1841 Census for George MARSHAL / WARD - Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Can anyone help? I am trying to find George Marshal(l) b c 1819, later known as Ward, on the 1841 census but can't see him.

Associated thread is

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=8789

here he is in 1851 at Joyford
HO107; Piece: 2444; Folio: 333
Charles Marshal 1
Emma Marshal 27
George Marshal 31
Sarah Marshal 11 Mo

His marriage has his father as John Byrne to complicate things more!

There is a James Burns b 1806 at Joyford in 1841- could he be a connection? There is no George with this family, but George lived at Joyford until he died in 1867.
HO107; Piece 364; Book: 2
Anne Burns 12
Eliza Burns 35
Hannah Burns 1
Henry Burns 11
James Burns 35 haulier
Jane Burns 8
Mary Burns 5
William Burns 15

I can't seem to find him in 1841 under any of the 3 names!
Any ideas anyone? Mind you he probably had another name at that time!!!

Thanks

Simone x

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From the marriage detail

Year 1848
Month Dec
Day 24

Groom Surname MARSHALL
Groom Forename(s) George
Groom Age at Marriage full
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession Collier
Groom Residence West Dean
Groom Father's Surname Byrne
Groom Father's Forename(s) John
Groom Father's Rank or Profession Freeholder

I've been looking for BYRNE, BIRNE etc with no joy !

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks Slowhands. I despair of this one!

Seems coincidental the Burns family living at Joyford in 1841 but he looks too young to be Georges 'father'. Can't be anyway 'cos father was John!

The marriage states John Byrne is a Freeholder as occupation. What would that mean exactly?

Simone x

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Freeholder -- usually implies he owns / has title to some land

I guess he may be earning an income from that land i.e. selling wood or charcoal

Year: 1884
Month: Oct
Day: 11
Parents Surname: BURNS
Child Forenames: John
Father's Forenames: William
Mother's Forenames: Charlotte
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Joyford
Occupation: Wood Cutter
Officiating Minister: C. Barnes Vicar
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda: Adult age 56 when Baptized
Notes: Notation is in the left margin of page 19
Register Reference: P82 IN 1/5
Page No: 19
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch

1841 Carterspiece
William Burns abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Burns abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
Amelia Burns abt 1839 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Burns abt 1829 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
Hannah Burns abt 1831 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
Harriet Burns abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
Jane Burns abt 1836 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire
John Burns abt 1837 Gloucestershire, England Bicknor English, Gloucestershire

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks Slowhands-

Found this one as a big maybe, but no residence listed. If chapel is English Bicknor, could that be Joyford at this time too. Sorry, I get a bit confused with the Geography, as you know!! especially when one census has Joyford in a different civil parish to the next census! Mind you it doesn't help me with George. :(

125378
Entry Number:
Year: 1798
Month: Aug
Day: 17
Parents Surname: BOURNE
Child Forenames: John
Father's Forenames:
Mother's Forenames: Margaret
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating Minister:
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P138 in 1/4
Page No: 3
Parish_Chapel: English Bicknor
Soundex: B650

Simone x

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George's daughter Sarah Ward (born Marshall) married John Watkins in 1878. A witness at the wedding was Phoebe Ward
1871 census at Joyford

RG10; Piece: 5300; Folio: 65

Name Age
Alum Ward 1
Charles Ward 49
Charlotte Ward 44
Cornelius Ward 17
Elizabeth Ward 14
Phoebe Ward 13
Thomas Ward 6

Marriage for Charles Ward
Record_ID: 2251
Entry Number: 26
Year: 1846
Month: Aug
Day: 29
Groom Surname: WARD
Groom Forenames: Charles
Groom Age at Marriage: 24
Groom condition: Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession: Collier
Groom Residence: Christchurch
Groom Father's Surname: Burns
Groom Father's Forenames: John
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Labourer
Bride Surname: HALE
Bride Forenames: Charlotte
Bride Age at Marriage: 20
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession: [not stated]
Bride Residence: Christchurch
Bride Father's Surname: Hale
Bride Father's Forenames: George
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: Collier
Licence or Banns: [not stated]
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: Mark of Joseph Cooper
Witness 2: Mark of Lucy Cooper
Other witnesses: None
Officiating Minister: Thos R Garnsey
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Transcriber's Notes: -
Register Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page No: 13
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex Groom: W630
Soundex Bride: H400

