I am trying to research my grandfather (William Williams) and his father (Frederick Williams).

I have encountered two problems. The first is that, according to the 1901 Census, William was born about 1872 at Forest of Dean Drybrook but there is no entry in the parish records.

The second problem is that, according to the marriage certificate of William (Gloucester 1897), his fathers name and surname are Frederick Beard Williams. This may support the information from family members that a change of surname happened. My research on this branch of my family has reached a dead end.

Does anyone know anything about them or is this too vague?

1901 Hyde Lane Gloucester Gloucestershire
William Williams abt 1872 Forest of Dean Drybrook Head Ag Lab
Ellen Williams abt 1881 Cinderfold, Forest of Dean Wife
Rosa A Williams abt 1898 Gloucestershire, England Daughter
William Williams abt 1899 May hill Gloucestershire, England, Son

1891

Thanks for the reply.

The 1901 entry is the one I have but doesn't fit with the parish records.

That in itself isn't surprising given that people aren't always accurate in their memories. My problem is that if Frederick Williams did indeed change his name from Beard to Williams was it before or after William was born. Given that William was born in about 1872 then Frederick must date from the early 1850's or before. Also the with William and Ellen both showing the Forest of Dean as their birth places there is likely to be a strong link there for Frederick.

This is probably another one where "we" could be looking for a William Beard 1872 ish .

Maybe Beard was Frederick's Mothers surname , either at birth , or on marriage, perhaps she then remarries a Williams !

endless possibilities to consider

Name: Ellen Lander
Name: William Williams
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Gloucester (1837-1937)
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 544

1881 20 Woodside Rd Cinderford
Alfd. Lander 27
Diana Lander 27
Ellen Lander

1891 County Asylum Wootton St Mary Within Gloucestershire
Alfred Lander abt 1856 Painswick Gloucestershire, England Coal Miner Inmate

expect rest of family in East Dean, as Arthur born in Westbury on Severn reg dist in 1893

1901 3 East End Rd Gloucester
Alfred Lander 45
Dianha Lander 46
Amy Lander 2
Arthur Lander 7
Ida Lander 17

Sure this is the same Alfred Lander
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=2044#p2046

Possible marriage

Name: Dinah Green
Name: Alfred Lander
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 422

Dinah GREEN is the step daughter of George BEARD , daughter of Eliza A GREEN from Huntley
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=4685

so did Ellen LANDER bring the BEARD into BEARD WILLIAMS ?

The best I can find so far:-

The Beard surname is more often found on the East side of the Severn in Gloucestershire, however there is a family group from May Hill / Taynton / Glass House Hill.

in 1871 Drybrook a Beard/Williams household, by 1881 The Beards return to Taynton which would be very convenient for the later William Williams born "May Hill"

1871 Morse Rd ( Drybrook)
Amos Williams 32
Harriett Williams 30
Clara Williams 4
Emma Williams 7
George Williams 9
Samuel Williams 2
William Bogley 18
William Turner 75
Maria Turner 62
Edward Beard 26 from May Hill
Eliza Beard 21
Edwin Beard 7 months

1881 Ruardean Hill
Amos Williams 42
Harriet Williams 39
Elizabeth Williams 8
Fanny Williams 6
George Williams 19
Jane Williams 4
Mary Ann Williams 1
Samuel Williams 11

1881Taynton
Edwin Beard 30
Eliza Beard 26
Edwin Beard 10
Charles Beard
Elizabeth Beard 5
James Beard 3
William Beard 8

1891
Edwin Beard 42
Eliza Beard 37
Albert Beard 8
Charles Beard 10
Christy Anna Beard 2
Thomas Beard 12
Wallice Beard 6

1901 Taynton
Edwin Beard 53
Eliza Beard 44
Albert Beard 18
Arthur Beard 8
Frank Beard 5
Marion Beard 7
Wallace Beard 15
Walter Beard 9

Name: Edwin Beard
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Newent
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 364

Hello, (New member Donald Jellyman from Gloucester) very interested in your researches.

I am at present researching my mother's family Lander (Painswick) and its connection with the Gyde family also Painswick. My mother was the Amy Lander you mention in the Gloucester Census. Alfred Edwin Lander was my Grandfather - son of Edwin Lander and Mary Ann Young from Newnham. Ida Lander and Arthur Lander were my Aunt and Uncle and Ellen Williams (ne Lander) also my Aunt. Dinah Green from Huntley was my Grandmother and linked with the Beards.

