Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

janfran — Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:21:54 +0000

Yes, I am beginning to think that this first? marriage did not take place.
If she told the Vicar he had been killed in action during the war, I suppose she wouldn't have a death certificate.
I wonder if Charlie Gale knew this?
My mother would have been about 9 years old when she came back to Ross to have Marjorie (as she was always known in the family, though I never met her).
As far as I was concerned it was always said Elsie had the child before marriage, and most of the gossip was about the fact that Charlie Gale was so old when she had his children!
I was very young and can only vaguely remember bits and pieces I heard.
There was at sometime a book published about Thomas Hardy, I think in the 60's, it must have been after Elsie's death, and I think that Elsie was rather reviled, I am not sure if that was in the local press.
There was a story that my cousin Eileen was on a bus in Topsham and 2 women were gossiping about her and she turned and said to them "that is my mother you are talking about"
I think I will have to file this in the unsolved box!!
Thank you for all the help you have given me, it is much appreciated

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

slowhands — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:58:59 +0000

I agree; You can speculate that the father named on the 1912 Birth Cert is a "phantom" to cover up a "mistake" , but when she comes to marry in 1915 how does she undo the "cover up" ? - by claiming to be widowed. By then its war time , so perhaps the vicar performing the marriage "took her word".

Did she know this DAWSON and simply take his "name" as a husband knowing he was already dead ?

Name: Charles Henry Dawson
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Year of Registration: 1906
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 21
District: Henley
County: Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 481

The "first" marriage if it exists should be in the BMD registers (ancestry allows us to see England and Wales) - could the marriage have been in Scotland or Ireland ? or elsewhere.

Where is the "dead" Henry Charles DAWSON ?

Name: Henry C Dawson
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Year of Registration: 1912
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 27
District: Middlesbrough (1875-1968)
County: Yorkshire - North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 836

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

janfran — Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:04:06 +0000

That is very interesting thank you.
I think you may be right, perhaps that is how they met.
There are several Henry Charles births and I suppose any one could be him, but I can't find a marriage or death so far.
I am still not sure that a marriage did take place, but surely she would have to have produced a death certificate, if she stated she was a widow, on her marriage to Charlie Gale?

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 - Dorney Wood, Bucks (reply)

slowhands — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:40:39 +0000

"Hall Porter" - Porter at a hotel or "Country House" starts to fit with Elsie Emily working as a Cook.

There was/is a significant Country House not far from Elsie in the 1911 census -

http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm?mapAction=gaz&gazName=g&...

Dorneywood House, or 'Lesser Chequers', near Burnham Beeches, Buckinghamshire. Standing in 200 acres of land with 45 rooms, it was left by Lord Courtauld-Thomson to the nation for the use of the prime minister or a minister of the crown. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorneywood

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

janfran — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:44:03 +0000

Thank you Slowhands for your reply.
Henry's occupation is given as Hall Porter, I suppose that would be in a Hotel?
He seems a real mystery man.
Elsie was the informant on the birth registration at Ross.

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

slowhands — Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:58:23 +0000

The closest I can find is :-

1911
DAWSON HENRY M 1865 46 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON HARRIETT F 1862 49 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON ALICE F 1897 14 Eton Buckinghamshire

Not sure where they are in 1901 , however there is a possible Alice nearby

1901
Mary A Carter abt 1849 Mickfield, Suffolk, England Head Clewer, Berkshire
Lilly Hutton abt 1889 Windsor, Berkshire, England Servant Clewer, Berkshire
Emily Dawson abt 1895 Winkfield, Berkshire, England Nurse Child (Nurse) Clewer, Berkshire
Alice Dawson abt 1897 Winkfield, Berkshire, England Nurse Child (Nurse) Clewer, Berkshire

Isuspect he lives til 1925
Name: Henry Dawson
Death Registration Month/Year: 1925
Age at death (estimated): 60
Registration district: Eton
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 779

However track back looks weaker

1891 Clarence Clump Oxford Rd
Jane Dawson abt 1836 London, England Head Clewer, Berkshire
Mary Ann Dawson abt 1874 Windsor, Berkshire, England Daughter Clewer, Berkshire

1881 Clarence Clump Oxford Rd
Henry Dawson abt 1836 Windsor, Berkshire, England Head Clewer, Berkshire Farrier
Jane Dawson abt 1836 London, Middlesex, England Wife Clewer, Berkshire
Emily Dawson abt 1863 Windsor, Berkshire, England Daughter Clewer, Berkshire
Henry Dawson abt 1866 Windsor, Berkshire, England Son Clewer, Berkshire
Margaret Dawson abt 1868 Windsor, Berkshire, England Daughter Clewer, Berkshire
Mary Ann Dawson abt 1874 Windsor, Berkshire, England Daughter Clewer, Berkshire

