Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

pat — Sat, 28 May 2016 09:58:25 +0000

Hi Catherine

My name is Trisha and I work as part of Hidden-Heritage - a local family research business.
We can be found at www.hidden-heritage.co.uk

I would be happy to try and help you with your Gloucestershire Harris research.

If you would like to contact me about possible research, you can contact me through our website.

I look forward to hearing from you

Best wishes

Trisha

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Fri, 27 May 2016 20:52:27 +0000

Thanks so much, this is a great starting point.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

admin — Fri, 27 May 2016 07:55:30 +0000

It is not our policy to recommend or otherwise. This webpage may be of help to you:
http://gfhs.org.uk/gloucestershire-indexes/0professional-researchers/
and like GFHS we are not responsible for any contracted researcher you use.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Thu, 26 May 2016 22:06:58 +0000

Hi,

Regardless of a gypsy connection or not could you still recommend someone that could offer the services of hands on research tracing John Harris' ancestry.

Cheers
Catherine

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

admin — Thu, 26 May 2016 09:11:29 +0000

This is a specialist area and we would suggest looking at two websites devoted to Romany/Gypsy ancestry. Here are the links which can also be found on our Links pages:
Gypsy Genealogy
Romany & Traveller Family History Society

Admin

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Thu, 26 May 2016 03:50:27 +0000

Hi Jeff,

I am really keen to delve deeper into the ancestry of John Harris (view original thread), as I am in New Zealand it is difficult to get hands on with my research, can you recommend someone to me who could research John's ancestry for me and find out if he indeed has gypsy heritage, I am happy to pay for this service, I look forward to your reply.

Cheers

Catherine Norris
NEW ZEALAND

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

mehaines82 — Mon, 18 Apr 2016 12:13:08 +0000

Jefff thank you again in pointing me in the correct direction very informative. Realize it is out of area but in case any one else is looking up the family James Harris ab 1838/9 Tipton.I believe his wives were Elizabeth Done and Eliza Jane (Elizabeth) Atkins its the Atkins who were farmers.
Melissa

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

Jefff — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:08:33 +0000

You're very welcome Melissa, I found it very interesting hence enjoyable.
Yes you're right Ann is another difficult one; as per your earlier post I suspect the canals played a large part in their lives, perhaps for generations. Sadly, if they did have gipsy roots, they may possibly have deliberately kept that background quiet in census's etc, sometimes this was done to help them fit in better with "normal" society, which was quite anti-gypsy as you probably know. Tracey Emin found this with her Hodgkins roots on "Who do you think you are", if you've not seen it and are in the UK it's still available (just!) on the BBC iPlayer. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0161hmn

Re James' wife's family, that line seems to be outside the bounds of this website and forum so I cannot dwell too much. However, and I may well be wrong, when I revisit Ancestry re James b1838, it suggests his wife is Elizabeth Haines who's father William was a miner in Dudley, living near other miners and ironworkers, despite being born in rural Ludlow, so possibly? not the farmers you mention.

Finally, ref "Charlemont", to me this sounded more like a Loire chateau than the West Bromwich I know, so I had to look it up ! Again you've probably already seen this history of that area including many local family names of old, if you've not then it's a recommended website for this type of historical enquiry across the whole UK.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/staffs/vol17/pp20-27

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

mehaines82 — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:31:09 +0000

Thank you Jefff I had assumed the job Pringler was incorrect but could not puzzle it out I'd also had trouble finding out much about the Gospel Oak Iron works and what you've posted is so interesting.
Ann Harris is very troubling she may not have even been born in Staffordshire and if they were travelers she could have been born anywhere and may not have stayed in the area.
I also have a lot of farmers and Ag Laborers Im actually trying to find out more about James Harris' wife's family who farmed in Charlemont West Bromwich.
Regards Melissa

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

mehaines82 — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:20:48 +0000

Hi Catherine, I'm still wondering if I’m looking at the same John and Elizabeth as you. My family had James' Will (no mention of parents though) and on James' second marriage in 1870 his father was John Harris Fireman.(which I took as a watchman), which I thought fitted with the census record. Also on Catharine's birth Cert. Father John is Forge man which also seemed to fit the census about the same time. My family also appear to have been in the Gospel Oak area of Tipton since at least 1841. (Thomas was born ab 1843)
I’ve had a look at the people you have mentioned and they seem to be from the Sedgley/Ruiton/Upper Gornal area of Dudley. This would put our families on opposite sides of Dudley. It could be that Thomas moved however he always puts Sedgley. I’ve only done a quick research on your family but couldn't find another Elizabeth and John in the area, I came across the following Census Records however that would mean that Thomas' parents would be Thomas and Nancy so I’m not sure and I’m still having difficulties tracing Thomas 1843 Tipton though he may have been born 1844. The West Midlands BMD site shows Thomas Harris 1843 Sedgley and Thomas Harris 1844 Tipton. www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk/ I find this site useful to try and pin point people as Sedgley is in Dudley and Tipton is now in Sandwell yet when looking online both are registered as Dudley. Looking forward to hearing from you again. Melissa

1841 - Ruiton Sedgley Staffordshire

Thomas Harris 1810 Staffordshire
Nancy Harris 1806 "
John Harris 1834 "
William Harris 1836 "
Hannah Harris 1837 "
Joseph Harris 1840 "

1851 -Ruiton Lower Gornal Staffordshire

Thomas Harris 1814 Ruiton
Anne Harris 1809 "
John Harris 1835 "
William Harris 1836 "
Rosanna Harris 1838 "
Joseph Harris 1840 "
Thomas Harris 1843 "
Jeremiah Harris 1850 "

1861 - Ruiton Sedgley Staffordshire

Thomas Harries 1809 Sedgley
Nancy Harries 1805 "
Thos Harries 1843 "
Jeremiah Harries 1850 "
Mose Henry Harries 1858 " (Grandson)

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:53:27 +0000

All done, thanks for the heads up Jeff, cheers Catherine.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:47:25 +0000

Hi Catherine,
as much as we're pleased you're finding this forum helpful, please do yourself a favour and remove your email address from your post.

This thread from last week explains why.... and shows how you can contact other forum users securely and in private. This forum's posts and now your personal email address may be read by all viewers of this site from all across the world without admin knowing who they are, sadly some of those viewers may have dishonest motives.

Please read this
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=47046

Many thanks.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 21:04:14 +0000

Hi Melissa, I just had a look back on the census forms I have, particularly 1841/1851 guilty of not putting my hands on them for some time and YES!!! we are DEFINITELY looking at the same family, I see James, Mary, George etc, how are you related to James Harris? I see someone else has replied to our posts, some insightful information, but like myself coming up against a brick wall in finding further family history beyond John Harris, so determined to find out more about his ancestors, cheers Catherine.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 16:28:32 +0000

Hi Catherine, do hope were both looking at the same family, here's a brief run down of the census records of the family as you can see James is mentioned on 1841 and 1851.

1841- Gospel Oak - Tipton - Staffordshire

John 30 (1811) Unknown Pingler of Iron
Elizabeth 30 (1811) Unkown
Ann 8 (1833) Unknown
George 6 (1835) Unknown
James 3 (1838) Staffordshire
Mary 11Mths (1840) Staffordshire

Hi all,
yesterday I tried, and sadly failed, to add to your knowledge of James and his parents. There does seem to be a distinct lack of hard evidence of the line before 1841, such as baptisms etc, which maybe suggests they were travellers, or at least not Church-goers. That said, it doesn't help that John & Elizabeth Harris are very "common" names, as I found when trying to find a possible marriage for them in the FoD area PRs.
I see you've posted a different 1841 Census record than Slowhands did on his earlier post, your's certainly looks to be the correct one, helped by the databases being more accessible these days. I have a great interest in engineering so just had to look-up the Census form image given John's intriguing if not unlikely occupation of "pingler". Sadly, not unusually it's an incorrect transcription, as you probably know. To me it looks like "shingler of iron". This term was new to me so thanks for introducing me to what may be a local Staffordshire term, a Shingler was apparently "a man who worked alongside an Iron Puddler, manipulating puddled balls of iron on an anvil".
http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/s.html

I already knew the more commonly recorded job of "iron puddler", a detailed definition of that may be safely downloaded from this link, which also mentions the job of "shindling" which is presumably derived from "shingling".
http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/i-k.html#iron_puddler

That 1841 Census form is a revelation to me, as in my usual researches they are not too informative, and usually a list of "ag labs" etc which I'm afraid I find a little boring. However this one is quite literally describing a hot-bed of engineering, with many other households in the iron-making trade, plus it includes the helpful "extra" address information. Of particular interest is the nearby home of Gospel Oak House, home of "ironmasters" John, Edward and Charles Walker, brothers I guess, which is most-probably where James worked. A quick google finds the Walkers are of Scottish origin, their Gospel Oak works were a significant concern in the mid 1800s, their structural steel was used in many of London's buildings, docks and bridges, plus they manufactured cannon and cannon balls;

"Samuel Walker, of Aldwark Hall, grandson of the original Samuel Walker, with his cousin William Yates, purchased the Gospel Oak Iron Works, Tipton and in 1822 removed the models and machinery for making cannon from the Holmes (and possibly Conisbrough which closed in 1821) to Gospel Oak Works in Staffordshire which they had purchased in 1817. In 1848 the works owned by John and Edward Walker, '...the manufacture of iron and tinplates is largely carried on; and adjacent is a foundry in which bridges, immense quantities of cannon, etc, are made. These works together employ 350 persons, and the wrought-iron cannon produced in the establishment have been brought to such perfection as probably to supersede brass cannon, from their possessing more tenacity, when hot, than those of brass, and not being heavier, a great desideratum with artillery-men...'
Source: A Topographical Dictionary of England." (1848).

see http://www.rotherhamweb.co.uk/h/122.htm
and also http://www.blackcountrymuse.com/apps/forums/topics/show/6667864
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/J._and_E._Walker

By coincidence Naval history and technology is another interest of mine, so it's particularly pleasing and interesting to see that your ancestor James Harris was making cannon balls for the same ships that had been built with Dean Forest oak for centuries. As much as I do admire my hardworking mining and farming ancestors, I'm a little envious of your engineering ones !.
Thanks for your interesting post.

----------

PS I see this Census form introduces first child Ann born abt 1833. I'd hoped finding her baptism would give clues to her parents background, however she doesn't seem to appear in the FoD PRs. Do you have any further information about her, please ?. I cannot find her for certain in the 1851 Census, there's a few Ann Harris' in the Staffs area by then, plus many more Mary Ann & Elizabeth Ann Harris'. Also she could have married by 1851, altho again I'm struggling to find a definite Marriage for her, anywhere.
??

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

mehaines82 — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 09:36:31 +0000

Hi Catherine, do hope were both looking at the same family, here's a brief run down of the census records of the family as you can see James is mentioned on 1841 and 1851. His birth is not registered and i have found no baptism records, I do however have the details of Catharine's Birth Certificate she was born in 1845 Gospel Oak to John and Elizabeth Harris nee Collins. After seeing your post I too looked at the Funfair Harris and if i remember right it didn't seem to fit. I haven't been able to go back any furthur so far and have had problems trying to find any info on any of their other children. Melissa

1841- Gospel Oak - Tipton - Staffordshire

John 30 (1811) Unknown Pingler of Iron
Elizabeth 30 (1811) Unkown
Ann 8 (1833) Unknown
George 6 (1835) Unknown
James 3 (1838) Staffordshire
Mary 11Mths (1840) Staffordshire

1851- Gospel Oak Building - Tipton- Staffordshire

John 43 (1808) Flatley, Gloucestershire Hammerman forge
Elizabeth 40 (1811) Newland, Gloucestershire
George 16 (1835) Tipton, Staffordshire
James 13 (1838) Tipton, Staffordshire
Mary 10 (1841) Tipton, Staffordshire
Thomas 7 (1844) Tipton, Staffordshire
Catharine 5 (1846) Tipton, Staffordshire

1861- Gospel Oak Works - Tipton - Staffordshire

John 53 (1808) Wedgebury, Gloucestershire Labourer Colliery
Eliz 50 (1811) Redbrook Parrish, Gloucestershire
Thomas 18 (1843) Tipton, Staffordshire
Catherine 15 (1846) Tipton, Staffordshire
John 9 (1852) Tipton, Staffordshire

1871- 26 Regent Street - Tipton - Staffordshire

John 63 (1808) Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire Watchman Iron Works
Catherine 24 (1847) Tipton, Staffordshire
John 19 (1852) Tipton, Staffordshire

