think she may have then moved to Fleece Hotel which she gave as her address when marrying Charlie the following year.

Cass

Hi Cass,
thanks for your detailed reply confirming that you've been doing all the right things thusfar, and have been open-minded and understanding regarding things such as quoted ages on census etc documents. As you're a new member of the forum it's hard for us to gauge your previous work, and we've found a great many new researchers don't appreciate that such things could and often did vary from census to census, indeed some researchers won't accept it at all. Ditto re name spelling variations, and even the occasional fibs regarding occupation or marital status. So it's great to know that you are aware of such things (especially Annie's age for which I thank you), and that we're all on the same level regarding your brickwall, which has been an enjoyable challenge. (I think, haha.. It wouldn't be so much fun or so rewarding if this hobby was easy !)

Regarding the surname spelling variations, I've just been revisiting the records on the FreeBMD site (as before under Monmouth and then Westbury-o-Severn Districts, but this time using TAYLER as a surname. I'm annoyed I didn't think to do that one before as my paternal Grandmother was a "Taylor" from the Lydbrook side of the Forest - it's a very common surname in those parts ! - and I know the FreeBMD site only searches for the exact same spelling as the data we enter. Unfortunately, and having said all that, yes I did find a fair few TaylEr records but none that seem relevant here.

Another thing we've seen quite often in this Forum is that people in Victorian times often claimed to be married "for convenience" when they were not, or adopted different names etc. (Hopefully you've realised this Forum can be searched going back some years, so one can often find answers to questions on all aspects of FH and local history).

---

Finally, regarding the possible mining links. I may well be wrong (I often am, ask the wife ahem !), but I'm guessing you may not be UK-based ?. If that's true, then fine of course, but I'm asking how well you know the Forest of Dean and it's history ?.
Asking as the towns in the area grew enormously and quickly in the 1800s largely due to an influx of workers for mining. In some parts of the UK the predominant occupation was agriculture, here it was mining, just like the valleys of South Wales etc.
And yes towards the end of the 1800s this was mainly coal mining, but please don't think that was all. For centuries before that, and especially in the western Forest around your Newland/Coleford search area, it was ochre and particularly iron that was mined. The iron ore came from iron stone, which may also explain why there was and still is stone quarrying in the western Forest. If your Edwin was working in the mines, it might well have been an iron mine.

The following link is best opened in a new window or tab, and will take you to a map of the Forest showing the mines as known in 1894.
http://lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/Overviewmap.html

You can see that the black spots are coal mines, the brown ones are iron, and most of these are on the western side. You can then click on individual map sections to enlarge them, this next is the Coleford area, you can see a few iron mines in the Whitecliff area twixt Coleford and Newland village.
http://lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/Staunton.html

In the decades and centuries before this map there would have been far more mines, albeit smaller ones prior to them being worked-out or combined into the bigger concerns shown on the map, but the general trend was the same.

Also in this area is the important Whitecliff iron works which relied on the local iron ore and charcoal.
https://www.forestofdeanhistory.org.uk/resources/sites-in-the-forest/whitecliff-furnace/

I do hope this has been of interest to you, I apologise unreservedly if you already knew all this - especially as your comments suggest you're not here just to chase names and dates like so many family tree builders, but that like me you're interested in the wider scheme of how our ancestors lived their lives.

Thanks again for your interesting posts.
Jeff

Hi Cass,
if you revisit Mike's post you'll see that the mention of Annie being in East Dean (aka Cinderford area) in the 1891 Census, as part of the Hayward household, Mike's said it is in fact a different family than the one we're researching.
As with some of my posts, altho Mike's found this info while researching your line, he's realised it's not relevant BUT has left it on the forum in case other researchers find it of use at a later date. I don't know about you, but when I first discovered this great website and forum about 10 years ago, I found it purely by accident while trying to find something relevant to my family, and the search engine picked-up an old forum posting, and here I am.
atb J

Hi again Cass,
been trying hard to find any traces of Annie Taylor born abt 1869 in any census, using FamilySearch as so user-friendly regarding name variants and also ease of browsing the results.

However still struggling, and I keep coming back to the 1871 census as posted by Mike Shepway, which seems a great fit to me, and hopefully with you too ?;

1871 Census Monmouth Workhouse:
Household schedule number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
200 Esther Taylor Inmate 38 1833 Female Newland Gloucestershire England
200 Anne Taylor Inmate 3 1868 Female Newland Gloucestershire England
200 Edwin Taylor Inmate 8 1863 Male Newland Gloucestershire England
200 Alice Taylor Inmate 5 1866 Female Newland Gloucestershire England

I've also found this entry which is one of those aggravating occasions when FamilySearch appears to have omitted the rest of the census form. However, and as I suspected, a quick look at Ancestry (which has free 1881 access) confirms this person is at Westbury On Severn Workhouse. There doesn't appear to be any relations with her.

Name Ann Taylor
Event Type Census
Event Date 1881
Event Place Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England
Registration District Westbury On Severn
Residence Note Westbury On Severn
Gender Female
Age 14
Marital Status (Original) Single
Occupation Scholar
Birth Year (Estimated) 1867
Birthplace Newland, England
Page Number 6
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 2525/153
Affiliate Record Type Household

I then tried to find siblings Edwin(or Edward?) and Alice. Ditto their Birth records, yet no real luck with any of them. I wonder if they were split-up and sent off to work in service (none of their names are especially rare).

????

I've just realised you've quoted an age for Annie (or was it Amy?) in the 1891 census.
Please can you advise more details; where was she, was she with other family members, etc ? I don't understand why I cannot find her.

???

Thanks, J.

-----------

PS the full 1881 Census for W-o-S workhouse is here c/o the excellent Workhouses website.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/WestburyOnSevern/Westbury1881.shtml

The Westbury workhouse "served" the eastern side of the Forest, whereas the western side had Monmouth (which had replaced the earlier Coleford poorhouse) and Chepstow. If interested, general info abt these workhouses here.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/WestburyOnSevern/
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Monmouth/
etc

Annie appears as Annie Taylor, Servant at Great Western hotel in Cheltenham in 1891 (RG12/2047 p24)
In 1901, after marriage to Charlie she again styles herself as Amy Abbot (Venn)

I think I am now going to ditch all previous ideas I had and concentrate on Mike's workhouse discovery. The location, names and ages are just all too coincidental. It also means that (as long as he is still living), Edwin will be alone - maybe out of county?

Cass

This report may be of significance since it associates an Esther TAYLOR, recently in the Monmouth Workhouse, with an Edwin ABBOT who she apparently lived with during the time the three children were born.

BNA Monmouthshire Beacon - Saturday 08 July 1871

THE GREEN EYED MONSTER.

Esther Taylor was summoned for assaulting Ann Hoare, Whitecliff, the 28th ult. The defendant said she went down to Abbot’s house, and the complainant caught hold of her throat to choke her. She then struck her. Complainant said that defendant came to Edwin Abbot's house on the day in question while she (complainant) was indoors. Defendant went up stairs searched the bedrooms and threw some bed clothes out of the window into the street. She (complainant) told defendant she would not have that. Defendant had not lived with Abbot for ten months, and had lately been living with a married man at Clearwell, since which time she bad been in the Union. While defendant was throwing the things out of the window she (complainant) remonstrated with her and the defendant threatened to put a knife into her. Defendant caught hold her by the hair of her head and beat her till the neighbours forced her to leave off. Defendant said she went to Whitecliff for her goods. She had been in the Monmouth Union while Abbot had been keeping the complainant. When she (defendant) went into the house the complainant ran at her, caught hold of her by the throat, and tried to strangle her. She (defendant) only threw a bed quilt which belonged to her out of the window. She had lived with Abbot fifteen years, and when she knew him he was only worth the clothes he was wearing. Defendant was bound over in her own recognizance in the sum of 5 keep the peace for six months. As she was being taken of out the court, she saw Abbot and attempted to pitch into him, but was prevented by the police. She was taken down to the cells for short time to get cool.

GR 1861 Census, Coleford, Incline Pitch

Edward ABBOT, Head, Mar, 36, Chimney Sweep, b. Not known
Esther, Wife, Mar, 27, Gloster, Coleford
John JOHNSON, Step-son, 4, Gloster, Coleford
Elizabeth TAYLER, Mother-in-Law, Wid, 70, Gloster, Coleford

It would appear that Edwin/Edward Abbott married Charlotte Tomblins in 1848:

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
ABBOTT Edwin TOMBLINS Charlotte Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office Closed 1848 3 87

and the 1851 Census tells us that he is aged 27, born in Bredon, Worcestershire, married and living alone in Gloucester Road, Coleford. In a neighbouring property are 2 children - Thomas Abbot aged 4 and Mary Abbot aged 2.

