Bekah Wilce

I don't know if the Collenses were in some way related to the Grubbses."

A look at the original image shows them to be COLLINS, the index showing Amy as "Mary Collens"
John Watkins Wilce's sister Amey married Richard William COLLIER in 1868, Kensington. They appear with daughter Amy in the England 1881 census, then reappear in 1900 and 1910 US censuses, correctly indexed/named. Amy, mother became a doctor and Amy daughter, a music teacher.

Work in progress!
Regards
Bob Jenkins

thanks for the update - it all seems to be dovetailling together :-)

Thanks very much for bringing my attention to those censuses. See my other message for an explanation of how John Watkins Wilce ended up back in Oxford in 1868 and 1869 after shipping off to New York in 1867.

Thanks,

Bekah

Yes, thanks, I think that's this one:

Name: John Wilce
Home in 1880: Milwaukee, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Birthplace: England
Relation to Head of Household: Self (Head)
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Father's birthplace: England
Mother's birthplace: England
Occupation: Stone Contractor
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Male
Household Members:
Name Age
John Wilce 39
Elizabeth Wilce 36
Lillie Wilce 7
Annie Wilce 3
Julia Mc Donugh 38

I even found out their address there during that time! My family has really come through with more information lately.

Thanks,

Bekah

I believe we should make John Watkins WILCE the starting point. Now can you tell us more of how you obtained his birth year and the date he arrived in the US? Who came with John to the US? Was he married and did he have any children at that time?

I have his exact birth date only from the notes of my grandfather James MacLynn Wilce Sr.'s phone conversation with his cousin Bob Desmond, a professor at UC Berkeley, on 5 Jul 1981 in Ruardean. Bob gave his birth date as 13 Aug 1841. FreeBMD does confirm that he was born between July and September of 1841:

Name: John Watkins Wilce
Year of Registration: 1841
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 26
Page: 201

He went to the U.S. twice, according to Bob's research: alone in 1867, to New York, where he worked as a stonecutter for a year before returning to Oxford in 1868 and marrying Elizabeth Grubb 26 Mar 1869 at New Road Baptist Church in Oxford. They returned to the U.S. together in April 1869, this time to Chicago, where JWW worked as a stonecutter again. Elizabeth, however, had relatives in Milwaukee, so she talked him into moving there (Bob Desmond says) in 1873. He remained there until his death in 1929.

Confirmation of these details given by Bob Desmond, as much as I could find, is as follows:

You found a record of Thos. Wilce arriving on the Queen to New York in 1867, correct? I see the passenger listing you mean, on 10 Apr. I can't find a passenger list for The Queen on 28 Apr 1867, but the clipping I have, from the New York Times 29 Apr 1867, p. 8, says "J. Wilce" arrived on that steamship from Liverpool on 28 April, along with Mrs. Auch, Mrs. Buckell and daughter, Mr. Bridgall, Mr. Moreley, Mr. Shaw, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Barber, Mr. Stevens, Messrs. J. and Henry Allaway, E. Burke, and 723 in the steerage.

Censuses of 1900 and 1910 in Milwaukee also list JWW's arrival date as 1867.

I don't have a confirmation of his return to England in 1868, but FreeBMD does list his marriage sometime between January and March of 1869:

Name: John Wilce
Year of Registration: 1869
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Oxford
County: Berkshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 746 (click to see others on page)

I also can't find a confirmation of their return together to the States in Apr 1869.

I do have copies of the certificates wherein he renounced his allegiance to Victoria Queen of Great Britain and Ireland and declared his intent to become a citizen of the U.S., sworn 1 Feb 1870 before the clerk of the Milwaukee County Circuit Court, and of his petition for citizenship, sworn 19 Feb 1892 before the Milwaukee County Municipal Court, both stating that he "emigrated to the United States, and landed at the Port of New York on or about the month of April in the year eighteen hundred and sixty seven." In the latter, interestingly, he had to swear "that he ha[d] never borne any hereditary title, or been of any of the orders of nobility in the kingdom whence he came or elsewhere."

I believe they must have stayed for some time with Elizabeth's relatives in Milwaukee before moving to Chicago, as the 1870 census shows them in Milwaukee on 16 Jul:

Name: John Wilce
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Age in 1870: 29
Birthplace: England
Home in 1870: Milwaukee Ward 4, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Race: White
Gender: Male
Post Office: Milwaukee
Household Members:
Name Age
John Wilce 29
Elizabeth Wilce 27
Richard Collens 25
Mary Collens 30
Amy Collens 1

I don't know if the Collenses were in some way related to the Grubbses.

Although they were by this point older by the standard of the times, they did not have their first child until 1871 (Elizabeth Wilce, b. 1871, d. 1872, no record yet). Their second child, Lillian Amy Wilce, was born 22 Dec 1872 in Illinois, according to her death record in California:

Name: Lillian Amy Desmond
[Lillian Amy Wilce]
Social Security #: 0
Sex: FEMALE
Birth Date: 22 Dec 1872
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 21 Jun 1959
Death Place: Alameda
Mother's Maiden Name: Grubb
Father's Surname: Wilce

So they must have spent some time in Illinois, at least.

Elizabeth died due to complications of childbirth, I believe, as there was an unnamed child born and died 3 Jan 1884:

Birth Record Details
Last Name: Wilce
First Name: Unnamed Female
Day: 03
Month: January
Year: 1884
County: Milwaukee
Reel: 0153
Record: 002406

Death Record Details
Last Name: Wilce
First Name:
Day: 03
Month: January
Year: 1884
County: Milwaukee
Reel: 061
Volume: 04
Page: 0013
Image: 0340
Index Vol: 02
Sequence #: 419102;

and she died 6 Jan 1844 in Milwaukee:

Death Record Details
Last Name: Wilce
First Name: Mrs Elizabeth
Day: 06
Month: January
Year: 1884
County: Milwaukee
Reel: 061
Volume: 04
Page: 0013
Image: 0340
Index Vol: 02
Sequence #: 419103

I could continue (other children of John & Elizabeth, second marriage to Rosetta, birth of my great-grandfather, etc.) but think I'll spare you all!

Thanks for your help, and for encouraging me to get all the facts straight. My family has also been very helpful, and I've received packages of certificates, clippings and notes from two cousins in the last few months.

Best,

Bekah

Elizabeth WILCE dies in Milwaukee 1884 (?)
Mrs Elizabeth Wilce dd mm 1884 Milwaukee ( Ancestry)

believed to marry an

Name: Elizabeth Grubb
Year of Registration: 1862
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Witney
County: Berkshire, Gloucestershire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 735

or

Name: John Wilce
Name: Elizabeth Grubb
Year of Registration: 1869
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Oxford
County: Berkshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 746

this "challenges" the arrival in New York in 1867 , except this is a Thomas not John WILCE

who is "probably"

1861
Mary Grubb abt 1804 Oxfordshire, England Head Oxford St Peter Le Bailey, Oxfordshire
Isaac Grubb Junr. abt 1837 Oxfordshire, England Son Oxford St Peter Le Bailey, Oxfordshire
Robert Grubb abt 1841 Oxfordshire, England Son Oxford St Peter Le Bailey, Oxfordshire
Elizabeth Grubb abt 1844 Oxfordshire, England Daughter Oxford St Peter Le Bailey, Oxfordshire

1851
Mary Grubb abt 1804 Oxford, Oxfordshire, England Head Oxford St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Willm Grubb abt 1831 Oxford, Oxfordshire, England Son Oxford St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Isaac Grubb abt 1837 Oxford, Oxfordshire, England Son Oxford St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Robert Grubb abt 1842 Oxford, Oxfordshire, England Son Oxford St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Elizth Grubb abt 1845 Oxford, Oxfordshire, England Daughter Oxford St Ebbe, Oxfordshire

