Girtrude was born before (just) the 1881 census thats why she is there !.. its not unusual for children to be recorded as a child of the Head when in fact they are a grand child or niece/nephew.

Gertrude READ would not appear to be a daughter of George READ if she really was born in 1881; could this be a record error? Alternatively, there were READ families next door; three or four of them in three cottages. Richard and Fanny READ were in the next cottage.

I tend to follow siblings and parents of spouses of people in my Family Tree. I often go back another generation or so. But I am already back a few generations here and will probably not delve deeper.

I had missed the obvious about Gertrude's parentage thanks. As I expect you have already picked up, she did however appear to be the daughter of Jane in the 1881 Census :

1881 Census
Dwelling: (Newham Bottom)
Census Place: (Westbury On Severn) East Dean, Gloucester, England
Source: FHL Film 1341609 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2522 Folio 21 Page 4
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Jane READ W 53 F East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Head
Hannah READ U 23 F East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Servant (Dom) Out Of Situation
Martha A. READ U 15 F East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
George READ 12 M East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Mary B. READ 11 F East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
John READ 9 M East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Girtrude READ 2 m F East Dean, Gloucester, England
Rel: Daur

1891 Census East Dean RG12/2004/271
Jane Read widow 63 East Dean
John son 19 Coal Miner East Dean
Mary 21 Dom Servant East Dean

You will perhaps note another George Read thread :

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=23688

Jim Ashton

Thank you for the clarification of Richard b. 1743 and Margaret being George's (b.1785) parents and of Francis Read (b. approx 1700) and Margaret being that Richard's parents. The question now is, can we get back further? Another descendant has asked me 'when did the Reeds first come to the Dean?' I bet this is not an easy question!

Going back to Gertrude, she is not George's daughter (he died in 1879) and I have doubts that Jane was her mother, as by this time she was about 53 years old. I have now ordered a copy of Gertrude's birth certificate. When I get it I will let you know who are the stated parents (if both are mentioned...).

Thanks again for your help.

Matt

I believe we are singing from the same hymn sheet, but getting confused by Richard's and George's.

I agree that George Read 1785 who was the partner of Ann Brown were parents of George Read 1828 who married Jane Tingle 1828 and were the parents of Gertrude 1881, the subject of the first posting.

However, the Richard Read 1775 who married Sarah Tingle as "mentioned" in my posting of 11th February as follows :
Regarding the baptism of Mary Ann Read 1866, she was the daughter of Elijah Read 1814 & Eliza Price 1821. Elijah Read being the brother of Isaiah Read 1818 shown above, their parents Richard Read 1775/1830 & Sarah Tingle 1780/1854

To explain - Richard Read 1775 who married Sarah Tingle and were the parents of Isaiah Read, who gets a mention in one posting. Richard Read 1775 was the son of Francis Read 1730 and Jane Stephens 1738, Francis Read 1730 was the son of Francis Read born about 1700 & Margaret, who also had a son Richard Read 1743 who married Margaret. They were the parents of George Read 1785.

Jim Ashton

Its not un known for registration to be a month or two after the birth, and into the next Quarter. i.e. Feb -> April

Returning to Gertrude, I have now found her on Free BMD but she is shown as being born in the June quarter of 1881. Would it be possible that even though she was born in January/February, she was not registered until a while later, i.e upto 4 months later ?

Regards George's Will, I have a couple of words to try and decipher but I will try get it put on soonest.

Thank you for your help:)

I recall your posting mentioning that George Read & Ann Brown had not married, also your having the Will information. This helped to explain the use of Brown/Read & Brown Read in subsequent offsprings baptism and marriage information.

It is difficult to be absolutely positive about relationships, prior to the advent of certificates in 1837, but I have George Read who was the partner of Ann Brown as the son of Richard Read Baptised 13 April 1743 and Margaret. The baptism for George Read took place at Ruardean 10th April 1785 showing his parents as Richard Read and Margaret.

Yes I have Elizabeth Read born 1818 but not baptised until 1828 as one of the 2 wives of James Wilce. He went on to marry Charlotte Nelmes 11 May 1851, following the death of Elizabeth nee Read who was buried 27 Apr 1850 Ruardean. I look forward to seeing the George Seniors Will on the web site.

Jim Ashton

I think you are right, the Gertrude I am after is most likely another. If I am able to get her birth cert this should sort things out for me. The Richard Read you mention is, I believe the brother of George Read (1785/1851) who lived with, but did not marry, Ann Brown; their son George married Jane Tingle in 1853. She is the Jane referred to in the 1861 and 1891 Census returns that you mention.

By the way, from an earlier post I recall you were interested in Elizabeth Read, also a child of George and Ann Brown. I think Elizabeth was born in 1818 and that she married James Wilce in 1939. Certainly these two are mentioned in George senior's Will of 1846 which I have transcribed and which I hope to send through shortly for putting on the website.

I think the Gertrude Read with Isaiah Read is another. I have both in my Family Tree.
Isaiah Read 1849 is the son of Isaiah Read 1818/1884 & Elizabeth Brookshaw 1821. They had 12 children including Isaiah's brother George Read 1851 who married Amelia Goode 1852. George Read & Amelia had 9 children, including Gertrude Helen Read born 18 Aug 1880. Gertrude was a very busy lady who had 5 husbands/partners. One such partner was Alfred Shaw Cordy born Cinderford 11 Aug 1887, died Arizona 2 Dec 1938. He had 2 wives/partners - the other being Eva Annie Read - Gertrude Helen's sister !! Eva Annie died in California 12 Feb 1956. One of Gertrude Helen's husbands was William Ernest Marfell born Drybrook 29 Apr 1878. I have the marriage certificate where Gertrude is shown as Gertrude Helen Hodder widow, father George Read.

Regarding the baptism of Mary Ann Read 1866, she was the daughter of Elijah Read 1814 & Eliza Price 1821. Elijah Read being the brother of Isaiah Read 1818 shown above, their parents Richard Read 1775/1830 & Sarah Tingle 1780/1854.

To add to the census detail provided by Slowhands, I add 2 more below :

1861 Census East Dean RG 9 1755 10
George Read 33 Coal Miner East Dean
Jane 33 East Dean
Elizabeth 11 East Dean
Jane 6 East Dean
Anne 5 East Dean
Hannah 3 East Dean
John Tingle (wifes brother) 24 Coal Miner East Dean

1891 Census East Dean RG12/2004/271
Jane Read widow 63 East Dean
John son 19 Coal Miner East Dean
Mary 21 Dom Servant East Dean

As ever with these postings I usually add to my information thanks to Slowhands.

Jim Ashton

Name: Isaiah Reed
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 48
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 158

1891 Ruardean hill
Isarah M Reed abt 1849 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Reed abt 1852 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Gertrude Taylor abt 1882 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Visitor East Dean, Gloucestershire

1881
Isaih Reed abt 1849 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Reed abt 1852 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Ann Reed abt 1866 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire

Name:Sarah Chivers
Name: Isaiah Reed
Year of Registration: 1872
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 444

Year: 1866 ?????
Month: Nov
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: REED
Child_Forenames: Mary Ann
Fathers_Forenames: Elijah
Mothers_Forenames: Eliza
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: William Barker Incumbent
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P/109 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 46
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

1871
George Read 44
Jane Read 43
Ann Read 15
Hannah Read 13
Hellen Read 10
Martha Read 6
George Read 3
Mary Read 1

1881
Jane Read abt 1828 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Read abt 1858 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Martha A. Read abt 1866 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
George Read abt 1869 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary B. Read abt 1870 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Read abt 1872 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Girtrude Read East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire