Hi all
An anybody help with a query from the ww1 as a family we have decided to visit great an great great uncles grave in northern France there are 12 of us going and it will be our uncles 100th anniversary on the 22nd March 2018 his name was Victor saunders he was killed in action on 22nd March 1918.living in Lydney with his parents. We have all the details on this an no where heis buried. I am looking to see if anyone else in our family tree also was killed in action. I have come up with a name of Arthur Saunders b1891 his mother was Sarah Saunders who I have in my family tree she also had a son James Saunders I am unable to find a marriage for her except a John Saunders an then on 1901 census widows in the name of Thorne.think I’m probably wrong with this but please could anyone help. Thank you very much. X

Hi Pauline,
we'll try and help as best we can, but it's difficult as we don't know all the other men in your family tree, so can only guess at who might have died in WW1.

I see this is one of your prior threads which is a guide
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=30507

I presume this PR is the Arthur you mention, it seems to fit but would be nice if you can please confirm this as you don't give a placename ?.

Record_ID: 295471
Entry_Number: 445
Year: 1891
Month: Sep
Day: 23
Parents_Surname: SAUNDERS
Child_Forenames: Arthur
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Queen Street
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: R.Maynard Turner
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 31st Aug[us]t 1891 [along bottom of entry]
Notes:
Register_Reference: 851113
Page_Number: 56
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: S536

Using Advanced Search we can find these Baptisms which appear to have the same parents, I think "John James" and "John" are one and the same, hopefully they agree with your findings ?. (The full PRs may be found in this site's database);

Year Surname Child Forenames. Parent's Names. Residence. Occupation. Parish Chapel
1883 SAUNDERS Albert Henry. John James Palmer & Sarah. Albert St[reet]. Sailor. Lydney
1884 SAUNDERS John. John James Palmer & Sarah. Albert St[reet]. Waterman .Lydney
1886 SAUNDERS Ann. John & Sarah. Albert St[reet]. Workman. Lydney
1888 SAUNDERS Charles. John & Sarah. Cross Hands. Railway Labourer. Lydney
1891 SAUNDERS Arthur. John & Sarah. Queen Street. Labourer. Lydney
1893 SAUNDERS Christina Gertrude. John & Sarah. Lydney. Lock man (Lydney Lock Lydney

Parent's marriage.

Record_ID: 154579
Entry_Number: 470
Year: 1880
Month: Dec
Day: 25
Grooms_Surname: SAUNDERS
Grooms_Forenames: John James Palmer
Grooms_Age: 23
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: mariner
Grooms_Residence: Newnham
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Saunders
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William Naylor
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: carpenter
Brides_Surname: BEARD
Brides_Forenames: Sarah
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lydney
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Beard
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Samuel
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: tinworker
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: John Palmer
Witness_2: Eliza Lane
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: TJ Weight curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P228 IN 1/13
Page_Number: 235
Parish_Chapel: Newnham
Soundex_Groom: S536
Soundex_Bride: B630

Sadly,

Record_ID: 202998
Entry_Number: 292
Year: 1896
Month: May
Day: 19
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forenames: John James Palmer
Residence: Lydney
Age_at_death: 39 y[ea]rs
Officiating_Minister: J.C.E.Besant
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: [Besant underlined]
Register_Reference: Lydney P209 IN 1/14
Page_No: 37
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: S536

Looking at the males (potential servicemen) in the above list of children, can find these marriages (the first appears to confirm John Palmer & John are same person);

Record_ID: 126085
Entry_Number: 111
Year: 1911
Month: Apr
Day: 29
Grooms_Surname: SAUNDERS
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age: 26
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Tinplate worker
Grooms_Residence: Lydney
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Saunders
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: SANDFORD
Brides_Forenames: Florence May
Brides_Age: 20
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lydney
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Sandford
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Albert
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Tinplate worker
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Albert Henry Sandford
Witness_2: Chrissie Saunders
Other_Witnesses: Percy Sandford
Officiating_Minister: H B Parker Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: Grooms father deceased
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/17
Page_Number: 56
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex_Groom: S536
Soundex_Bride: S531

Record_ID: 126445
Entry_Number: 222
Year: 1925
Month: Jun
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: SAUNDERS
Grooms_Forenames: Albert Henry
Grooms_Age: 41
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Tinplate Worker
Grooms_Residence: Lydney
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Saunders
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Dockman
Brides_Surname: REES
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth Margaret
Brides_Age: 30
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lydney
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Rees
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Charles
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Railway guard
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Frederick James Pennington
Witness_2: Violet Irene Rees
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: John C E Besant Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/18
Page_Number: 111
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex_Groom: S536
Soundex_Bride: R200

So clearly Albert survived the War, FreeBMD has;

Deaths Mar 1964
SAUNDERS ALBERT H 81 F.OF DEAN 7B 468

What about John b1884 and Charles b1888 ?