Here are the baptisms of the 2 children:

Year: 1846
Month: Sep
Day: 25
Parents_Surname: ABBOTT
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: Edwin
Mothers_Forenames: Charlotte
Mothers_Surname: Bird
Residence: Whitecliff
Occupation: Sweep
Officiating_Minister: J L Sisson DDPerpetual Curate Coleford
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Singlewoman; illegitimate child
Notes:
Register_Reference: P 93 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 78
Parish_Chapel: Coleford

Year: 1851
Month: Jan
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: ABBOTT
Child_Forenames: Mary Ann
Fathers_Forenames: Edwin
Mothers_Forenames: Charlotte
Mothers_Surname: Tumblings
Residence: Gloucester Road
Occupation: Chimney Sweep
Officiating_Minister: J Burleigh Colwill Off Min
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: 1) Privately: 2) Illegitimate
Notes: Occupation for Charlotte Tumblings is not stated a double line is drawn in the space
Register_Reference: P 93 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 93
Parish_Chapel: Coleford

What happened to Charlotte I do not know.

The 1861 Census tells us that Edward/Edwin and Esther are living together. He is 36 but place of birth is blank and Esther is 27 and born Coleford. Edward/Edwin's mother in law is given as Elizabeth Taylor and therefore Esther's mother. This baptism is most likely that of Esther:
Year: 1833
Month: May
Day: 5
Parents_Surname: TAYLOR
Child_Forenames: Hester
Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Whitecliff
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Edw[ar]d B. Bagshawe Off[iciatin]g Min[ister]
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 113
Parish_Chapel: Newland

In my post of 28 November I pointed out a birth registration of Ann Taylor in 1867 and with all the information we have now gathered together especially the 1871 Census entry of Esther and children in Monmouth Workhouse I believe this is the birth registration of Ann/Annie. The Workhouse information is probably the most reliable as it would most likely have been gathered from the Parish of Newland which included Coleford.

Our findings tell us that Edwin/Edward Abbot was born c1824 and his trade was Chimney Sweep. This burial also included in my earlier post is therefore a good fit:

Year: 1877
Month: Dec
Day: 18
Surname: ABBOT
Forenames: Edwin
Residence: Chimney Sweep
Age_at_death: 55
Officiating_Minister: William H Mills
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) Coleford (2) South Div'n Adults Gr (3) Y 8 (4) Consecrated (5)
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25/204/2
Page_No: 22
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery

The Newspaper report submitted by Mike Pinchin is definitely relevant.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you, thank you, thank you,
This is so obviously right on the button.
Even if I had found the 1871 workhouse records I would never have discovered that news item, even though I subscribe to BNA.
I still do not know why the Ancestry census search did not reveal those workhouse records for me, but this has sorted the mystery very nicely.
Thanks again to Jeff, Mike and yourself. You have pulled a thorn from my side that has been there for years ...

Cass

Hi again Cass, thanks for that 1891 census info. I guess the reason I couldn't find her is I'd maybe ? told the FamilySearch site she was still in the Forest area, altho I'm still a little surprised I didn't find her eventually as you'd already mentioned Cheltenham, and while browsing thro the pages of offered possible hits I would have eventually found myself looking at Cheltenham area records. In fact I see there's 3 different Annie Taylors born a bt 1867 all in Cheltenham in the 1891 census, two in service. Clearly with such a commonplace name (with mulitple possible spelling variants..), despite my best efforts with the search engine filters, trying to be methodical using several search repetitions but with slightly-tweaked input data and filter settings, sometimes things still slip past us. But as you've said. it's not meant to be easy !

I think this may help explain why you didn't find the 1871 workhouse census info that Mike found. Indeed, when I found it last night and almost by accident while using FamilySearch at first I'd forgotten he'd already posted it.

I've used Ancestry several times over the last 8 years, and as good as it is I've also on occasion found it very frustrating indeed. Sometimes I've taken ages to relocate a record that I'd found easily and almost accidentally a few days before. Sometimes it's better to switch the search onto a different member of the same household/family. Some of Ancestry's transcriptions are SO very wrong, for no good reason at all when you view the original image - I'm told these were first done in by American prison inmates, so not people with the best motivation for detail or local knowledge of UK names, trades and places. eg I was surprised but delighted to find one of my ancestors near Longhope was a ship's steward - until I read the image which very clearly stated "shepherd" ... Whether these same people were used for the transcriptions of the ostensibly British websites like FMP I'm not sure. And even when these errors have been corrected by well-meaning folk like you or I, the Ancestry search engine still seems baised towards the old, incorrect, data.
When I started this hobby the text books all said beware LDS (now FamilySearch) for poor transcripts, but I think that's unfair and their site is excellent, so user-friendly, and it's free !. Ancestry also seems to be baised towards offering highly unlikely records when pages later it gives much more likely hits, often offering very unlikely Parish Records from distant parts of the UK when the basic BMD data (which they get from FreeBMD), is often nearer the mark; and this despite all my search input data correctly pointing towards the correct local area. I think they're trying to promote their paid-for datasets instead of the free access ones. Some of their hints are ridiculous if not impossible, pointing towards records for people I've already told the site wern't alive at that time, or in that country. I share the views of others who believe Ancestry has got worse in this respect in recent years, since it was "improved", yet it is now less of a tool for serious researchers. We've had these discussions on this forum in the past.

In short, yes of course Ancestry is excellent in many ways, it's also cheaper than many of the competitors, or even free at librairies. I like FindMyPast as it offers different record sets, but I dislike using the site, finding it less user-friendly than Ancestry. I'm about to start a free trial with The Genealogist, which many reviews say is best of the lot.... we'll see.

In my engineering career it's proven best to use as many sources of reference as possible, to get a full,rounded and unbiased knowledge of a given subject. I recommend you try to use different websites and not just one. Even when I have an Ancestry sub, perhaps one of their free weekends, I will still use the FreeBMD, GlosBMD and FamilySearch sites as well. In fact I'd probably start with these before logging into Ancestry. They all have their pros & cons, but best to use them all rather than place all ones research eggs in one basket.

Hoping this helps,
Jeff.

PS: Oh and yes !, well-done again to the two Mikes for their brilliant finds, without which I'd still be floundering. My motto in my working life seems to have transferred to my efforts on this forum - I'm keen, cheap and available. Trouble is sometimes that's not enough and we need proper researchers like the two Mikes !
Thanks guys !

Looking for Edwin's partner Charlotte TOMBLINGs and her children, Thomas bap 1846 and Mary Ann bap 1851 while Charlotte was quite young. Another tricky surname to search due to the number of possible spelling variations, Tomblings, Tamlins, Tumblings etc, but think these records relate to her and her family.

1841 Whitecliff, Newland, Gloucestershire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Ann Tomblins F 45 Gloucestershire
Tom Smith M 21 Gloucestershire
Ann Smith F 18 Gloucestershire
Charlotte Tomlins F 15 Gloucestershire
Henry Tomlins M 11 Gloucestershire

Guessing Ann is mother of Charlotte & Henry ?.
Suspect Ann's husband was Henry, as per marriage of their (first?) son Henry, below.

Hence

Record_ID: 70346
Entry_Number: 345
Year: 1825
Month: Nov
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: TOMBLINS
Child_Forenames: Charlotte
Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Short Standing
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: T.R. Garnsey Incumbent
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P82 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 44
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex: T514

---

Not a rare name locally, but is this our Ann, cannot find her in later census;

Record_ID: 265447
Entry_Number: 2068
Year: 1842
Month: May
Day: 11
Surname: TOMLINS
Forenames: Anne
Residence: Col[e]ford
Age_at_death: Years 46
Officiating_Minister: T[heophilus] Morgan Off[ciaitin]g Minister
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/16
Page_No: 259
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: T545

Record_ID: 392503
Entry_Number:
Year: 1798
Month: Apr
Day: 8
Parents_Surname: TOMLINS
Child_Forenames: Anne
Fathers_Forenames: George
Mothers_Forenames: Eliz[abe]th
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Berryhill
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 853
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: T545

???

---

Could this be Charlotte's older brother Henry ?, age fits. Is witness Sarah Roberts same as 1861 census below.