Alfred Edwin had brothers William Edwin Gyde Lander, George Edwin Lander, and James Lander. The oldest daughter was Mary Ann Lander 9using her mother's christian names. The youngest daughter Jane died about a year after her birth . The mother Mary Ann died shortly after and Edwin remarried in 1871 Amy from London.

My Grandmother, Dinah Green died in 1928 in Gloucester a month before I was born but was alive to see my elder sister Kathleen who was born two years before me. Both she and my younger brother Richard are now in the United States.

My mother Amy died in 1966 in Gloucester. I have family connections in both the Cotswolds and the Forest of Dean. Bill (William Williams) was one of my cousins and was brought up lasrgely by Ellen. Ida Lander's youngest daughter Dorothy is still living in Gloucester in her 90's and knows quite a lot about her mother's elder sister Ellen Lander. Alfred Edwin Lander died in Gloucester in 1922. He and Dinah Green were happily married.

Regards

Donald ( Old Cryptian )

WILLIAM GYDE
------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
--------------------------------------
Marriages:
Spouse: KEZIA FREEMAN
Marriage: 16 APR 1818 Painswick, Gloucester, England
----------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.
----------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
M036211 1754 - 1830 0855631 Film 6911885 Film
Sheet: 00

1841
William Gyde abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Painswick Gloucestershire Tailor
Keziah Gyde abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Painswick Gloucestershire
Edwes London abt 1831 Gloucestershire, England Painswick Gloucestershire

1851 Golden Heart Inn
William Gyde abt 1796 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Head Painswick Gloucestershire
Ell Gyde abt 1796 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Wife Painswick Gloucestershire
Edwin Sander abt 1830 Daglingworth, Gloucestershire, England Nephew Painswick Gloucestershire

Name: Mary Ann Young
Name: Edwin Lander
Year of Registration: 1853
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Stroud
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 475

1861 Painswick Park
Edwin Lander abt 1829 Dunsburne, Gloucestershire, England Head Painswick Gloucestershire
Mary A Lander abt 1833 Newnham, Gloucestershire, England Wife Painswick Gloucestershire
Alfred Lander abt 1857 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Son Painswick Gloucestershire
Mary A Lander abt 1856 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Painswick Gloucestershire
William Lander abt 1855 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Son Painswick Gloucestershire

1871 Vicerage Lane
Mary Ann Lander abt 1856 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Head Painswick Gloucestershire
Albert Lander abt 1863 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Brother Painswick Gloucestershire
Alfred Lander abt 1857 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Brother Painswick Gloucestershire
George Lander abt 1859 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Brother Painswick Gloucestershire
James Lander abt 1860 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Brother Painswick Gloucestershire

Name: Lander, Edwin
Name: Trotman, Amy
Record Type: Marriages
Quarter: March
Year: 1871
District: Stroud
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 461

Edwin Lander abt 1828 Stratton, Gloucestershire, England Head Painswick Gloucestershire
Amy Lander abt 1840 London, Middlesex, England Wife Painswick Gloucestershire

Name: Dinah Green
Name: Alfred Lander
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 422

1881 20 Woodside Rd Cinderford
Alfd. Lander abt 1854 Painswick (East Dean), Gloucestershire, England Head Flaxley Gloucestershire
Diana Lander abt 1854 Huntley, Gloucestershire, England Wife Flaxley Gloucestershire
Ellen Lander Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Flaxley Gloucestershire

1891
Alfred Lander abt 1856 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Inmate Wootton St Mary Within Gloucestershire

1901
Alfred Lander abt 1856 Painswick, Gloucestershire, England Head Gloucester Gloucestershire
Dianha Lander abt 1855 Huntley, Gloucestershire, England Wife Gloucester Gloucestershire
Amy Lander abt 1899 Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Gloucester Gloucestershire
Arthur Lander abt 1894 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Son Gloucester Gloucestershire
Ida Lander abt 1884 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Gloucester Gloucestershire

Vivat schola Cryptiensis,
Vivat in perpetuum !