1871 Clarence Clump Clewer, Windsor Berkshire
Henry Dawson 36 farrier
Jane Dawson 35
Alice Dawson 12
Emely Dawson 8
Henry Dawson 5
Martha Dawson 3
Eliza Dawson 6 months

I suspect this is Henry
Name: Henry Elflick Dawson
Year of Registration: 1865
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Windsor
County: Berkshire, Surrey
Volume: 2c
Page: 406

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

janfran — Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:27:41 +0000

I now have the birth certificate for Lillian Marjorie Dawson.
Fathers name Henry Charles Dawson, Mother Elsie Emily Dawson, formerly Badham.
She was born at my Grandmothers, Berryfield Terrace, Ross.
The birth was not registered until 10th October 1912 at Ross, although she was born on the 13th September 1912.
So she must have stayed in Ross for sometime.
The name Charles Henry Dawson is not amongst the names, you gave me Slowhands, from the area she was living in during 1911.
I will have to do more digging!

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

janfran — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:13:31 +0000

I think my best bet will be to send for the birth certificate of Lillian M Dawson to get the full name of the father and try and go from there.
With regards to Adelaide the name given for Gaspare's father on the marriage certificate is Paul Palmer (wine merchant)
The address given for Adelaide and Gaspare is the same in Shepards Bush.(S0 perhaps they were living together ie Josphe - Gaspare)
All the children seem to have been born before the marriage.
I had picked up on the birth of Barbara at Ross, but I have only one cousin left who may have known and she hasn't any knowledge of her, she does remember Maria.
I wondered if she died young, but can't find a death.
The death of a Gladys Adelaide would not be my Aunt.
The Palma's moved to France and lived there.
I believe Adelaide died relatively young before the war.
My mother always said that her husband was not heard of after the Germans invaded (she believed he was an Italian Jew)
Whether this is true I don't know.
Lorenzo (born Ross) died in France about 21 years of age I believe.
Thank you for all the information that you have provided, real food for thought.

James Antonio Da PALMA 1876 -1936 North Leigh OXF (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:34:10 +0000

Name: José Da Palma
Name: Mary Louisa Chapman
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Witney
County: Berkshire, Gloucestershire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 1021

Name: James Antonio Palma
Year of Registration: 1876
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Witney
County: Berkshire, Gloucestershire, Oxfordshire
Volume: 3a
Page: 699

Name: Jose Francis Da Palma
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Edmonton
County: Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 211

Name: Jose Francis Da Palma
Estimated birth year: abt 1878
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 0
District: Edmonton
County: Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex
Volume: 3a

Name: José Da Palma ?
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 38
District: Edmonton
County: Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 136

1881 North Hill Victoria Beerhouse
Mary L. De Paula abt 1848 Teddington, Middlesex, England Head Hornsey, Middlesex Widow
James De Paula abt 1877 North Leigh, Oxfordshire, England Son Hornsey, Middlesex
Emma Chapman abt 1865 Whitton, Middlesex, England Step Sister Hornsey, Middlesex

1891
Mary L Palma abt 1851 Teddington, Middlesex, England Head St George Hanover Square, London Lodging House Keeper
Emma E Chapman abt 1865 Whitton, Middlesex, England Sister St George Hanover Square, London

Name: Mary Louisa Da Palma
Spouse :Frank Dickenson or James Slater
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Kingston
County: Middlesex, Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 682

Name: James Antonio Da Palma
Name: Georgina Maria Bonehill
Year of Registration: 1898
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Pancras (1837-1901)
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 190

1901
James A De Palma abt 1875 North Leigh, Oxfordshire, England Head St Pancras, London
Georgina M De Palma abt 1877 St Pancras, London, England Wife St Pancras, London
Jose A De Palma abt 1899 St Pancras, London, England Son St Pancras, London
Louisa G De Palma abt 1900 St Pancras, London, England Daughter St Pancras, London

1911
PALMER ANTHONY M 1877 34 Fulham London
PALMER GEORGINA MARIA F 1877 34 Fulham London
PALMER AMELIA BETSY F 1907 4 Fulham London
PALMER DOROTHY AUGUSTA F 1905 6 Fulham London
PALMER JOSE ANTONIO M 1899 12 Fulham London
PALMER LOUISA GEORGINA F 1901 10 Fulham London

Name: James A Da Palma
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 59
Registration district: London City
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 1c
Page: 13

Name: Georgina M Da Palma
Death Registration Month/Year: 1957
Age at death (estimated): 81
Registration district: Surrey Northern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 286

Lillian M DAWSON / BADHAM 1912 (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:59:23 +0000

magic !

