Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Sophia ROBERTSmarriage

Sophia ROBERTSmarriage (reply)

slowhands — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:14:59 +0000

Year: 1825
Month: Mar
Day: 27
Grooms_Surname: HARRIS
Grooms_Forenames: Richard
Grooms_Age: [not stated]
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: [not stated]
Grooms_Residence: extraparochially
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: ROBERTS
Brides_Forenames: Sophia
Brides_Age: [not stated]
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: extraparochially
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of William Harris
Witness_2: Mark of Harriet Harris
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: T. D. Fosbroke Min[iste]r
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AO19/6
Page_Number: 55
Parish_Chapel: Walford

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

andyhillier — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:06:53 +0000

Are you able to tell me the source for the family name ROBERTS (for Sophia, wife of Richard Harris). Thanks.

Isaac COLLINS b. abt 1858 in Lydbrook (reply)

andyhillier — Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:32:34 +0000

Well ANYTHING further up the tree would be great! I am descended through his daughter, Sarah - who had a VERY complicated set of marital relations. A nightmare! If you have scans of any of those certificates would it possible for you to send me copies? It would be much appreciated. I have a copy of Prudence's death certificate if you need one. My address is E-mail address deleted by admin
Do not include your e-mail address in a post

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

jchardy — Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:04:46 +0000

Sorry for the delay in replying -- I have more time on weekends. James Collins actually died on June 2, 1870. I have a copy of his death certificate. The inquest was held on June 7, 1870 and concluded that he was "crushed by the buffer of a coal tram which accidentally ran back on the incline plane in the Trafalgar Colliery and knocked the deceased down." The same wording is used on his death certificate. I don't know where the wording you quote came from.
James Collins was my great grandfather via his son Isaac Collins. I also have a copy of a memorial card "In affectionate remembrance of James Collins." Perhaps it's the same as the memorial you mention. I have lots of information on the Collins family. James was born in West Hanney, Berkshire (father Jonathan Collins; mother Martha Brakespear) on 4 June 1821. I also have the 1848 certificate of marriage between James Collins and Prudence Harris. What else would you like to know?

Inquest of James COLLINS (reply)

admin — Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:20:58 +0000

Being new to this site and not knowing what information is here, can you tell me where you found the above information on James Collins' death?

You will find details of the Inquest of James COLLINS in our Forest of Dean Inquests 1868-1905 section.
http://www.http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/resources/inquests

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

andyhillier — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:04:30 +0000

If you have more information on this Collins family I'd love to have it!!

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

andyhillier — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:50:53 +0000

Collins James
date of accident 07/06/1870
Age 46
Inclineman
Trafalgar Colliery
In attaching a loaded tram to a set the trigger slipped on a sleeper and the set backed and crushed him to death.

Being new to this site and not knowing what information is here, can you tell me where you found the above information on James Collins' death? I knew he'd been killed in a pit accident of some kind, but not the nature of it. (Incidentally, I have a photo of a memorial to him which gives the date of his death as 2nd June as opposed to 7th in this record - not that that's of huge significance!)

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

lindawatkins501 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 04:56:12 +0000

thanks for the information. Sorry I have no information about Sophias parents. I will let you know if I have.

Thanks Linda

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

jchardy — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:18:55 +0000

Briefly, Sophia's father James Collins (1821-1870) was born in East Hanney, Berkshire and moved to the Forest of Dean, before he was married, in the 1850's. His father was Jonathan Collins (1770-1853) and his mother was Martha Brakespear (or Breakspear) (1782-1838). Jonathan's father was also named Jonathan (1731-?) and his mother was Elizabeth ?. His grandfather was also Jonathan (1696-?).
Sophia's mother Prudence Harris (1827-1916) was born in Lydbrook. Her parents were Richard Harris (1799-?) and Sophia Roberts (1804-1836). It looks as though Richard was "base born" as they not-so-delicately phrased it in those days, his mother being Hannah Harris. I can't be sure of that though and haven't been able to get any farther back with that branch.
Let me know if you can fill in any blanks.