Record_ID: 151347
Entry_Number: 37
Year: 1852
Month: Aug
Day: 2
Grooms_Surname: TOMLINS
Grooms_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Age: 21
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Servant
Grooms_Residence: Coleford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Tomlins
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: VAUGHAN
Brides_Forenames: Ann
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Coleford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Vaughan
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: William
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Henry[?] White
Witness_2: Mark of Sarah Roberts
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: George Ridout Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/13
Page_Number: 19
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex_Groom: T545
Soundex_Bride: V250

1861 Stanton Rd, Newland Coleford, Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Sarah Roberts Head F 45 Married. Dressmaker. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Tombling Visitor M 14 At school. Coleford, Gloucestershire
Mary Tombling Visitor F 12 At school. Coleford, Gloucestershire
John Madin Lodger M 50 Ag lab. Ireland

(Stanton = Staunton, west of Newland and Coleford toward Kymin, Monmouth).
Thomas & Mary Ann are Charlotte's children as previous post.

But where's Charlotte now ?. Looks like she's died or moved away, and Sarah's now "adopted" them ?.
Cannot find her anywhere for sure ??? ...

1871 Coleford, Monmouthshire, Wales, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Ann Allen Head F 48 Widowed. Shortstanding, Gloucestershire
Harriet A Bird Niece F 5 Beaufort, Monmouthshire
John Sweeney Lodger M 63 Pedlar. Ireland
Mary Ann Tomlins Niece F 20 Charwoman. Coleford, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Tomlins Niece F 18 Servant. Coleford, Gloucestershire

=========

Not sure if this household is relevant - seemed likely but I now see not rare names in this locality;

???

1871 Coleford, Monmouthshire, Wales.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Elizabeth Tomblins Head F 53 Widowed. Coal miner. Monmouth, Monmouthshire
Hubert Tomblins Son M 19 Coal miner. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Henery Tomblins Son M 16 Coal miner. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Albert Tomblins Son M 8 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Salina Tomblins Daughter F 13 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Harriette Gwilliam Lodger F 18 West Dean, Gloucestershire

1881 West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouth District, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Elizabeth Tomblings Head F 65 Widow. No occupation. Kymin, Monmouthshire, England
Albert Tomblings Son M 19 Coal miner. Five Acres, Gloucestershire, England
William Tomblings Son M 26 Widower. Coal miner. Five Acres, Gloucestershire, England
Emma Tomblings Grand Daughter F 4 Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales
Elizabeth Tomblings Grand Daughter F 1 Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales

1891 Christchurch, West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouth District, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Elizabeth Tomlines Head F 74 Widowed. Monmouthshire, England
Emma Tomlines Granddaughter F 13 Monmouthshire, England
Elizabeth Tomlines Granddaughter F 10 Monmouthshire, England

Now that we have established that Ann is the daughter of Edwin/Edward Abbot and Esther Taylor and that this couple separated before Edwin died in 1877 I have given some time to try to find Esther. There is a marriage as follows:
Year: 1873
Month: Aug
Day: 9
Grooms_Surname: BURGUM
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Widower
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Cinderford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Burgum
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: TAYLOR
Brides_Forenames: Esther
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Cinderford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Taylor
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of Peter Aldridge
Witness_2: Ann Aldridge
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: G.A. Allan Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 98
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John

I have yet to find them in the 1881 Census and thereby confirm this marriage is relevant. However there is an entry in Gloucester Prison records as follows:
Name: Esther Burgum
Age: 64
Record Type: Nominal Prisoners' Registers
Birth Year: abt 1819
Birth Place: Whitadiffe (should read Whitecliffe)
Conviction or Committal Date: 13 Apr 1883
Gaol or Prison: The County Gaol
Gaol or Prison Place: Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Discharge Date: 26 Apr 1883

Esther's age does not match. Perhaps there is a Newspaper Report that may be helpful?

Mike

Ancestry

BURGUM Esther

13 April 1883 - Littledean

Misconduct in Union

days day - Imp

age 64

height 5" 3 and a half inches
eyes: BD Bro

Pauper

Reglion: Church, Whitecliffe

Number of previous convictions: 2 date of last entry: 5 February 1878

There is an Esther PITT - convicted 5 February 1878 - of Westbury, Pauper aged 56 and 5 feet 3 and a half inches

Church

Nat. Newland, Glos, known to P C Wood 1 year nothing else agst her - husband, James "Vegar" Woodside, Cinderford, Glos.