Name: Lillian M Dawson
Year of Registration: 1912
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Mother's Maiden Name: Badham
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 783

So Elsie "fell" sometime Xmas / winter 1911-1912, 10 months earlier she is
in the 1911 Census (Sunday 2nd April) she is a Cook in Dorney Wood, Burnham ( nr Slough). Other male DAWSON's in the area include :-

1911
DAWSON ALBERT L M 1899 12 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON ANDREW M 1874 37 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON AUGUSTINE RAWKINS M 1847 64 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON HENRY M 1865 46 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON HORACE M 1871 40 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON LIONEL A M 1899 12 Eton Buckinghamshire
DAWSON CALEB W M 1871 40 Windsor Berkshire
DAWSON THOMAS WILLIAM M 1879 32 Windsor Berkshire
DAWSON WILLIAM JAMES M 1879 32 Windsor Berkshire

I'd still keep an open mind to a marriage -somewhere maybe not in England or Wales.

Again I'd still not rule out a WW1 death for Mr DAWSON, a possible given the condition of Widow when Elsie marries Mr GALE in 1915.

Validity of Marriage; Elsie E BADHAM 1888- 1964 (reply)

janfran — Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:31:24 +0000

Going on the fact that the children of Elsie seem to use their second names and my gut feeling that Elsie may have returned home to have her child, I have now found a birth at Ross.
Although my cousins name was Margery (Marjorie)I have found a birth in Dec Qtr 1912 at Ross of a Lillian M Dawson mothers name Badham.
This must be the child.
This rules out a WW1 marriage.
Either I can't find the marriage or they were cohabiting and she was calling herself Dawson.
Acording to my late mother, Elsie moved to Topsham to be housekeeper to Charlie Gale, and he married her.
So there doesn't appear to be a husband then.

Validity of Marriage; Adelaide BADHAM (reply)

janfran — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:51:49 +0000

Many thanks for your reply.
I have searched for the birth of Elsie's first child but no luck so far. I have searched under Badham and Dawson.
Her name was Marjorie or (Margery)
That birth could give a clue if a father is registered.
If she was illegimate I did think she may have come home to her mother at Ross for the birth.
The birth you identified after Elsies marriage, that cousin was known by his second name and so is another of her children.
Charles Gale was a prominent citizen of Topsham, Devon and the marriage took place in the parish church.
His first wife was Thomas Hardy's cousin Tryphena.
With reference to the Josphe (Gaspare)I think I will have to obtain the birth certificate of Maria or her later siblings to see the name registered for the father.
Thanks again

Validity of Marriage; Adelaide PALMA nee BADHAM (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:27:38 +0000

This one may be more straightforward :-)

Name: Maria Iris D Palma [Da Palma, Di Palma or De Palma ?]
Year of Registration: 1910
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: St Pancras (1902-1977)
County: Greater London, London
Volume: 1b
Page: 53

Phonetic is Josephe a Guiseppe or Gaspare, "Jose Da" ? , i.e. is it the same man or his brother?

1911 13 PERCY STREET LONDON ST PANCRAS
PALMA, JOSEPHE HEAD MARRIED M 22 WAITER HOTEL ITALY ROME
PALMA, ADELAIDE WIFE MARRIED 3 F 24 ROSS HEREFORDSHIRE
PALMA, MARIA DAUGHTER F 11 MONTHS LONDON ST PANCRAS

Name: Barbara E G Palma
Year of Registration: 1912
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Mother's Maiden Name: Badham
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 808

Name: Lorenzo G Palma
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Badham
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 876

Name: Gaspare Palma
Name: Adelaide G Badham
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's Surname: Badham
District: Fulham
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1a
Page: 1006

<><><><><><>

Name: Adelaide Gladys Badham
Year of Registration: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 461

is this her ?

Name: Gladys Adelaide Palmer
Birth Date: 8 Jul 1885
Death Registration Month/Year: 1974
Registration district: Salisbury
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 7c
Page: 2332

Validity of Marriage; Elsie E BADHAM 1888- 1964 (reply)

ebbwfach — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:57:10 +0000

Welcome to the world of yesterday.

Validity of Marriage; Elsie E BADHAM 1888- 1964 (reply)

janfran — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:23:32 +0000

It seems my aunts seemed to like giving false information.
My Aunt Adalaide Badham, born Bishops Wood in 1886 is on the 1911 census as the wife of Josephe Palma and states she has been married for 3 years and has a daughter Maria.
But in 1915 she marries a Gaspare Palma and gives her maiden name as Badham and states she is a spinster!
I have the marriage certificate and it does not mention a previous marrige.

Validity of Marriage; Elsie E BADHAM 1888- 1964 (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 10:14:07 +0000

I "hope" its just a case of the DAWSON marriage being obscure !
What took Elsie to Exeter ( south east - Topsham, Exmouth area) ?

