Is there any more detail regarding the antecedents of Mary Ann Short (born 1825) or Sarah Cross (born ca 1769).

In return I have all the detail of Elizabeth Watkins (Parfitt, back to the 1660s) married to Thomas Watkins (born 1847) and their children).

I also have a link to the tree of Ann Watkins (born 1808)- no detail on the tree you sent me.

In reference to your posting on the Wakins FHS Message Board
http://www.watkins.org.au/mboard/mix_entry.php?id=1239#p1239

The dead link was of a family tree which was submitted by Joyce Cully (Parker) to The Watkins FHS in 2003. The family trees are no longer available on the Watkins FHS Web site but I have retained the gedcom files.

According to the information supplied Thomas WATKINS (b. 1753).
Parents: William WATKINS and Margaret FRYER
Outlived three wives - had 15 children, six dying in infancy. In 1841 census living with Mary, Jane and Anne Murdock, daughter and granddaughters.

I've extracted some information from this gedcom file which you can view.

William_Watkins_Arlingham_Descendants.png

Do you think my theory concerning a first marriage by Thomas to Ann Finch and his lineage back to Wiliam Watkins and Margaret Maybury is correct?

Finally, I have been looking for Sarah Cross. There aren't any records of a baptism at Westbury on Severn. There are two records in the FOD about the right time:

at Mitcheldean 1771
at Linton 1775.

Having asked that I had better stop bothering you. I am most grateful for the prompt answers and all the help.

Thomas WATKINS (widower) of Arlingham married Sarah CROSS, at Westbury on Severn 27 August 1799 - and the children in Arlingham from 1800 onwards (would assume? they belonged to this couple)

Inc. two Samuel's christened at Arlingham St Mary - Gloucestershire Baptism Index 1813-1837 (also on the Church of Latter Day Saints site)

Samuel WATKINS - 24 January 1816 parents Thos. (labourer) & Sarah (may be this is Sarah nee CROSS???) - don't have the burial Index unfortunately.

Samuel WATKINS - 17 August 1817 parents Thomas (labourer) & Sarah

The death certificate you have of Samuel in 1911 says he was 101 - however....

Going back to the 1851 census, (earlier reply) Samuel WATKINS gives his age as 34, c 1817

This is the 1861 census (where Samuel says he is age 44 c1817)

1861 Surrey, Merrow District

Samuel WALKINS - age 44 - Gardener, born Glos. Arlingham
Mary A - 35, Gardener's wife - Glos. Wilminster ***

*** Mary Ann SHORT, daughter of Samuel & Mary (occ Labourer)
address: Whitminster, baptised - 1 June 1823, Whitminster alias Wheatenhurst St Andrew

Sarah A - 17 - House Servant, born Glos. Arlingham
Thomas - 15, Farm Labourer - born Glos. Randwick
John - 13 - born Glos. Randwick
Samuel - 10 - born Upton St Leonard
Mary J -7 - born ditto
William - 5 - born ditto
Francis G - 2 months - born Surrey Merrow

Here are the other siblings of Mary Ann SHORT christened at Whitminster alias W.S.A

Sarah - 4 March 1821, Esther - 6 November 1825, Sabina - 19 July 1829, John - 23 September 1832

1841 Census, Wheatenhurst

Hester DAVIES - age 82 born in County
Mary SHORT - age 50
Sabina SHORT - age 11
John SHORT - age 8

1851 Census, Wheatenhurst

Mary SHORT - Wid - age 60, Farm Labourer, born Glos. Eastington
Sabina SHORT - daughter, unmarried age 21, born Wheatenhurst

brother John SHORT age 18, is also still in Wheatenhurst, farm labourer, lodging with William & Ann BARRON

(Unable to find the WATKINS family on the 1871 anywhere - On the 1871 census for Merrow, Surrey - the Enumerator has written (4 crossed over with a 7) - leaves missing.....

1881 Census, Merrow, Surrey
Merrow Street

Samual WATKINS, 67, (c1814 - three years earlier) formerly Gardener, Glos. Arlingham (Afflicted)
Mary Ann - 56, born Glos. Westminster
Samuel - unmarried - 27,
Mary Jane - 25 - unmarried, Laundress, born Upton St Leonard
Francis G - 20, Ag. Lab. born Surrey Merrow
Albert H - 13 - born ditto
Alfred WATKINS - Grandson, age 11, born ditto

1891 Census, Surrey, Merrow
Merrow Common - Aspen Lodge

Samuel WATKINS age 77 (c1814) Gardener retired, born Glos. Arlingham
Mary A - 67 - born Glos. Whitminster
Samuel - 39, Groom Domestic Servant, born Upton St Leonard

1901 Census, Surrey, Merrow
Lower Lodge, (Clandon Park)

Samuel WATKINS age 87 (c1814) - Retired Coachman, born Glos. Allingham
Mary A - 77 - born Glos. Whitminster
Samuel - unmarried age 43, Groom Domestic, born U-S-L

Thomas seems to have had many chilren by Sarah (Ambrose)

Thomas 1802
William 1804 - died 1805
William 1806
Ann 1808
Mary 1809
Dinah 1813

and possibly

Samuel 1816
Samuel 1817

Now my Samuel, and I have his death certificate stating he was 101 in 1911, was born in 1810. He would fit very nicely into the early series but I can't find any mention of his birth. I suppopse he could have been mistaken about his age although he died with family around him. I can't see two more Samuels having the same name if he survived. Perhaps these two were not the same family.