Forgetting to check the databases on this website!!
This entry is in the Summer Convictions database:
Year: 1876
Month: Aug
Day: 1
Surname: BURGHAM
Forename: Esther
Residence: Little Dean
Occupation: Charwoman
Age: 39
Height: 5ft 3 1/2in
Hair_Colour: Dark Brown
Eye_Colour: Blue
Visage: Round
Complexion: Dark
Other_Marks: Scar over right eye, 1 right side forehead, several front teeth out
Cause_of_Commitment: Feloniously stealing one apron and one necktie the property of Richard Davis at East Dean on the 27th of July 1876
Sentence_Passed: One month hard labour
Expiration_of_Term: 30 Aug 1876
When_discharged_or_removed: 30 Aug 1876
By_what_authority: Term expired
Previous_known_character_etc: Native of Newland, married 5 children, known to PC Critchley 14yrs, has been here for assault and vagrancy "Church" Husband James [illegible], Little Dean, Glos
Previous_convictions: 3
Conduct_in_Prison: _
Remarks: _
Register_Reference: QGC9/7

This fits well with what we know of Esther.

Mike

BNA Monmouthshire Beacon - Saturday 12 December 1857

James Burgum, otherwise Pitt, of Cinderford, laborer, was charged with having at Middle Ridge Inclosure, in the township of East Dean, on Tuesday, the Ist instant, unlawfully, wilfully, and maliciously, committed damage on certain property belonging to Her Majesty the Queen, by cutting a live lime tree growing in the said inclosure, and thereby doing damage to the amount of Is.—John Peal stated that he was employed under the Crown, and, on going from his work on the Ist instant, saw the defendant come out of the inclosure, and asked him where he had been. He said he had been cutting a stick. Witness told him that he had been cutting one of the lime trees.—Defendant admitted the offence, but said he did not know it was a lime tree, being rather dark at the time.—Fined 2s. 6d. and costs.

Ancestry: Gloucestershire Prison Records

Calendars of Prisoners, Berkeley, Cirencester, Northgate (Gloucester) Lawfords Gate (Bristol) and Winchombe

11 July 1861

James BURGAN alias PITT aged 43 (c1818) - simple larceny - 1 month - first time

5' 9 and a half inches tall, light brown hair, hazel eyes, sallow complexion, blind left eye

----

July 26 1876

James BURGAN, Lttledean, labourer aged 60 (c1816)

5' 7 inches tall, grey eyes, brown hair, blind left eye, rupture on left side, large scar outside left k ee

Assaulting and beating his wife Easther BURGAND at Little Dean on the 24 July 1876

----

On his marriage to Esther, James says his father was Thomas

Baptism at Littledean

18 October 1818

James PITT, father : Thomas (Charcoal Burner) & Ann

residence: Hundred of St Briavels

---

?

Marragie at English Bicknor

1 December 1814

Thomas BURGUM and Ann PERKINS - witnesses: Thomas PERKINS and Mary BURGUM (with consent of parents)

Googling the National Archives

2 March 1829

Alexander GWILLIAM

Assaulting Anne, wife of Thomas PITT alias BURGUM at Littledean Hill in St Briavels, Hundred.

Rev C Crawley, JP and J PYRKE, JP at Newnham

Foined £2 each to be paid to John LUCAS of Newnham, gentleman and 16/6 costs each, or two months in Littledean House of Correction.

Crimed committed 19 February 1829.

Alexander Gwilliam
Age 37:
Register of Prisoners
Littledean House of Correction
Littledean Gloucestershire
2 May 1829

Aged 37, occupation: Nailer

Charged on the oath of Ann the wife of Thos PITT alias BERGUM with having on the 19 day of February last at Little Dean Hill in the Hundred of St Briavels in the said County of Gloucester committed a violent assault upon her the said Ann PITT alias BURGUM

--

? Burial at Littledean

30 August 1840

Ann PITT aged 53, Hundred of St Briavels

Thanks Mike,

Thanks to your steer I have found this in the Momouthshire Beacon.
It really sealed the facts uncovered earlier.
Cass