NOT certain yet, as not rare names locally, so need to trace bia Census' etc, but this looks very much like John b1884, so he clearly survived WW1;

Record_ID: 205580
Entry_Number: 473
Year: 1944
Month: Nov
Day: 16
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forenames: John
Residence: 39 Albert Street
Age_at_death: 60
Officiating_Minister: L P Jones Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/38
Page_No: 60
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: S536

Again it's NOT a rare name, but thus far cannot find a clear Burial locally for Charles b1888, either on FoD PRs or in FreeBMD.
Similarly cannot find his marriage, so maybe be also died during WW1 ?.

Sadly there are several Charles and C Saunders listed on CWGC site. This site appears to have been "improved" since I last visited it....
If Charles did die during the WW1 and is one of the men listed, if we're lucky his entry may be unambiguous - i.e it includes additional notes refering to his home address or parents.
https://www.cwgc.org/find

Using this site's WW1 Soldiers database, can find;

Record_ID: 4779
Year: _
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forename: Albert Henry
Rank: Private
Regiment: Somerset Light Infantry
Service_Number: _
Residence: Lydney
Notes_1: _
Notes_2: _
Newspaper: _
Date_Published: _
Image: _
Soundex: S536

Record_ID: 4781
Year: _
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forename: Arthur
Rank: Sergeant
Regiment: 8th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment
Service_Number: 13072(13972)
Residence: Lydney
Notes_1: Enlisted _August_1914 KIA 01_November_1916 Remembered or Buried in Thiepval Memorial, Pier and Face 5 A and 5 B
Notes_2: Wounded, September_1916
Newspaper: _
Date_Published: _
Image: _
Soundex: S536

The database lists other "Saunders" of "Lydney", don't know yet if they are related to your family Pauline.

??

http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/ww1-servicemen

---

Trying to check the family group is correct, these Census' from LDS / FamilySearch site show that it is;

Looks like mother Sarah remarried after losing husband John Saunders in 1896, altho I'm struggling to find a marriage;

1901 Census. Albert Street, Lydney (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Sarah Thorne Head F 40 Lydney, Gloucestershire
William Saunders Son M 19 TINPLATE COLD ROLLER. Lydney, Gloucestershire
John Saunders Son M 16 TINPLATE COLD ROLLER. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Charles Saunders Son M 12 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Arthur Saunders Son M 10 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Christina G Saunders Daughter F 7 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Annie Thorne Step Daughter F 14 Berkeley, Gloucestershire

1891 Census. Lydney, Gloucestershire, Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Sex AgeBirthplace
John Saunders Head M 34 Railway Labourer. Monmouthshire, England
Sarah Saunders Wife F 29 Gloucestershire, England
William Saunders Son M 9 Gloucestershire, England
Albert H Saunders Son M 7 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England
John Saunders Son M 6 Gloucestershire, England
Charles Saunders Son M 2 Gloucestershire, England

1911 Census. Queen Street, Lydney, Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Sex Birthplace
William Thorne Head M 55 GENERAL LABOURER. Thornbury Blos
Sarah Thorne Wife F 50 Lydney, Gloucestershire
William Saunders Stepson M 29 TIN PLATE WORKER TRIMMER. Lydney, Gloucestershire
John Saunders Stepson M 26 TIN PLATE WORKER BATCHER. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Arthur Saunders Stepson M 18 TIN PLATE WORKER LABOURER. Lydney, Gloucestershire

---

FreeBMD has;
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1900 (>99%)
Saunders Sarah Thornbury 6a 569
Thorne William Thornbury 6a 569

FoD PRs;

Record_ID: 204111
Entry_Number: 603
Year: 1916
Month: Sep
Day: 30
Surname: THORNE
Forenames: William
Residence: Lydney
Age_at_death: 60
Officiating_Minister: John C E Besant
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/37
Page_No: 76
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: T650

Record_ID: 205152
Entry_Number: 46
Year: 1937
Month: Nov
Day: 11
Surname: THORNE
Forenames: Sarah
Residence: 6 Jubilee Road
Age_at_death: 76
Officiating_Minister: L V Wraith Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/38
Page_No: 6
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: T650

