Sorry, its WILLIAMS again !!

I have William WILLIAMS born St B 1810 son of Richard (the Hoop-maker) and Hannah WILLIAMS. William 1810 I had married to Mary Ann KEAR, her father possibly James KEAR.

if correct they had 5 or 6 children ( a Mary Sophia not confirmed) one of which was my Gt Grandfather Thomas WILLIAMS who married Elizabeth SELBY in Hewelsfield in 1875.

I always had issues tying William Williams 1810 down as so many of them and records not complete with occupations etc and another researcher has thrown doubt on my findings. I have spent another 3 years re-researching William WILLIAMS 1810 to confirm his marriage is correct, where of what his occupation was and which or if his headstone is in St B chuchyard all with no certainty.

Once again elimination of a few William WILLIAMS 1810 to around 1880 would help. He may have been the older groom at Lindors (his son Thomas certainly worked there, lived in Mork etc) or he may have just been a labourer etc.

Any help would be appreciated

Hello,

Do you know of, Thomas Williams, died 1938. According to his burial record in Hewelsfield, he was born 1779.

He was married to Rebecca Blunt. According to Thomas's will, Rebecca had a daughter who was married to William Worgan of Brockwear. Her name was Anne.

Thank you for any light you can shed....

Steve

Hi Steve,
I think you've made a typo error there, looks like Thomas died in 1838 not 1938 ?.

That said, I'm unable to find a Burial PR in this site's database for him IN Hewelsfield in 1838. Similarly cannot find an obvious Baptism for him in 1779, altho there are a few near misses.

Please can you clarify your enquiry, thanks, Jeff.

---

Trying to add some clarity, here's his marriage to Rebecca Blunt;

Record ID 96290
Entry Number 63
Year 1827
Month Feb.
Day 28
Grooms Surname WILLIAMS
Grooms Forenames Thomas
Grooms Age [not
Groom Condition Batchelor[si
Grooms Occupation [not stated]
Grooms Residence Hewelsfield
Grooms Fathers Surname [not stated]
Grooms Fathers Forenames [not stated]
Grooms Fathers Occupation [not stated]
Brides Surname BLUNT
Brides Forenames Rebecca
Brides Age [not
Brides Condition Spinster
Brides Occupation [not stated]
Brides Residence Hewelsfield
Brides Fathers Surname [not stated]
Brides Fathers Forenames [not stated]
Brides Fathers Occupation [not stated]
Licence or Banns Banns
Date of Banns [not stated]
Signature or Mark Both mark
Witness 1 Mark of James Hopkins
Witness 2 [illegible] Palmer
Other Witnesses
Officiating Minister Walter Henry HillCurate
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes [1827] in left margin.
Register Reference P175 IN 1/5
Page Number 21
Parish Chapel Hewelsfield
Soundex Groom W452
Soundex Bride B453

Struggling to find either of them in this general area in later census.

I think this is the Baptism you believe is his;

Record_ID: 196796
Entry_Number:
Year: 1796
Month: Jun
Day: 26
Parents_Surname: WILLIAMS
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Thomas Edmunds Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P175 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 30
Parish_Chapel: Hewelsfield
Soundex: W452

Cannot yet find a Baptism, or any other records, for daughter Anne.

???

Good evening Jeff,

Thanks for your response. You are quite correct that I had made a 'typo'
Thomas Williams died 1838 according to this burial record.

Name
Thomas Williams
Age
59
Birth Year
abt 1779
Burial Date
15 Jan 1838
Burial Place
St Briavels, Gloucestershire, England
Parish as it Appears
St Briavels
Search Photos
St Briavels, Gloucestershire, England
Household Members
Name
Age
Name
Thomas Williams

I have seen the original burial record and the 'age' 59 yrs, is very clear.

I have also seen those other candidates for his baptism records. There are a number of 1779 records, but from outside of our area. Of course, I realise that Thomas could have come from a different area, but this will be hard to prove.

Because of the 1779 year of birth on the burial record, I discounted the 1796 baptism, giving him the parents of, James and Mary, from memory.

I was surprised to find his will. It appears that Thomas owned a couple of properties and some land in Hewelsfield. As I mentioned earlier, he left £5 to his wife's daughter, Anne who was the wife of William Wargan of Brockswear.

Are you linked to this family in any way? Thanks again for your thoughts...