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

lindawatkins501 — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:23:54 +0000

Thanks for replying so soon. There were three other children born to sophia and george, William (b 1896 d1939) this is my grandfather, I never knew much about him. Martha (b1899) and charlotte (b1900). I have some information on all these children except charlotte. In the 1911 census it seems her name might have been alice, I cannot find out any more informaiton about her. I woul be grateful for any information about the collins and harris side of the family.

Thanks again.

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

jchardy — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:20:24 +0000

Yes, according to my records Isaac had a sister Sophia who was born in July 1860 and married George Traherne in 1879. She died in 1901. I have recorded five children: George (b 1880), Lydia (b 1883), James (b 1886), Isaac (b 1888) and Sydney (b 1890). There may well be more; since this family is not in my "direct" line I haven't followed it beyond 1890.
Isaac's (and Sophia's) parents were James Collins and Prudence (nee Harris). If you care, I have lots more information tracing the Collins family back several more generations. The Harris family has proved to be more difficult but I can go back at least one generation for it as well.

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

lindawatkins501 — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 06:23:34 +0000

There seems to be 2 James Collins with daughter named Sophia, Do you know if Sophia married George Treherne in 1879. I am tracing the Treherne family from Lydbrook in Gloucester , I have some information on George and Sophias children but nothing about Charlotte born in 1900. I am new to this website. and need help. thanks

Isaac COLLINS b. abt 1858 in Lydbrook (reply)

lindawatkins501 — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 06:13:41 +0000

Do you know if Sophia, sister of the above married George Treherne in 1979. I am tracing the Treherne family. Thank you.

Civil registration 1837 - 1874 (reply)

jchardy — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 12:43:34 +0000

Many thanks slowhands. That's very valuable information. It puts a whole new light on the few other missing 19th century milestones in my ancestry that have been rankling with me.

Civil registration 1837 - 1874 (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 11:40:18 +0000

Civil registration of births, marriages and deaths, in England and Wales, started on 1 July 1837 introduced after legislation in 1836, the Marriage Act of 1836 (Act of 6 & 7 William IV, chapter 85) and the Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1836 (Act of 6 & 7 William IV, Chapter 86).

1837-1874

The country was divided into Registration Districts, each under the control of a Superintendent Registrar. Registrars were appointed to issue certificates for births and deaths which occurred in their area. Their duty was to actively collect information and they were paid according to their success. There was no penalty for not registering a birth or death, so records from this time are incomplete, possibly a third of the population is missing from these early records. When the local registers became full they were sent to the Superintendent Registrar for safe keeping. The Superintendent Registrar produced local indexes of events and four times a year sent copies to the Registrar General in London.

Births

Parents were not bound to give birth information unless requested by the Registrar. Some were not truthful about the date of birth, as they had to pay if the registration was more than 6 weeks after the birth. Some parents thought baptism was a legal alternative.

Marriages

From 1837, marriages could take place in a local register office, instead of a church. A new type of marriage register was introduced for all marriage ceremonies. The Church of England, Jews and Quakers could conduct and register their own marriage ceremonies. Two registers were completed, one for the church the other for the state. Other denominations (Methodists, Baptists, Unitarians etc) had to apply for their chapels to be licensed to conduct marriages and could only conduct a ceremony there if, in addition to the minister, a Registrar was also present to record the events in a Register Office marriage register. This did not change until 1898.

From 1874

The Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1874 (Act of 37 & 38 Victoria, Chapter 88) made registration compulsory. The onus for registration of a birth was passed to the parents, or the occupier of the house where a birth took place. The birth had to be registered within 42 days or a £2.00 fine was imposed. It still remained a common belief that baptism registered the birth, also if the parents ran out of time they would either lie about the date of birth or simply not register and hope not to get caught.

The responsibility for recording a death was placed on a relation of the deceased. The registration had to be supported by a certificate signed by a doctor, and the death had to be registered within 5 days.