In case you've not seen these prior posts, the work of the highly-skilled and very hard-working men at the Lydney Tinplate works has been discussed before, see this post and the links therein;
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=47872

Which reminds me that this was part of a thread discussing the existance, or not?, of a memorial dedicated to the Lydney Tinplaters of WW1.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=47871

It refers to an excellent webpage about the Lydney War Memorial, which includes much detail about the life and death of Arthur Saunders RIP. It also confirms that brother Albert also served, and the absence of Charles' name suggested he did not.
http://www.deanweb.info/war.html

HOWEVER, as I cannot find ANY clear (local) Marriage or Burial Records for Charles, in this site's PRs or on FreeBMD or GlosBMD, and I cannot find him in the 1911 Census, then I cannot be sure.

???

Three members of the family signed up:
Albert Henry Saunders
Charles Ivor Willis Saunders
Arthur Saunders.

Albert Henry Saunders survived the war but sadly Charles and Arthur did not.
This is from Commonwealth War Graves Commission website:

Gunner
SAUNDERS, CHARLES IVOR WILLIS
Service Number 42204
Died 06/09/1917
Aged 29
1st Bde.
Canadian Field Artillery
Son of John Saunders and Sarah Thorne of 14 Albert St, Lydney, England.
Buried at LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY
Location: Pas de Calais, France

Serjeant
SAUNDERS, ARTHUR
Service Number 13072
Died 01/11/1916
Aged 25
8th Bn.
Gloucestershire Regiment
M M
Son of Mrs. S. Thorne, of 31, Mount Pleasant, Tutnalls, Lydney, Glos.

You will see that Arthur was awarded the Military Medal.
More details on the following webpages:
http://www.deanweb.info/war.html
http://www.gloucesterrugbyheritage.org.uk/documents/Battle_of_the_Somme.pdf

Mike

Gunner
SAUNDERS, CHARLES IVOR WILLIS
Service Number 42204
Died 06/09/1917
Aged 29
1st Bde.
Canadian Field Artillery
Son of John Saunders and Sarah Thorne of 14 Albert St, Lydney, England.
Buried at LONGUENESSE (ST. OMER) SOUVENIR CEMETERY
Location: Pas de Calais, France

Mike

Hi Mike, thanks for that, really good results, and also for the Gloster RFC site which I hadn't seen before.

A few questions if I may ref Charles.

1. His baptism record etc that I found only gives him as Charles Saunders - any idea where and when he gained the extra names ?. Clearly this is "our" man from the notes, but seems odd - altho one of my ancesters also gained a second name during WW1 and for no obvious reason that I could see ?

2. Did you get this info direct from the CWGC site, or via Ancestry or somesuch ?. Asking as the modern look for all websites since Windows 8 seems to be big block format which I guess helps for tablets/smartphones etc, but as an oldfashioned pc user they seem a dumbed-down Playschool look and a less user-friendly approach - or is that just me ??. Anyhow, thats how the CWGC site presented to me, rather than finding the easily-read detailed list of possible men to scan thro, like in the old days, I now got lots of undetailed bigblock links about individuals, needing me to view separate web pages for each of them, which I'm afraid put me off searching them all on the offchance the notes would help, as I know most entries don't have those notes. Plus his "new" name and unlikely? regiment wouldn't have helped me find him very quickly.
I'm thinking of renewing my Ancestry subs after over a year's absence, does that site still present Servicemen's info in a more easily-read format ?.

Your thoughts would be appreciated, thanks, Jeff

Dear Jeff
Thank you so much for all the information and research you sent me. I am amazed at the work you have done. I am sorry I have been so long in replying to you but I have been trying to connect your information into my family tree. At the moment I am not getting very far but will keep trying I am sure there is a link somewhere with Albert Arthur and Charles as you would have relized there were a lot of Saunders living in Lydney and the family name of John was very popular and carried down the line of our ancestry. I do believe that all the Saunders of Lydney were related one way or another. I am trying to connect Albert Arthur and Charles to see if they were maybe cousins to my great uncle Victor John Saunders who was also died in WW1 on the 23rd of March 1918. Uncle Vic was the son of John Saunders and Ellen Mallard. Victor was the uncle of my late dad Dennis Victor Saunders.We have decided that we can still visit Charles and Arthur resting place to give our love and respect when we visit France. I will let me know the outcome of my reaseach. Again thank you so much.
My very best wishes to you.
Pauline

Dear Shepway
Thank you so much for this information. I am struggling at the moment to connect Arthur and Charles to my family tree but suspect they may be a cousin to my great uncle Victor who was the son of John Saunders and Ellen Mallard. Uncle Vic was the uncle of my late dad Dennis Victor and brother to my grandfather Hubert Saunders. Uncle Vic also died on the 23rd March 1918.
Thank you very much for the information you sent me
My best wishes
Pauline

Dear Pauline,
thanks so much for your kind words, it was my pleasure trying to help, especially given the WW1 background. And no you've not been a long time replying, far from it.
I'm not sure why I didn't think to focus more on Victor, hopefully we can put that right !.

