Can't see any of the children under any of the name Thomas was likely to use.. Ward/ Burns/Barnes/Byrne/Marshall :(

Simone x

1861 census at Mire, West Dean
RG9; Piece: 3983; Folio: 36; Page: 5;
Thomas Ward 32 woodcutter
Esther Ward 34
Robert Ward 8
Thomas Ward 6
Milson Ward 4
Martha Ward 2

Thomas has died in 1864

691
Year 1864
Month Dec
Day 28
Surname WARD
Forenames Thomas
Residence Joyford
Age at death 36
Officiating Minister W.H.Taylor
Event Burial
Cause of death
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P82 IN 1/13
Page No 87
Parish Chapel Christchurch

Esther on her own in 1871 still at The Mire

RG10; Piece: 5300; Folio: 75; Page: 25
Esther Ward 44
Robert Ward 18 Coal Miner
Thomas Ward 17
Milson Ward 14
Martha Ward 12
Esther Ward 7

Here is Richard in 1851 at Joyford

HO107; Piece: 2444; Folio: 329; Page: 9
Richard Webb 28
Elizabeth Webb 26
Eliza Webb 5 (b Eliza Ward 1846 see other posts)

1861 census? (this entry has Richard listed as son of Elizabeth Morse on transcription but they are actually 2 different households)
RG9; Piece: 3981; Folio: 82; Page: 14
at Yorkley
Richard Webb 38 coal miner
Elizabeth Webb 36
Eliz Webb 15
Ann Webb 8
Richard Webb 5
Thomas Webb 3
Elizabeth Webb 89 mother

1871 census
RG10; Piece: 5300; Folio: 71; Page: 17
Name Age
Richard Webb 48
Elizabeth Webb 46
Anne Webb 19
Richard Webb 16
Thomas Webb 14

Elizabeth's death?

107
Year 1871
Month Nov
Day 19
Surname WEBB
Forenames Elizabeth
Residence Berry Hill
Age at death 47
Officiating Minister W.H.Taylor
Event Burial
Cause of death
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference PFC82 IN 1/14
Page No 14
Parish Chapel Christchurch

then Richard marries Esther in July 1872.

411
Year 1880
Month Aug
Day 5
Surname WEBB
Forenames Esther
Residence Ruerdean Hill
Age at death 55
Officiating Minister W.H.Taylor
Event Burial
Cause of death
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference PFC82 IN 1/14
Page No 52
Parish Chapel Christchurch

death Esther 1880?

1881 Palmers Flat
RG11; Piece: 5225; Folio: 6; Page: 5
Benjamin Harris 30
Ann Harris 28
Ellen Harris 8
Elizabeth Harris 7
Ben Harris 5
Geneva Harris 2
Alice Harris 1 month
Richard Webb 57 father in law, widow

marriage at Coleford Congregational
27410
Entry Number
Year 1872
Month Apr
Day 7
Grooms Surname HARRIS
Grooms Forenames Benjamin
Grooms Age
Groom Condition
Grooms Occupation
Grooms Residence
Grooms Fathers Surname
Grooms Fathers Forenames
Grooms Fathers Occupation
Brides Surname WEBB
Brides Forenames Ann
Brides Age
Brides Condition
Brides Occupation
Brides Residence
Brides Fathers Surname
Brides Fathers Forenames
Brides Fathers Occupation
Licence or Banns
Date of Banns
Signature or Mark
Witness 1
Witness 2
Other Witnesses
Officiating Minister
Event Marriage

Simone x

2442
Entry_Number: 217
Year: 1872
Month: Jul
Day: 7
Grooms_Surname: WEBB
Grooms_Forenames: Richard
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Widower
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: The Lonk
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Webb
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: WARD
Brides_Forenames: Esther
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Widow
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Joyford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hawkins
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: John Jones
Witness_2: Mark of Ann Ward
Other_Witnesses: None
Officiating_Minister: Tho. R. Garnsey
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Notes: -
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 5
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex_Groom: W100
Soundex_Bride: W630

Esther's first marriage - witnesses are Richard and Elizabeth

78
Year: 1851
Month: Dec
Day: 29
Grooms_Surname: WARD
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Woodcutter
Grooms_Residence: Joyford
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Burns
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: HAWKINS
Brides_Forenames: Esther
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Joyford
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hawkins
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Richard
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Richard Webb
Witness 2 Mark of Elizabeth Webb
Other_Witnesses: None
Officiating_Minister: Tho. O Tudor B.A. Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Notes: -
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 39
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch
Soundex_Groom: W630
Soundex_Bride: H252

Thomas is the brother of his first wife Elizabeth
so Richard Webb married the widow of his brother in law Thomas.

Simone x

I have someone in my tree who was born illegitimately, baptised 6 weeks after birth and on the same day his mother married, so I am sure who she married was the dad. Photos show the resemblance anyway. :)

Simone xx

I had also missed the link with Eliza's father's occupation being a collier - many thanks for that observation. You are brilliant. You can tell I am very new at this.

I have wondered if Eliza Ward's father was in reality Richard Webb as her mother Elizabeth Ward and Richard must have married shortly after her birth and he was willing for his name to appear on her wedding details as her father and he gave her his surname on the censuses.

Yes Gwyn, I'm with you :)

I bet Peter is a 'cousin' to Eliza and that is how they knew each other, although they aren't actually related.

At their marriage, Eliza has been asked name and occupation of father and has just said Richard, Collier.. so filled in as Richard Ward not Webb by vicar.

for info for anyone else :)- the first Eliza b c 1848 was baptised as Byrne.

(see previous postings)
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=28342

150734
Entry Number 131
Year 1848
Month Aug
Day 25
Parents Surname BYRNE
Child Forenames Eliza
Fathers Forenames Charles
Mothers Forenames Charlotte
Mothers Surname
Residence Joyford's Hill (Berry Hill)
Occupation Woodcutter
Officiating Minister J. Banks M.A. Perpetual Curate
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference PFC82 IN 1/3
Page Number 17

Simone xx

Firstly, on the 1851 census Charlott and Charles Ward of Joyford have a daughter Eliza born 1849. I have found a burial on 19 November 1854 in Christchurch for an Eliza Ward of Joyford - aged 6. (I can find no baptism for Eliza, daughter of Charlott and Charles.)

On subsequent censuses Charlott and Charles have a daughter Eliza/Elizabeth born 1856/1857. Must be another daughter implying that the first Eliza did die as she never again appears on a census with them. I have traced the family and on the 1901 census the second Eliza is now married to James Powell and I have traced them to the 1911 census.

On 19 April 1846 the illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth (no surname given) - the child's name is given as Eliza Ward - is christened in Christ Church. I cannot trace any Eliza Ward born 1845/46 on any census. Although Eliza was baptised on that date she could have been born in 1845.

I have looked at marriages for various Elizabeth Wards after 1845, the date of birth of the illegitimate daughter, and there is no Eliza Ward on any of the subsequent censuses with them and their husbands.

On 19 December 1845 Richard Webb married Elizabeth Ward (John Burns is her father) and on the 1851 census they list a daughter by the name of Eliza Webb! She appears with them on the 1861 census and then disappears. I can find no baptism for Eliza Webb.

On 21 June 1868 Peter Webb marries Eliza Ward (father listed as Richard WARD). If this was Richard Webb he may have used the surname Ward because it is Eliza's surname inherited from her mother plus record keeping wasn't as scrupulous then as it is today. Throughout her life Eliza consistently puts her birth year as 1846 and the place of her birth as Joyford/Berry Hill/Coleford.

Would anyone like to comment on my deductions - please, please do so - I would be so grateful.