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

jchardy — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 09:01:24 +0000

Thanks slowhands: your speed is impressive. Although all the material you assembled in a few hours turns out to be in my files already, it has taken me several years of research to assemble those files! I was particularly interested in your statement that birth registration was not compulsory in England until 1874. I didn't know that. Was it also non-compulsory for marriages and deaths as well?
You're right that the Collins family was non-conformist. I have a card preserved from the funeral of James Collins, Isaac's father, who was crushed by a coal tram in the Trafalgar Colliery in 1870. It states that he was a "Primitive Methodist" and Sunday School teacher. Nevertheless, of his 10 children, the births of at least seven were officially registered and, of the six for whom I have both birth and baptismal information (the latter from Lydbrook), their baptisms all took place within 1-3 weeks of their births.
Thus, it seems very likely that Isaac Collins was born on 28 Dec 1857, exactly one year before the date he himself believed. Given his family's record with most of their other children, I had therefore been surprised not to find his birth formally registered for that date. Now that I realize that registration was not compulsory, I suppose that the demands of feeding multiple children on a miner's salary could well have pushed birth registration well down the list of family priorities. Presumably I should give up trying to find a birth record that may simply not exist.

James Collins 1822 East Hanney (reply)

m p griffiths — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 00:52:54 +0000

LAND OWNERSHIP - also in the Hanney booklet, but of interest to Researchers

"The 19th century was one of significant changes in the pattern of land ownership in England. Much of the common land of England's villages were enclosed during the early years of the Century. East Hanney was enclosed in 1803 but West Hanney was not enclosed until 1839-40. The procedure generally involved mapping the village fields and recording ownership and occupation of the different parcels of land identified. The land was then re-apportioned amongst those people who had established their ownership, consolidating awkward and disjointed small holdings into more workable parcels. The effect was to make more efficient farming possible. However, the Enclosure process is also blamed for excluding much of the peasantry from common grazing, making their living that much harder to eke out.'

The Berkshire Records Office - has a fantastic site

BRO New Landscapes

and if you follow through the various sections, you'll come across a map of East Hanney -Search by Place Name or Map - OS Grid 9 - You'll need to first click on the bottom right square to find the map of EH (THEN you click on the map to enlarge, the Map is dated 1803 with an area of land written with the name William COLLINS.

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

m p griffiths — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:01:53 +0000

Re: James COLLINS 1822 - East HANNEY -

I do have x Grandparents from East/West Hanney - it was a very poor Agricultural Community - and my ancestors dates/ages vary on census returns and birth/marriages certificates.

HANNEY HISTORY GROUP produces a booklet called - Late Victorian Hanney - an Agricultural Community - and the section of HANNEY SCHOOL shows just how uneducated the people were. So remembering/writing down dates would have been a real task.

'Richard BELCHER in his will of 1713 gave lands in East Hanney the rent of which was to be used to buy bread for the poor and to pay for the teaching of reading to the children of the poor in East and West Hanney.

In 1819 7 pounds of the Annual Rental of 26 pounds was being used to teach eleven boys and girls to read.

The Trustees of the Charity always seemed more inclined to spend the rental income on bread for the poor rather than their education.'

Isaac COLLINS bap 1858 in Lydbrook -Prior Thread (reply)

slowhands — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 19:55:39 +0000

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=3603

It may just be as simple as born Dec 1857 Baptised Jan 1858

Year 1858
Month Jan
Day 17
Parents Surname COLLINS
Child Forenames Isaac
Fathers Forenames James
Mothers Forenames Prudence
Mothers Surname
Residence Lydbrook
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister Temple Hamilton Chase
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 20811
Page Number 22
Parish Chapel Lydbrook

JONATHAN COLLINS
----------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 04 NOV 1770 West Hanney, Berkshire, England

---------------------------
Parents:
Father: JONATHAN COLLINS
Mother: ELIZ.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for locality listed in the record.
The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
P020241 1716 - 1812 0088485 Film 1235408 Film
Sheet: 00