I see he is also on the Lydney Memorial, which helpfully tells us;

"Victor John SAUNDERS, Cpl 201167 13th Gloucestershire Regt. 29 year old youngest son of Victor & Helen Saunders of 7 Hill Street, Lydney. Tinplate worker 1911. Enlisted Bristol 27 January 1915. Died 22/3/1918. Buried near Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension."
http://www.deanweb.info/war.html

Here's his entry in this site's WW1 Soldiers database;

Record_ID: 4794
Year: _
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forename: Victor John
Rank: Private (A/corporal)
Regiment: 4th (Reserve) Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment 13th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment
Service_Number: 201167 3844 (CWGC No)
Residence: Lydney
Notes_1: Enlisted 27 January 1915 KIA 22 March_1918 Remembered or Buried in PERONNE COMMUNAL Cemetery EXTENSION (IV H 19) 'Buried near this spot'
Notes_2: Wounded, May_1916
Newspaper: _
Date_Published: _
Image: _
Soundex: S536

I now see you mentioned Victor and his immediate family in this prior post from a few years back, and their Census records etc were covered by Slowhands, so I won't repost that info except to say that according to FamilySearch both Victor and his older brother Hubert were also tinplate workers, no real surprise there of course.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=30508

Slowhands' posted the full Census info for their parents John & Helen/Ellen right back until the 1881, unluckily for us they married just a few weeks after the 1871.
He also gave John's prior Census records etc showing he was born abt March 1846 to Charles & Hannah Saunders, both of Lydney. The marriage record shows John's wife Helen/Ellen was born abt 1852 to parents William & possibly? Elizabeth Mallard, again of Lydney area. Searching this FoD site's PRs database gives;

Record_ID: 291954
Entry_Number: 646
Year: 1852
Month: Apr
Day: 12
Parents_Surname: MALLARD
Child_Forenames: Ellen
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Primrose Lane
Occupation: Hammerman
Officiating_Minister: Charles Taylor
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 81
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: M463

So it looks like the witness Elizabeth Mallard at Ellen's wedding was maybe her sister ?

Record_ID: 291827
Entry_Number: 518
Year: 1850
Month: Aug
Day: 4
Parents_Surname: MALLARD
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Newherne
Occupation: Forgeman
Officiating_Minister: Charles Taylor
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 65
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: M463

And yet again this forum sees a lady who may have been Baptised Helen, or Ellen, but hard to tell which was her parent's preference given the usual Dean dialect problem of dropped "h"s.

See database to find PRs for their siblings Mary Ann and Charles.

Can also find;

Record_ID: 125114
Entry_Number: 134
Year: 1848
Month: Oct
Day: 7
Grooms_Surname: MALLARD
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age: Of full age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Forgeman
Grooms_Residence: Newherne
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: MALLARD
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: ROBERTS
Brides_Forenames: Mary
Brides_Age: Of full age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: Servant
Brides_Residence: Lidney Vicarage
Brides_Fathers_Surname: ROBERTS
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Charles Henry Wooles
Witness_2: Lucy Yaff[?]
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Charles Taylor
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/15
Page_Number: 67
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex_Groom: M463
Soundex_Bride: R163

1851 Lydney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Mallard Head M 22 Iron forge man. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Mary Mallard Wife F 32 Foundhope, Herefordshire
Mary Ann Mallard Daughter F 1 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Mallard Daughter F 0 Lydney, Gloucestershire
James Williams Visitor M 23 Sawyer. Lydney, Gloucestershire

1861 Albert Street, Lydney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Mallard Head M 35 Forgeman. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Mary Mallard Wife F 42 Fownhope, Herefordshire
Mary Ann Mallard Daughter F 11 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Mallard Daughter F 10 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Hellen Mallard Daughter F 8 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Charles Mallard Son M 5 Lydney, Gloucestershire

1871 Lydney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Mallard Head M 43 Innkeeper. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Mary Mallard Wife F 52 Foundhope, Herefordshire
Mary A Mallard Daughter F 21 Barmaid. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Elizbeth Mallard Daughter F 20 Barmaid. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Helen Mallard Daughter F 20 Barmaid. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Charles Mallard Son M 15 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Albert W Mallard Son M 0 Lydney, Gloucestershire
William Diamond Lodger M 30 Birmingham, Warwickshire
Maria Diamond Wife F 25 Crediton, Devonshire
Henry Diamond Son M 5 Crediton, Devonshire
Clara Diamond Daughter F Chalford, Gloucestershire
Thomas Long Lodger M 45 Ne?

William Mallard is listed as being at the Swan in the 1879 Kelly's Directory for Lydney.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/resources/kelly-s-directory-1879/63-lydn...

This pub/hotel in Newerne Street is one of Lydney's oldest, this detailed history includes mention of William; http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/AllGlosPubsDatabase/RAIGConnection.php?pubid1=1421
https://www.sungreen.co.uk/Lydney/Newerne_St_3_views.html

---

SO that was the easy bit, now to try and find the link, if any, between Victor and the other brave Saunders boys.

More to follow .....

Record_ID: 295471
Entry_Number: 445
Year: 1891
Month: Sep
Day: 23
Parents_Surname: SAUNDERS
Child_Forenames: Arthur
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Queen Street
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: R.Maynard Turner
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 31st Aug[us]t 1891 [along bottom of entry]
Notes:
Register_Reference: 851113
Page_Number: 56
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: S536

Using Advanced Search we can find these Baptisms which appear to have the same parents, I think "John James" and "John" are one and the same, hopefully they agree with your findings ?. (The full PRs may be found in this site's database);

Year Surname Child Forenames. Parent's Names. Residence. Occupation. Parish Chapel
1883 SAUNDERS Albert Henry. John James Palmer & Sarah. Albert St[reet]. Sailor. Lydney
1884 SAUNDERS John. John James Palmer & Sarah. Albert St[reet]. Waterman .Lydney
1886 SAUNDERS Ann. John & Sarah. Albert St[reet]. Workman. Lydney
1888 SAUNDERS Charles. John & Sarah. Cross Hands. Railway Labourer. Lydney
1891 SAUNDERS Arthur. John & Sarah. Queen Street. Labourer. Lydney
1893 SAUNDERS Christina Gertrude. John & Sarah. Lydney. Lock man (Lydney Lock Lydney

Parent's marriage.

Record_ID: 154579
Entry_Number: 470
Year: 1880
Month: Dec
Day: 25
Grooms_Surname: SAUNDERS
Grooms_Forenames: John James Palmer
Grooms_Age: 23
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: mariner
Grooms_Residence: Newnham
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Saunders
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William Naylor
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: carpenter
Brides_Surname: BEARD
Brides_Forenames: Sarah
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lydney
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Beard
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Samuel
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: tinworker
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: John Palmer
Witness_2: Eliza Lane
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: TJ Weight curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P228 IN 1/13
Page_Number: 235
Parish_Chapel: Newnham
Soundex_Groom: S536
Soundex_Bride: B630

Sadly,

Record_ID: 202998
Entry_Number: 292
Year: 1896
Month: May
Day: 19
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forenames: John James Palmer
Residence: Lydney
Age_at_death: 39 y[ea]rs
Officiating_Minister: J.C.E.Besant
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: [Besant underlined]
Register_Reference: Lydney P209 IN 1/14
Page_No: 37
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: S536

Looking at the males (potential servicemen) in the above list of children, can find these marriages (the first appears to confirm John Palmer & John are same person);

----------------------------

I've belatedly found this prior thread abt John James Palmer Saunders, born abt 1856, probably of Newport Monmouthshire,
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=36844

As well as the Census and Burial info posted above, it also adds the following earlier data for him, which also mentions sons Albert & John;

1881
Sarah Saunders abt 1861 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Wife (Head) (Head) Lydney, Gloucestershire
John at sea - Ocean Child
John Saunders abt 1855 Newnham, Gloucestershire, England Vessels, Somerset

1891
John Saunders abt 1857 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Head Lydney, Gloucestershire Railway Labourer
Sarah Saunders abt 1862 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Wife Lydney, Gloucestershire
William Saunders abt 1882 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire
Albert H Saunders abt 1884 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire
John Saunders abt 1885 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire
Charles Saunders abt 1889 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire

Another prior thread gives details of John JP Saunders' death in 1896;
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=44422

thanks to MPG, we know the newspaper stated
" middle-aged man John SAUNDERS, living in the neighbourhood of Lydney Dock, died very suddenly on Friday whilst fishing with a lave net."