It's possibly a short marriage ended by WW1?

Mr DAWSON may be Naval or Army

<><>these look like the children

Name: Leslie R Gale
Mother's Maiden Surname: Badham
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1916
Registration district: St Thomas
Registration county: Devon/Cornwall/Seilly
Volume Number: 5b
Page Number: 62

Name: Audrey E Gale
Mother's Maiden Surname: Badham
Date of Registration: Jul Aug Sep 1919
Registration district: St Thomas
Registration county: Devon/Cornwall/Seilly
Volume Number: 5b
Page Number: 53

<><><> husband (2?) and marriage

Name: Elsie E Gale
Death Registration Month/Year: 1964
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Wycombe
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 492

Name: Charles F Gale
Death Registration Month/Year: 1932
Age at death (estimated): 84
Registration district: St Thomas
Inferred County: Devonshire
Volume: 5b
Page: 68

Name: Elsie E Dawson
Name: Charles F Gale
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's Surname: Dawson
District: St Thomas
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 147

1911
GALE CHARLES FREDERICK M 1848 63 St Thomas Devonshire
GALE HERBERT MARSHALL M 1887 24 St Thomas Devonshire

1911 THE RENT COTTAGE DORNEY WOOD BURNHAM Eton Buckinghamshire
CUYLER, AMY BEATRICE HEAD SINGLE F 49 OWNER DORMINTORY ESTABLISHMENT TRINIDAD WEST INDIES
CUYLER, KATHARINE LILIAN SISTER SINGLE F 51 BELIZE W INDIES
CUYLER, EDITH MAUD SISTER SINGLE F 48 TRINIDAD WEST INDIES
DAVY, DOROTHY MARRIED 4 F 28 NONE OLVESTON GLOS ENG
DAVY, CHARLES EDWARD SINGLE F 2 BUENOS AIRES
DAVY, KATHLEEN MAUD SINGLE F 1 ARGENTINA
BADHAM, ELSIE EMILY SERVANT SINGLE F 23 COOK WALFORD HEREFORD
FULLER, EVA EMMA SERVANT SINGLE F 21 HOUSEMAID SWIFFHAM NORFOLK
BUCKLAND, ALICE SERVANT SINGLE F 17 NURSE EAST BURNHAM BUCKS

1911
BADHAM OWEN M 1865 46 Ross Herefordshire
BADHAM EMILY F 1862 49 Ross Herefordshire
BADHAM ADA F 1902 9 Ross Herefordshire
BADHAM AMY F 1904 7 Ross Herefordshire
BADHAM ETHEL F 1897 14 Ross Herefordshire

Name: Ada Muriel Badham
Year of Registration: 1901
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 492

1901
Owen Badham abt 1865 Walford, Herefordshire, England Head Ross, Herefordshire
Emily Badham abt 1862 Walford, Herefordshire, England Wife Ross, Herefordshire
Gertrude Badham abt 1885 Walford, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ross, Herefordshire
Elsie Badham abt 1888 Walford, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ross, Herefordshire
Elizabeth Badham abt 1890 Walford, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ross, Herefordshire
Mary Badham abt 1895 Ross, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ross, Herefordshire
Ethel Badham abt 1897 Ross, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ross, Herefordshire

1891
Owen Badham abt 1865 Walford, Herefordshire, England Head Walford, Herefordshire
Emily Badham abt 1862 Walford, Herefordshire, England Wife Walford, Herefordshire
Gertrude M Badham abt 1885 Walford, Herefordshire, England Daughter Walford, Herefordshire
Adelaide G Badham abt 1887 Walford, Herefordshire, England Daughter Walford, Herefordshire
Elsie E Badham abt 1888 Walford, Herefordshire, England Daughter Walford, Herefordshire

Name: Elsie Emily Badham
Year of Registration: 1888
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 4_[2_]a

Validity of Marriage

janfran — Sun, 14 Feb 2010 09:52:26 +0000

My Aunt Elsie Emily Badham who was born at Bishops Wood in 1888 married Charles Frederick Gale on 3rd april 1915.
I had real trouble finding this marriage then found out why, when I sent for the only certificate which was a probability.
Elsie had a child before her marriage.
When she married Charlie Gale he was 67 she was 27.
On the marriage certificate she states her name as Elsie Emily Dawson and that she is a widow.
Having made contact with a cousin who knew the family when she was young, she is certain that Elsie was not married before.
I have searched the records and cannot find a marriage between a Badham and a Dawson.
I wonder if anyone can tell me, if she made this false delclaration did this make the marriage invalid?
She went on to have 3 other children by this marriage.