1841 East Hanney Village
Johnathan Collins abt 1771 Berkshire, England West Hanney, Berkshire Ag Lab
William Collins abt 1796 Berkshire, England West Hanney, Berkshire
Grace Collins abt 1821 Berkshire, England West Hanney, Berkshire
James Collins abt 1823 Berkshire, England West Hanney, Berkshire

Year: 1848
Month: Dec
Day: 3
Grooms_Surname: COLLINS
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Lydbrook West Dean
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Collins
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Jonathan
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: HARRIS
Brides_Forenames: Prudence
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Lydbrook
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Harris
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: [not stated]
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Mark of Richard Harris
Witness_2: Mark of Susan Harris
Other_Witnesses: None
Officiating_Minister: James Banks M.A. Perpet. Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Notes: -
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 24
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch

1851
James Collins abt 1822 East Hanney, Berkshire, England Head Woolhope, Herefordshire
Prudence Collins abt 1827 Sidbrook, Gloucestershire, England Wife Woolhope, Herefordshire
Sarah Collins abt 1849 Sidbrook, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Woolhope, Herefordshire

Collins James
12/07/1868
12
Collier
Trafalgar
He concealed some gunpowder and it exploded in his pocket burning him so severely that he died next day.

1861 Upper Lydbrook -Ausley ( probably Horselea / Horsley)
James Collins abt 1822 N Head East Dean Gloucestershire
Rebecca Collins abt 1822 N Wife East Dean Gloucestershire
Sarah A Collins abt 1849 Ledbury, Worcestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
James Collins abt 1856 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Martha Collins abt 1853 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire
Richard Collins abt 1852 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
James Collins abt 1857 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean Gloucestershire
Sophia Collins abt 1859 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean Gloucestershire

Collins James
date of accident 07/06/1870
Age 46
Inclineman
Trafalgar Colliery
In attaching a loaded tram to a set the trigger slipped on a sleeper and the set backed and crushed him to death.

1871 The Boarts, Lydbrook
Prudence Collins abt 1826 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Esther Ann Collins abt 1865 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Isaac Collins abt 1859 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
James Collins abt 1870 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Martha Collins abt 1854 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Richard Collins abt 1863 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia Collins abt 1861 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire

1881
Isaac Collins abt 1858 Lydbrook Lodger Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

If we look at Richard 1863 , we find a "gap" between his Baptism and his "official" registration, we also get confirmation that we are dealing with a "non conformist" family. So a missing BMD for Isaac in this time frame should not be a surprise. From 1837 registration was voluntary, from 1874 it became mandatory.

Name: Richard Collins
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Monmouth (1837-1939)
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 24

Year 1865
Month Mar
Day 24
Parents Surname COLLINS
Child Forenames Richard
Fathers Forenames James
Mothers Forenames Prudence
Mothers Surname
Residence Worralhill
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister Rt Wall
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes The year appears to be 1863
Register Reference D2598 3/3
Page Number 28
Parish Chapel West Dean Methodist Circuit

Isaac COLLINS b. abt 1858 in Lydbrook

jchardy — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:27:57 +0000

Throughout his life my grandfather, Isaac COLLINS, listed his birth place as Lydbrook and the date as 28 Dec 1858. That's the date he wrote in the family bible and, after emigrating to Canada in 1882, that's the date he gave on the Canadian census forms in 1901 and 1911. Nevertheless, I could never locate any birth record for him for that date.
About a year ago, when the parish records for Lydbrook appeared on this site, I thought my problem was solved: Isaac's baptism was recorded on 17 Jan 1858, nearly a year before the birth date he used. I supposed that his parents had misremembered his birth date, perhaps by a year. However, I still can't find any record of his birth though I've searched through the official handwritten lists of registered Collins births (available at Ancestry.co) for several years before 17 Jan 1858, and tried automatic searches for every variation on the name Collins (or Isaac) that I can think of.
Does anyone have any ideas on new avenues I can explore? Given the date and the "remote" location, is it plausible that Isaac's parents never bothered to register his birth even though they obviously bothered to baptise him?