So Charles has same father as George.
Can't find baptism that fits for Charles Ward, but there is one that fits for Charles Marshall, illegitimate
Christchurch 1/9/1822
no father named
mother Phoebe? Marshall (gobbledeygook in middle of the name on record)

Charles is Ward in 1851, whereas George is still Marshal

HO107; Piece: 2444; Folio: 328 at Joyford
Charles Ward 29 Labourer
Charlott Ward 24
Eliza Ward 2
George Ward 4

So now I know that George had a brother Charles and his mother was Phoebe? More than likely anyway.
So who is mysterious Mr Burns. Could it be a name they made up? But why not make up one the same as theirs and why change to something totally different!

Can't find a Phoebe Marshall that fits but
1871 census at Joyford
RG10; Piece: 5300; Folio: 64
Phoebe Burns 81 widow b Westbury
she died in 1882 age 91

So could this be Phoebe having married John Burns?

Yikes, going round in circles here, but think I'm getting somewhere!!

Simone x

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Hi again

On IGI

Phebe Marshal m John Barnes at Flaxley 14/11/1839

1861 census at Ruardean, Woodside?
RG9; Piece: 1754; Folio: 135
Phaby Barnes 69 widow
Benjamin Marshell 53
Charles Marshell 19
Eliza Wight 15
Levi Wilce 58

1851 census - Yippeee!!! Is this them?!
Name Age atJoyford
John Barnes 84 Labourer b 1767
Phebe Barnes 62
Thomas Barnes 21

There is a baptism for Pheby Marshal 3/12/1791 at Westbury on Trym to John Marshal and Hannah. Could this be the Westbury she means on the census returns as birthplace?

Baptism John Barnes
16976
Entry Number: 438
Year: 1767
Month: May
Day: 3
Parents Surname: BARNS
Child Forenames: John
Father's Forenames: Joseph
Mother's Forenames: Elizabeth
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating Minister:
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P125 IN 1/8
Page No:
Parish_Chapel: Dymock
Soundex: B652

So now that's sorted, just need to work out why the change to the name Ward for Charles and George? Charles has already changed his name before 1851 when John was still alive. Wonder if the family had a falling out?

Sorry this has all been so long winded, just had to get it down somewhere safe to sort it out!

Thanks

Simone x

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Well done - Byrne, Burn(s), Born, Barn(es) ...... what a winding road !

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks Slowhands:)

None of my other families around the country have been as complicated as my Forest families! They keep us interested don't they!

I can't find any of them in 1841. If Phoebe and John married at Flaxley in 1839, do you know what enumeration district this comes under? Thought they may still be there with George and Charles but can't find anyone anywhere!

Thanks

Simone x

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Westbury on Severn is where I would start looking

Name: John Barnes
Name: Phoebe Marshall
Year of Registration: 1839
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 657

Year: 1839
Month: Nov
Day: 14

Groom Surname: BARNES
Groom Forenames: John
Groom Age at Marriage: Full Age
Groom condition: Widower
Groom Rank or Profession: Labourer
Groom Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Groom Father's Surname: Barnes
Groom Father's Forenames: James
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Hawker

Bride Surname: MARSHALL
Bride Forenames: Phoebe
Bride Age at Marriage: Full Age
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession:
Bride Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Bride Father's Surname: Marshall
Bride Father's Forenames: John
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: Mason

Licence or Banns: Banns
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: Mark of James Roberts
Witness 2: Sarah Roberts
Other witnesses:
Officiating Minister: William Crawley
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda:
Transcriber's Notes:
Register Reference: P145 IN 1/11
Page No: 15
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks Slowhands :)

Just found 2 other Ward marriages with John Burns as father, so I'll work on them as well, might help me find them in 1841-