Assuming he does belong in this series I think there were five step brothers and sisters by a first wife, Ann Finch. There is a marriage between Thomas and Ann at Arlingham dated 9.11.1786 and five children born between 1787 and 1796.

Then Thomas appears to be the eldest of five children born to Wm.Watkins and Margaret Mayberry of St Briavells who were married in 1744.

It looks highly likely. If only I could be sure my Samuel, born in 1810, was part of this family.

Thanks for the tip re the IGI, I didn't know it could be used that way.

Thos WALKINS age 85 - Ind is living with
Mary MADAK - age 30 -
Jane - age 7 - christened Jane MURDOCK, 23 February 1834, parents Matthew (Waterman) & Mary
Ann - age 5 - christened 4 April 1836 - parents as above.

Mary MURDOCK (Widow) had a Son Thomas christened 27 October 1844 at Arlingham (b.....d) !!!

I think this helps (from the FOD records)

Mary MURDOCK (widow) age 38, (c1809) married Samuel DOBBINS - at Arlingham 18 October 1847.

Mary's father is listed as Thomas WATKINS - labourer.....

1851 census, Arlingham, Church Street

Sam DOBBINS - age 56, born Ashleworth
Mary DOBBINS - age 41, born Arlingham
Jane MURDOCK - age 17 - born ditto
Thomas MURDOCK - age 6 - born ditto
Mary Ann DOBBINS - age 2 - born ditto

FOD - Arlingham baptisms records start at 1813

However....

If you Google - IGI Batch Numbers for Gloucestershire - go down to down to Arlingham

-------------

Church of Latter Day Saints

Thomas WATKINS - christened Arlingham 26 September 1753, father Wm

Looks as though Thomas WATKINS married twice, first to Ann FINCH - 9 November 1786 Arlingham

- and there are children by this couple at Arlingham

Hannah - 21 October 1787 died 9 April 1788
Hannah - 3 May 1789
Thomas - 14 November 1790
Thomas - 1 July 1791
Elizabeth - 22 May 1796

FOD records, Thomas WATKINS, widower of Arlingham, married Sarah CROSS at Westbury on Severn 27 August 1799

Arlingham baptisms - Thomas & Sarah

Thomas - 31 August 1800
John - 16 May 1802
Anne - 21 August 1808
William - 13 May 1804 died 10 November 1805
William - 2 February 1806
Dinah - christened 6 June 1813, died 17 February 1822
Samuel - 24 January 1816
Samuel - 17 August 1817

I have a copy of the Samuel Watkins/Mary Ann Short marriage certificate. (Samuel was my Great Grandfather. He died in 1911!)Thomas is described as a labourer and was, presumably, alive. He should be in the 1941 census.

If Thomas Walkins is my man he would have been born around 1756, and Samuel would have been born when he was around 54. I guess that's ok. Was anybody living with him in 1941? I don't have any siblings for Samuel.

Since eldest children were often named after their father I suspect there is likely to be a younger Thomas. I wonder if he was the Thomas who married Sarah Ambrose in 1811. Supposing he was about 20 when he married Sarah in 1811 he could easily be Samuel's older brother.

If you can think of any way I can pursue this I would welcome further comment.

I must say I would welcome a distant relative from Newland. I know the Church and the Ostrich quite well.

Thanks again

RENS

There are WATKINS/sometimes transcribed as WALKINS on the 1841 census for Arlingham inc. Thos. WALKINS age 85.

1851 census Upton St Leonards
Sneedham Green

Samuel WATKINS - age 34 (c1817) Gardener, born Arlingham Glos.
Mary A WATKINS - age 27, born Glos. Whitminster
Sarah WATKINS - age 7, born Arlingham
Thomas WATKINS - age 5, - born Randwick
John WATKINS - age 2 or 3 - born Randwick
Samuel WATKINS - age 8 months - born Upton St Leonards.

Baptisms at Arlingham - parents Thomas & Sarah WATKINS - there is a Thomas WATKINS who married a Sarah AMBROSE (Newland - 17 February 1811??) too many Thomas WATKINS

Two Samuel births with above parents

24 January 1816, and then 17 August 1817
plus Dinah WATKINS, 6 June 1813 - buried Arlingham 17 February 1822 age 8.

I know he was the Father of Samuel Watkins born in Arlingham about 1810 who married Mary Anne Short born about 1824 of Wilminster, Glos. They had several children including Sarah Ann Watkins baptised in Arlingham 22.10.1843 (recorded on this site) Samual and Mary moved around within Gloucestershire before settling in Surrey around 1860.

I would be greatful for any help

Thanks

RENS