Tony

Another William Beard for you to consider, born 1871 :

1861 Census East Dean
William Beard 26 Coal Miner East Dean
Ellen 23 East Dean
Mary Elizabeth 3 East Dean
Eliza Ellen 1 mth East Dean

1871 Census East Dean 2599/80
William Beard 37 Iron Miner East Dean
Ellen 33 East Dean
Mary Elizabeth 13 East Dean
Amey 8 East Dean
Thomas 2 East Dean
***William 2 mths East Dean ***

1891 Census East Dean RG12/2005/145
William Beard 56 CM Cinderford
Ellen 58 Dressmaker Cinderford
William 19 CM Cinderford
Sidney G Grdson 10 Cinderford
dtr Mary &spouse George Trumop next door

1901 Census East Dean
William Beard 67 CMEast Dean
Ellen 63 Dress Maker East Dean

Note George Trump son in law next door

My connection with this William Beard 1835, (who you will see has a son William 1871)
is that his daughter Mary Elizabeth born 1859 Cinderford, married George Trump born 14.7.1853 Ruardean. George Trump's father was George Ellis Philip Knight Trump and to save you looking it up I am pasting in an extract from another posting, which further explains my connection :

"Elizabeth (Vaughan) born Ruardean 1823 married George Ellis Philip Knight Trump 15.11.1845 Ruardean. My connection here is that their son Thomas married Dora Read, daughter of William Read & Selina Marfell. Thomas Trump has an interesting history as he was jailed for "accidently" shooting his brother, I have the Cinderford Mercury press cuttings if anyone is interested. Thomas emigrated to America with his cousin Oliver Turner - see Ed Molls Bar picture.

Details of the "accidental shooting" have been passed to Dave Watkins for another "story"

I have been given so much helpful information by members of the forum and I am still trying to fit it into my family tree.

The names you mention on your entry refer to my relatives. Ellen Lander was my grandmother. My fathers name was Arthur Reginald Williams. Would you be able to shed any light on Ellen's husband William and his father and mother? It is my lack of knowledge of this branch of the family that persuaded me to join the forum.

Hello Tony,

If you will bear with me, I will get in touch with my cousin Dorothy (Dolly) and try to gain some information. She is Ida Lander's youngest child and the only one surviving. Ida was Dinah Green's second child after Ellen Lander was born. There was an age difference between the two and a considerable age difference between Ellen and her sister Amy (my mother).

Bear in mind that Dorothy is in her 90's and blind and memory does strange things. However she may, or may not, be able to shed some light here and there. I'll see what I can do and be in touch.

Regards. Donald.

Hello Tony,
I posted a reply to you earlier but something happened which prevented it from being forwarded - something to do with logging- in error although my browser was telling me that I was already logged in. I also posted the other day 4 photo images of Dinah Green (who would have been your Gt,Grandmother and her children born in Cinderford - Ida, Arthur,and also her youngest child Amy, my mother). Since these have not appeared anywhere, I can only assume that they have gone astray also !!
Anyway here is a shortened version of the message I posted to you.
I spoke with cousin Dorothy (Dolly) who told me, relative to the information in the 1901 Census, that the Hyde Lane address where William Williams and Ellen (Lander) Williams were situated she knew. In fact she was born there in 1914 at the outbreak of the first World War, which means that Ida Lander must have been there at the time naturally !! Dinah (Green) Lander and family would also have been there from time to time. She remembered William Williams and used to visit them at May Hill where among others William was born. She mentioned Rose, William,Ben, Reggie and Gladys.
She said that William was always called Harry.
She knew of Frederick Williams. With regard to the name Beard she said that one of the Williams had married his cousin who was a Beard. This would be reason for the linking of the two family names, with the maternal name being added, in the same way that Edwin Lander named his son William Edwin Gyde Lander in 1856. Bear in mind that there was already a connection with the Beard family through Dinah Green from Huntley whose mother Elizabeth Ann married George Beard. So it seems there might be a double connection between the Williams and Beard families. More research is needed.
Dolly also mentioned George Williams who she particularly liked. She seemed to suggest that the Williams who married his Beard cousin might have had two children - Martin and a girl whose name she couldn't remember.
Anyway, not bad for a woman in her mid-nineties and blind ! I did not wish to get her upset by concentrating too hard with past memories.
I hope some of this information might open new doors to get more information.
Nice to think that we both have Ellen Lander in common as my Aunt and your Grandmother, and even more so her mother Dinah (Beard?) Green.

Regards,
Donald.

Thanks Donald,

I am trying to work through the useful information you supplied. Having first hand accounts from someone who knew my grandparents is very interesting.

Regarding the reply you posted earlier, and the photos, if you are willing you can send them to me by email. I find any additional information adds to the overall picture. I can be contacted by clicking the email icon next to this post.

Thanks again for you help.

Tony