The subsequent Inquest stated he died due to "atheromatous disease of the aortic valve". This is a heart complaint, which I think is usually associated with old age, yet John was just 39 !. I wonder if it was brought-on by being stood waist-deep in the very cold water.
see http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/inquests

This short film describes men who are still fishing in the Severn using traditional lave nets. They mention how especially-bad the cold water was before modern waders became available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNHN_VhUPMQ

The film location is Black Rock, near Portskewett on the Welsh side of the river near the "new" Severn Crossing. I can't help thinking this placename is linked with the unlikely? sounding Black Rock Farm, Bream Road, Lydney.
??

Here another branch of the Saunders family were living thro' the 1800s, as per this prior post which helpfully adds more CEnsus info to another part of the Saunders family.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=10751

To that post and it's several sets of useful Census data I can enlarge upon the 1871 Census using FamilySearch, which confirms Hannah was now widowed so her spouse Charles had died sometime before, and again he wasn't particularly old;

1871 Black Rock Farm, Bream Rd, Lydney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Saunders Head M 37 Gardener. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Hannah Saunders Mother F 60 Widowed. Berkeley, Gloucestershire
John Saunders abt 1847 Brother M 24 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Fanny Saunders Sister F 22 Lydney, Gloucestershire
James Saunders Nephew M 12 Lydney, Gloucestershire

Record_ID: 200694
Entry_Number: 100
Year: 1858
Month: Jun
Day: 19
Surname: SAUNDERS
Forenames: Charles
Residence: Newherne
Age_at_death: 56 y[ear]s
Officiating_Minister: Robert Greer
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P209 IN 1/12
Page_No: 13
Parish_Chapel: Lydney
Soundex: S536

Which all fits nicely with this part of the prior post,

1851
Charles Saunders abt 1805 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Head Lydney, Gloucestershire
Hanah Saunders abt 1811 Berkeley, Gloucestershire, England Wife Lydney, Gloucestershire
Charles Saunders abt 1836 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Saunders abt 1838 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Lydney, Gloucestershire
Fanny Saunders abt 1848 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Lydney, Gloucestershire
Hannah Saunders abt 1843 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Lydney, Gloucestershire
John Saunders abt 1846 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire
Robert Saunders abt 1839 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire
Sarah Saunders abt 1841 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Lydney, Gloucestershire
William Saunders abt 1831 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Son Lydney, Gloucestershire

I'm hoping all this data will help us plot a tree to show how the various WW1 Saunders soldiers are related. This is one instance where it could be very helpful to be able to look on Ancestry for any public trees which may guide us.

???

Black Rock farm, on the Bream road between Bream and Lydney, lies on top of the Colford High Delf coal seam. There are three other seams nearby; Trenchard, Whittington and Yorkley. They all out-crop within the area so would be a probable reason for the name of the farm.

There are no seams anywhere near Black Rock on the Severn but there is several out-crops of rock in the area and I think the name refers to one of those. There's another out-crop a bit further along called Black Bedwins. I suspect the 'black' in the name comes from the fact these rocks get submerged and are covered in seaweed. Have a look at this picture and you'll see what I mean. https://goo.gl/maps/9hVBa9TNRNu

So I don't think there's any connection between the names.

Thankyou kind sir, all very interesting indeed, and yes I'm very much inclined to agree with you now wrt the names not being connected, ah well,

I can see a place called Blackrock (one word) marked on the old OS maps, which isn't surprising as the British History site states

"North of Lydney town there were a few outlying dwellings, the earliest of them probably the Holms, west of the Bream road. In 1558 it was the centre of a freehold estate belonging to the Hyett family, which sold it to the Winters in 1600, and the farmhouse was rebuilt in the 19th century. There was a farmhouse at Blackrock on the Bream road further north by 1600."

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp46-84

This superb old photo might be the Farm house
https://www.sungreen.co.uk/bream_glos/bream_house.html

atb J.

I'm hoping all this data will help us plot a tree to show how the various WW1 Saunders soldiers are related. This is one instance where it could be very helpful to be able to look on Ancestry for any public trees which may guide us.

???