Record_ID: 2303
Entry Number: 78
Year: 1851
Month: Dec
Day: 29
Groom Surname: WARD
Groom Forenames: Thomas
Groom Age at Marriage: full
Groom condition: Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession: Woodcutter
Groom Residence: Joyford
Groom Father's Surname: Burns
Groom Father's Forenames: John
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Labourer
Bride Surname: HAWKINS
Bride Forenames: Esther
Bride Age at Marriage: full
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession: [not stated]
Bride Residence: Joyford
Bride Father's Surname: Hawkins
Bride Father's Forenames: Richard
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: Collier
Licence or Banns: Banns
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: Richard Webb
Witness 2: Mark of Elizabeth Webb
Other witnesses: None
Officiating Minister: Tho. O Tudor B.A. Curate
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Transcriber's Notes: -
Register Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page No: 39
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex Groom: W630
Soundex Bride: H252

also-

Record_ID: 2235
Entry Number: 10
Year: 1845
Month: Dec
Day: 19
Groom Surname: WEBB
Groom Forenames: Richard
Groom Age at Marriage: 23
Groom condition: Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession: Collier
Groom Residence: Christchurch
Groom Father's Surname: Webb
Groom Father's Forenames: James
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Collier
Bride Surname: WARD
Bride Forenames: Elizabeth
Bride Age at Marriage: 22
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession: Servant
Bride Residence: Christchurch
Bride Father's Surname: Burns
Bride Father's Forenames: John
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: Labourer
Licence or Banns: [not stated]
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: John Jones
Witness 2: Mark of Ann Ward
Other witnesses: None
Officiating Minister: Tho. R. Garnsey
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Transcriber's Notes: -
Register Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page No: 5
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex Groom: W100
Soundex Bride: W630

Baptism of Elizabeth

2977
Entry Number: 431
Year: 1825
Month: Feb
Day: 27
Parents Surname: MARSHALL
Child Forenames: Elizabeth
Father's Forenames:
Mother's Forenames: Phoebe
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Joyford
Occupation: Servant
Officiating Minister: H. Berkin
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda: base dtr. Of
Notes:
Register Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page No: 54
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: M624

Thanks again for your help

Simone x

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candidate for witness family etc

1841 Moorwood
Ann Ward abt 1797 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Ann Ward abt 1822 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Thomas Ward abt 1829 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

1851
Ann Ward abt 1803 How Caple, Herefordshire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Ward abt 1830 Forge Hill East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

Year: 1856
Month: Aug
Day: 3

Groom Surname: ADAMS
Groom Forenames: Richard
Groom Age at Marriage: full
Groom condition: Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession: Woodcutter
Groom Residence: Berry Hill
Groom Father's Surname: Adams
Groom Father's Forenames: Richard
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Laborer

Bride Surname: WARD
Bride Forenames: Ann
Bride Age at Marriage: full
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession: [not stated]
Bride Residence: Berry Hill
Bride Father's Surname: (Burns?)
Bride Father's Forenames: (John)
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: (Laborer)

Licence or Banns: Banns
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: John Jones
Witness 2: Mark of Hannah Jones
Other witnesses: None
Officiating Minister: W. H. Taylor
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Transcriber's Notes: Brides father deleted.
Register Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page No: 55
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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13070
Entry Number: 524
Year: 1826
Month: Jul
Day: 23
Parents Surname: MARSHALL
Child Forenames: Ann
Father's Forenames:
Mother's Forenames: Phoebe
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Joyford
Occupation: Servant
Officiating Minister: J. Herbert
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda: base dtr. Of
Notes:
Register Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page No: 66
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: M624

And so it goes on!!

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... and you can sense the attempts to cover tracks - Living Joyford, Baptised Drybrook ..

i think there are other WARDs baptised at Drybrook perhaps much later in life.

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster & Hereford Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Forest of Dean FHT Forum

1841 Census for George MARSHAL / WARD (General)

1841 Census for George MARSHAL / BYRNE

1841 Census for George MARSHAL / BYRNE

BURNS - Freeholder

Bourne - John 1798

Charles Ward son of John Burns, illigit to Phoebe Marshall

Phebe Marshall married John Barnes 1839

Barnes

1841 census - Flaxley? which Enumeration district?

1841 census - Flaxley? which Enumeration district?

More Ward marriages with John Burns as father!

Ann WARD Moorwood ( Copse / woods etc)

Ann WARD born Marshall to Phoebe

Ann WARD born Marshall to Phoebe