Much appreciated, Steve

Good evening Steve,
thanks for your prompt and full reply.
Thanks too for confirming the date was 1838 and for posting the actual Burial Record. I note that this was actually in St Briavels - the reason I posted the 1796 one was purely because it was in Hewelsfield, which is what you told us in your original post. Here's the Record transcription from this site's database, I see now that you meant he lived in and quite possibly died in Hewelsfield, but not buried there.

Record_ID: 333975
Entry_Number: 422
Year: 1838
Month: Jan
Day: 15
Surname: WILLIAMS
Forenames: Thomas
Residence: Hewelsfield
Age_at_death: 59 years
Officiating_Minister: J Gosseliu[?] Smythies Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P278 IN 1/19
Page_No: 53
Parish_Chapel: St Briavels
Soundex: W452

I have no reason to doubt the record clearly states 59 years. However, even in Burials during the late 20th Century we see cases where the true age of the deceased is actually a few years different from that which their family, friends, etc believed to be true, and so reported to the church Minister for the Burial Record. There were also some cases where Ministers just mis-heard the reported age or just acccidentally wrote down an incorrect age. Now go back to 1838, when most rural people's lives were not governed by time or date as they are now, indeed few had regular access to clocks or calendars, or regular reminders such as newspapers, and maybe couldn't even read or write down what their birth year was, so it was quite likely that in older age they don't know their exact age, or that the reported age at death might be incorrect; especially as in those days the Forest accent was far stronger and more difficult for the Minister to understand before recording what they thought they heard. Even if a person did keep good memory or records of their actual age, we still see plenty of examples on the Victorian Censuses where people deliberately quoted incorrect ages, either wishing to be "younger" when in their late 20s, or older when they were elderly; there was no government, DHSS, NHS etc databases to compare against after all. So yes, I agree that your 1838 Burial states aged "59", but I suggest this is still only a useful approximate guide and nothing more.

Yes it's a great that you've found Thomas' Will, an interesting and very useful document. If that survived I wonder if there are any other records relating to him which have also survived ?. Was the Will in the local Archives, is there more waiting to be found ??

No, I'm afraid I'm not in any way linked to the family. I'm just a fellow member of this great forum who's trying to help out with your query.

I've re-searched this site's PRs and also FamilySearch site records for him, but no real success. As you'll know it's a very common name in the area, there are several possibles born in and around 1779.

You mention his daughter and husband. Have you fully researched their lives, are there any clues there as to Thomas's origins ?.

I've tried a quick search for him within the BNA old newspapers site but without luck, ditto William Wargan of Brockweir.

Hopefully we can move this on a little further in the next few days, but at the moment I'm unsure how.

???
ttfn Jeff.

Jeff, I think the William Wargan referred to was a mistype for William Worgan. It was expressed as Worgan earlier in the thread.

There is at least one marriage connection between the Hopkins family (my family) and the Worgan family (and both families had members who emigrated to NZ), and I seem to recall a connection with Williams as well but can't bring it to mind at the moment. I note that James Hopkins was a witness in one of the documents recorded in this thread.

It would be hardly surprising that these three families are connected, given their residence in Brockweir, Hewelsfield, and St Briavels!

Hi JH,
yes you're correct, after spotting my typo error some hours after posting it I did consider editing my spelling of Worgan. However rest assured I did search Worgan and not Wargan in the BNA site, in fact I've just repeated both to be certain, the end results were much the same and I found nothing that seemed even slightly relevant. I didn't edit the post because I suspected there may be relevant records that also spelt the name that way, and suspected that might be why Steve had made the same typo. In the past this forum's seen similar Worgan/Wargen etc spelling variations when discussing the same family, just as sometimes Hopkin and Hopkins are seen, but thanks for mentioning it.

Re your recollection of a link between Hopkins & Williams, I've searched this forum's prior posts and the first hit was this, perhaps the same one you recall and which seems a good match for this thread too, but as you say with these families being such prominent names in the locality it's not surprise there are links, I'm sure there will be others too;

https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=50029

which mentions this PR.

Record_ID: 96170
Entry_Number: 57
Year: 1784
Month: Nov
Day: 4
Grooms_Surname: WILLIAMS
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: Batchelor[sic]
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Hewelsfield
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: HOPKIN
Brides_Forenames: Philippia
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Hewelsfield
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: 1784 Oct 10 17 & 24
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Warren Hopkin
Witness_2: Mark Hopkin
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Thomas Edmunds Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P175 IN 1/3
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Hewelsfield
Soundex_Groom: W452
Soundex_Bride: H125

However it must be remembered the database has 32PRs for "William Williams Hewelsfield", including 21 Baptisms !

Thanks, J.