1881- 26 Regent Street - Tipton - Staffordshire

John Harris 73 (1808) Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire
Catherine Steadman 33 (1848) Tipton, Staffordshire. [Daughter-Married]
Elizabeth Steadman 4 (1877) Tipton, Staffordshire. [Grandaughter]

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Tue, 12 Apr 2016 04:48:09 +0000

Hi Melissa, great to hear back from you, it was rumoured in the family that our Harris' were the wellknown Harris family, the only one I could find were the Harris Funfairs based in and around the Midlands, I am the Great, Great, Great Grandaughter of John and Elizabeth, with our line running from their Son Thomas, when was James born as I have no record of him, it was rumoured that his Daughter Tamar Harris (my Great Grandmother) was if Gypsy decent, still trying to confirm this, Harris is also a wellknown Gypsy surname along with Collins (Elizabeth's maiden name) and I see 3 of her siblings were 'Tinmen' also a wellknown Gypsy occupation. Still lots to research, have you managed to go back with the Harris' beyond John and Elizabeth? Look forward to hearing from you again, cheers, Catherine.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

mehaines82 — Mon, 11 Apr 2016 16:54:25 +0000

Hi Catherine, I too am quite excited. Found your post a while back and have spoken to my family (Harris) and we had no idea that the family may have been Gypsies, would love to know what you have been told. I am related to John and Elizabeth through their son James who after working in the Iron industry in Tipton Staffordshire went on to become a General Merchant (Coal, Iron, Scrap metal) working along the Canal Network from his home in Phoenix Street West Bromwich Staffordshire, just a short journey from Tipton. I don't know anything about Elizabeth or John unfortunately, I did post an inquiry on the forum asking about Elizabeth Collins and did get some information but wasn't sure if it fitted. Melissa

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

cnorris — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 07:42:41 +0000

Hi there, so excited to get your message, yes Elizabeth Collins seems to fit, do you know of any gypsy blood in the family most likely from the Harris side but possibly from both sides, I look forward to your reply and would love to know more about Elizabeth's early years. Cheers Catherine.

Romany Gipsy HARRIS' from Forest of Dean (reply)

mehaines82 — Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:42:34 +0000

Hi Catherine, The Elizabeth you mentioned in your post is possibly Elizabeth Collins. She is the Mother of Catherine Steadman nee Harris. I hope this is of some help.

John HARRIS 1808 Welshbury Hill area (reply)

slowhands — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:01:17 +0000

It seems most likely that John was born near Welshbury Hill in Flaxley based on the census returns http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/691886
- its an area that does have Gypsy connections - in a previous note I mentioned the nearby spring at St Antonys Well http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=20511
However many non Gypsy families come from this area too

Elizabeth ? appears to be from Redbrook.

1841
John Harris abt 1806 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Elizabeth Harris abt 1806 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
John Harris abt 1829 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
George Harris abt 1831 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Mary Harris abt 1839 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire

1851
John Harris abt 1808 Flatley, Gloucestershire, England Head Tipton, Staffordshire
Elizabeth Harris abt 1811 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Wife Tipton, Staffordshire
George Harris abt 1835 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Son Tipton, Staffordshire
James Harris abt 1838 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Son Tipton, Staffordshire
Mary Harris abt 1841 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Daughter Tipton, Staffordshire
Thomas Harris abt 1844 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Son Tipton, Staffordshire
Catharine Harris abt 1846 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Daughter Tipton, Staffordshire

1861
John Harris abt 1808 Wedgeberry, Gloucestershire, England Head Tipton, Staffordshire
Elizabeth Harris abt 1811 Redbrook Patrish, Gloucestershire, England Wife Tipton, Staffordshire
Thomas Harris abt 1843 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Son Tipton, Staffordshire
Catherine Harris abt 1846 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Daughter Tipton, Staffordshire
John Harris abt 1852 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Son Tipton, Staffordshire

1871
John Harris 63 Forest of Dean
Catherine Harris 24
John Harris 19

1881
John Harris abt 1808 Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Tipton, Staffordshire
Catherine Steadman abt 1848 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Daughter Tipton, Staffordshire
Elizabeth Steadman abt 1877 Tipton, Staffordshire, England Granddaughter Tipton, Staffordshire