Hi all, just wanted to "bump" this thread back up the forum, in the hope we can maybe find all the various SAUNDERS boys from Lydney who bravely served in WW1. As my earlier post show, this extended family has been visited a few times over the years. However trying to tie the various threads and families together, or not, has proved rather tricky for me as I'm unable to give enough time to plot the various family trees and hopefully link them together. Critically I do not currently have access to Ancestry so cannot consult any Public Trees they may have which could give fast and useful guidance.

The thread's originator Pauline posted

Hi all
An anybody help with a query from the ww1 as a family we have decided to visit great an great great uncles grave in northern France there are 12 of us going and it will be our uncles 100th anniversary on the 22nd March 2018 his name was Victor saunders he was killed in action on 22nd March 1918.living in Lydney with his parents. We have all the details on this an no where heis buried. I am looking to see if anyone else in our family tree also was killed in action.
Thank you very much. X

I'm hoping this query may be helped by anyone who's currently subscribed to Ancestry (so not me), as I can't help thinking it may have public trees that may give some clues to link the various Saunders families together. Please, if anyone can help with this, I'm sure Pauline would be grateful before her family visits France in a few weeks. If you think you can help, please take care to read the rest of this thread, as a lot of the groundwork research has been done already.

Many thanks, Jeff.

Hi Jeff, Pauline Anne,

I’ve been following the saunders of Lydney for more than 30 years!! I, like you once thought that they were all connected but if they are then it’s prior to 1700. I have Robert Saunders and Jane Davies which are the first recorded at St Mary’s Lydney (the ancestors of Victor John). We have another family in Blakeney which originated in Portsmouth. We have the family of John James Palmer Saunders who are in Littledean with no link yet back to Lydney ( this is the family of Albert, Arthur and Charles). I even have a family in Oldcroft in 1720 that I can’t link back to Robert in Lydney.
There are Saunders / Sanders all around Awre / Goodrich / Chepstow from 1500 so they are here to be found. Unfortunately I can’t find the link yet.
I have 2 Robert Saunders one married Christian keddick and died in 1770 in Blakeney, on his gravestone it says “of Hayfield “?? And one died 1768 in Lydney married Jane Davies. Both born around 1720. But I can only find one birth record in Awre....but which one is it for??
If I can take Robert back another generation that may be the key to linking the “TinPlate Gang”.

Martin

Hi Martin,
sorry for my late reply, but thanks very much indeed for your post. The Saunders are not in my tree or family, my efforts were solely trying to help Pauline Anne, who by now has presumably visited the Saunders graves in France, I do hope her trip went well.

I must admit I assumed, incorrectly as it stands !, that the various Saunders branches on the southern Lydney edge of the FoD would be quite closely linked. In a way it's pleasing to find my apparently dismal failure to link them in recent times was not surprising, thanks to your reply I clearly had a lot more work to do. And as to which of your Roberts to choose between, then I wish you well with that.

Many thanks again, Jeff.

Hi Jeff and all
Owing to my husbands illness I have not been in touch to give you an update on our visit to our great uncle and our great great uncle Victor Saunders resting place. We visited his grave along with the graves of other brave men from the Gloucester regiment they were all laid side by side the day we visited was the 100th anniversary of there deaths. We also visited graves of all the other braver service men that lost their lives in the Great War. It was a very emotional time. We done a service of our own with grandchildren nieces and nephews that each said a short passage that put all our thought into words. We have tried to get a photo of uncle Victor to complete our tour but up to now have had no luck my son has contacted the Gloucesters Miltary museum but they are unable to find one. Has anyone an suggestion please where I could next try. We are visiting Lydney Cross on remberance Sunday to show our respect to all servicemen especially the brave men of Lydney and the Gloucester regimentt. A picture of him would b wonderful to see as we lay our wreath of Poppy’s. I have put a program of our tour that we followed this was put together by my nephew who also drove us there and back. It is very interesting reading if anyone would lik a full copy please let me know.

Thursday 22nd March 2018

Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension
Military cemetery in Peronne, France
Rues des Platanes 80200 Peronne, France

Somme 1916 Museum
History museum in Albert, Somme, France
Rue Anicet Godwin 80300 Albert, France

Lochnagar mine
D20, 80300 Ovillers-la-Boisselle, France
Mametz Wood Memorial (WW1) (Welsh)

The Tank Corps Memorial
Route de Bapaume,D929, 80300 Pozieres, France

Friday 23rd March 2018

Tyne Cot
Vijfwegestraat,8090 Zonnebeke, Belgium

Gloucester Regiment Memorial, Menin Road
Menenstraat 41, 8980 Geluved, Belgium

Sanctuary Wood Museum (Hill 62)
Canadalaan 26, B-8902 Zillebeke, Belgium

Hill 60
Zwarteleenstraat40, 8902 Ieper, Belgium
Menenstraat, 8900 Ieper, Belgium

Menin Gate
Menenstraat, 8900 Iper, Belgium

Best Wishes and thank you.
Pauline

Hi Pauline and family,
so sorry to hear your husband's been ill, we hope he's on the mend now.