Name: Elizabeth Grubb
Year of Registration: 1843
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Oxford
County: Berkshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 16
Page: 97

1841 Church St
Thomas Grubb abt 1801 Oxfordshire, England St Ebbe, Oxfordshire Carpenter
Mary Ann Grubb abt 1806 Oxfordshire, England St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Sarah Grubb abt 1826 Oxfordshire, England St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
William H Govett abt 1831 Oxfordshire, England St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Isaac H Govett abt 1836 Oxfordshire, England St Ebbe, Oxfordshire
Robert Jas Govett abt 1840 Oxfordshire, England St Ebbe, Oxfordshire

On the Familysearch.org site under the Advanced search menu, sub menu pilot site there is a John Wilce listed on the 1880 US census at Milwaukee, age is 39 and birth place is given as England.

Pete

Year: 1836
Month: Dec
Day: 18
Grooms_Surname: WILCE
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age: [not
Groom_Condition: [not stated]
Grooms_Occupation: [not stated]
Grooms_Residence: of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St Br
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Surname: WATKINS
Brides_Forenames: Ann
Brides_Age: [not
Brides_Condition: [not stated]
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St Br
Brides_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated]
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Mark of George Harper
Witness_2: Mark of Hester Harper
Other_Witnesses: Tho[ma]s Lewis
Officiating_Minister: John Hardy Perpetual Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: both of the Extraparochial part of the hundred of St Briavels
Notes: transd [illegible initials] written in left margin
Register_Reference: AG52/5
Page_Number: 19
Parish_Chapel: Lea

1841
Thos Wilce abt 1816 Gloucestershire, England Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Ann Wilce abt 1820 Gloucestershire, England Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Amey Wilce abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Ruardean, Gloucestershire
neighbours to Charlotte LEWIS the future Mrs WILCE

Name: John Watkins Wilce
Year of Registration: 1841
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 26
Page: 201

death of ann (watkins), his mother
Name: Ann Wilce
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 26
Page: 219

Name:Charlotte Lewis
Name: Thomas Wilce
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Gloucester (1837-1937)
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 416

1851
Thomas Wilce abt 1814 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Head Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Wilce abt 1828 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Fanny Wilce abt 1840 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ruardean, Gloucestershire
John Wilce abt 1842 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Wilce abt 1844 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Wilce abt 1844 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Wilce abt 1850 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Ann Grindle abt 1833 English Bicknor, Gloucestershire, England Servant Ruardean, Gloucestershire

1861
John Wild abt 1842 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Lodger Oxford St Ebbe, Oxfordshire

Ancestry has a New York arrival as John W Wilce ( sorry I do not have a full US subscription)

Apr 1867 Castlegarden has a Thomas WILCE via Liverpool into New York. on "The Queen"

1870
John Wilce city, Milwaukee, info abt 1841

1880
John Wilce Milwaukee, Milwaukee, WI abt 1841 England
married (?)
Elizabeth Wilce 36
Lillie Wilce 7
Annie Wilce 3

Milwaukee, Wisconsin Directory, 1889-90 Ancestry has 2 John WILCE entry's

1890 missing records

1900
John Wilce name city, Milwaukee, Wisconsin

1910
John W Wilce name city, Milwaukee, info abt 1842

looks like it should be John Watkins WILCE !

Died 1 Jul 1929 Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
◦Was driving a horse and buggy filled with stones for his building work, and his horse was struck by lighting and died

---

Bekah

What you have posted could be correct but with all the speculative details which were posted in the previous thread it is difficult to make an assement.

As I mentioned in my previous post if you could let us know what you know to be fact we could then start afresh working backwards.

In looking through the details you have posted, your great great grandfather John Watkins WILCE b. 1841, emigrated to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US, in 1867.

I believe we should make John Watkins WILCE the starting point. Now can you tell us more of how you obtained his birth year and the date he arrived in the US? Who came with John to the US? Was he married and did he have any children at that time?