Thanks so much for taking the time to update us. It's great you all had a good trip to the various sites, wow ! what an itinerary your nephew put together. I've visited some of those places, but not in a dedicated WW1 trip, but as a part of our drive home from our annual summer holidays in southern or western France. Just visiting one in a day can be so emotional, so I can well imagine such a tour being both interesting and very humbling and at times intense for you all. Especially well-done for taking and involving the little ones. We read so much negative press these days regarding some young adults not remembering or respecting the brave boys and girls who gave them the freedom they take for granted, it's great that yours will wear their poppies with real family pride.

I do hope you find a photo of your Uncle Victor. I can't remember, did we discuss searching for him in the old local newspapers, during WW1 they often carried small photos of individual soldiers when they were posted as missing ?

Thanks again, best wishes to you and yours, including Victor and his mates, from all of us on the forum and website.

Thank you Jeff for you lovely e-mail it certainly was a very emotional time especially for my son who is a Militay man himself also my nephew who work closely with the younger generation who are cadets. I am going to contact sun green to see if he as any I nformation for me. I have followed his site and as uncle Vic was a tin plate worker before he joined up there may be a chance he can find something. He has such an amazing site he sent me a picture a couple of years ago of our dear late father Dennis Victor Saunders son of Hubert Saunders and Geneva Saunders nee Allen. It was a picture of my dear dad who played Rugby for Lydney school grammer Amazing .
Thank you to you all for your good wishes.
Best wishes to you all
Pauline

Hi Pauline,
thanks for your kind words. I'm pleased you have family members in the forces, and wish them well in long careers helping to keep us all safe.
Yes the Sungreen site is excellent, that's certainly a great photo of your Dad, it's here for those who are interested.
https://www.sungreen.co.uk/Lydney-LGS/LGS-1stXV-1935.html

I must say I think you're lucky finding that one, as you know photos of any kind are quite rare for our ancestors unless we were quite well-off, especially ones as clear as this one, it was clearly taken by a professional photographer.

As hinted earlier I've tried searching for Victor Saunders in the old newspapers, using the British Newspaper Archive website. I don't currently have a subscription but their free search still gives a clue as to what may be found, I've found a few brief mentions of his death but I don't think there's a photo linked to it - the usual format at the time meant that they would often include a photo of a servicemen who had been killed at the head of an article, yet sadly the accompanying text would also list a great many more names, such were the horrific daily casualty rates.

If you are interested in finding these or any other articles, the BNA site allows newcomers a few free downloads before they start charging, so before downloading anything I recommend a good methodical search first. To find the following entries I used the filters to focus on just Gloucestershire and the year 1918, but didn't include his full name as often too much info confuses the BNA search engine.

The articles I found, there may be more, include this text;

"Mr. and Mrs. John Saunders. Hill-street. Lydney, have received news that their son. Corporal Victor John Saunders, was killed in action in France on March 19th. The deceased ...."
Published: Saturday 06 April 1918
Newspaper: Gloucester Journal

"THE MILITARY MEDAL
... been hit in both legs, but the damage was not great. The gallant Captain added that three other Lydney men in his own Company were victims — Pte. Victor Saunders (29), single, ..."
Published: Saturday 06 April 1918
Newspaper: Gloucestershire Chronicle

I hope this link takes you to my findings on the BNA site. https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1918-01-01/1918-12-31?basicsea...

The old newspapers were great at reporting sport, I've traced several generations of my mother's family thro' their cricketing exploits for Longhope village right back into the 1860s, so you may well be able to find references to your rugby-playing ancestors if you look long and hard enough. Subscriptions for the BNA site are not expensive if you take out short ones, and if you've thoroughly searched the site before taking out the subscription, making notes of what you found and where, during that short subscription you can still download literally hundreds of newspaper pages if you so wish. When you first sign-up to search the site, and just give them your name and email address, to get your free downloads, they may well send you special offers in the future, in the past I've gained a week or even a month's full subscription for just one pound ! However please note the Forest's main local newspaper, the DF Mercury and sister the Lydney Observer, are not available on any online sites, but can be viewed on microfiche at Cinderford library.