Forest of Dean FHT Forum - significance of dates

significance of dates (reply)

mrsbruso — Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:37:22 +0000

A clue may be found in the date of John's marriage to Emma. They were married 25 November 1860. Priscilla is baptised very shortly thereafter on 6 December 1860. At the census the following year they are living with her parents. Not the most auspicious of beginnings for them.

Is there a chance that their marriage might have been annulled?

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ? (reply)

chrise — Sun, 06 Feb 2011 21:40:18 +0000

Emma LEAKE is declared as a spinster and William BENNETT a Bachelor on the Marriage certificate. Both are 'of age'.

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ? (reply)

Simone — Sun, 06 Feb 2011 11:30:23 +0000

Does Emma say she is a single at this marriage?

I am tending to think that she has married John... met William and fell pregnant to him... John has then left, or maybe had already gone anyway? maybe after John has gone she has become pregnant to William, seems coincidental that she has given the child the christian names of the man she later marries. Maybe they waited so many years to see if John would return, and when they thought he would never come back, then decided to marry, wouldn't be the first to marry without divorcing. John seems to have fell off the face of the earth doesn't he.. wonder if he emigrated. Can't se a definite death.

does Priscilla name dad on her marriage and does she put him down as deceased?

If it were me I would be following the Bennett line, I feel he is most likely dad.. and he has brought William up anyway.

Simone x

Cornelius GRAFTON ? - Emma's mother Caroline perhaps (reply)

Simone — Sun, 06 Feb 2011 11:20:22 +0000

good idea Slowhands! could have been misconstrued couldn't it:)

Henry Watts GRAFTON 1805 -1879 Churcham (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:09:18 +0000

{ another transcription challenge ?}

Year: 1805
Month: Apr
Day: 21
Parents_Surname: GRAFFING
Child_Forenames: Henry Watts
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Wm Gyllett A.M. vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 183
Parish_Chapel: Churcham

Name: Henry Watts Grafton
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Year of Registration: 1879
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 73
District: Gloucester (1837-1937)
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 201

<><><><>

Year: 1791
Month: Feb
Day: 17
Grooms_Surname: GRAFTON
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Staunton in the County of Worcester
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: FLIDE
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Of this Parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Licence
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: The mark of Thomas Vernon
Witness_2: William Rowles
Other_Witnesses: The mark of Phebe Golding
Officiating_Minister: Tho[ma]s Parker Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 1
Parish_Chapel: Churcham

possible children

1792 GRAFTON Anne William Elizabeth Churcham
1794 GRAFTON William William Elizabeth Churcham
1798 GRAFTON William William Elizabeth Churcham
1803 GRAFTON Elizabeth William Elizabeth Churcham
1805 GRAFFING Henry Watts William Elizabeth Churcham
1808 GRIFFING Elizabeth William Elizabeth Churcham
1811 GRAFTING John William Elizabeth Churcham

Year: 1839
Month: Apr
Day: 28
Surname: GRAFTON
Forenames: William
Residence: Churcham
Age_at_death: 86
Officiating_Minister: Geo[rge] W.Hall Rector of Taynton
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/6
Page_No: 42
Parish_Chapel: Churcham

Year: 1847
Month: Mar
Day: 10
Surname: GRAFFON
Forenames: Elizabeth
Residence: Westbury
Age_at_death: 80
Officiating_Minister: J J G Graham Assistant Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P354 IN 1/8
Page_No: 171
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn

<><>< long shot !

Year: 1769
Month: Jun
Day: 17
Parents_Surname: FLOYD
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: Joseph
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P125 IN 1/8
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Dymock

Cornelius GRAFTON ? - Emma's mother Caroline perhaps (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 06 Feb 2011 07:47:10 +0000

Year: 1840
Month: Sep
Day: 20
Grooms_Surname: GRAFTON
Grooms_Forenames: Henry Walter
Grooms_Age: Full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Churcham
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Grafton
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: DEE
Brides_Forenames: Caroline
Brides_Age: Full
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: Servant
Brides_Residence: Red Marley
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Dee
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Licence
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Mark of Esther Dee
Witness_2: Wm Stephens
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Geo. C.Hall Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P83 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 5
Parish_Chapel: Churcham

1841
Henry Grafton abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Caroline Grafton abt 1821 Gloucestershire, England Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Henry Grafton abt 1841 Gloucestershire, England Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Homan Glover abt 1830 Gloucestershire, England Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire

1851
Henry Grafton abt 1811 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Head Abinghall, Gloucestershire
Caroline Grafton abt 1821 Westbury, Gloucestershire, England Wife Abinghall, Gloucestershire
Henry Grafton abt 1841 Corseham, Gloucestershire, England Son Abinghall, Gloucestershire
Emma Grafton abt 1843 Westbury, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Abinghall, Gloucestershire
William Grafton abt 1846 Westbury, Gloucestershire, England Son Abinghall, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Grafton abt 1849 Abinghall, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Abinghall, Gloucestershire

Year: 1860
Month: Nov
Day: 25
Grooms_Surname: LEEK
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age: 20
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Westbury on Severn
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated}
Brides_Surname: GRAFTON
Brides_Forenames: Emma Watts
Brides_Age: 20
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Westbury on Severn
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Grafton
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: They Both Mark
Witness_1: Mark of Joseph Bullock
Witness_2: Mark of Cornelius Grafton
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Christopher Jay Jones Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P354 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 135
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn

Year: 1860
Month: Dec
Day: 6
Parents_Surname: LEEK
Child_Forenames: Priscilla
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Emma
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Westbury
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Chris Jay Jones Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P354 IN 1/15
Page_Number: 28
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn

1861
Henry W Grafton abt 1810 Churcham, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Caroline Grafton abt 1818 Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England Wife Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Grafton abt 1850 Abinghall, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
John Lake abt 1841 Ashleworth, Gloucestershire, England Lodger Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Emma Lake abt 1843 Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England Wife Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire
Priscilla Lake abt 1860 Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire

1871 Haresfield
Henry Grafton 57
Caroline Grafton 51
Priscilla Lake 10

Name: Caroline Grafton
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Year of Registration: 1877
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 57
District: Gloucester (1837-1937)
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 156

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ? (reply)

chrise — Sat, 05 Feb 2011 22:20:44 +0000

I'm with you on the illigitimate part Simone. I've not looked for any trace of Cornelious. I do have the marriage cert for William and Emma in Highnam but it doesn't really give any further information. Emma's Father is down as Henry LEAKE.

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ? (reply)

Simone — Sat, 05 Feb 2011 10:13:06 +0000

Hi :)

A search of the FOD records found a William Charles LEEK baptised Nov 1863, base born (illigitimate), Mother Emma (wife separated from her husband). Is this my William Charles Lake BENNETT.

William is illigitimate.. surely he would not be recorded as this if John was his father and John and Emma were still married, even though separated... maybe this is the reason why they were separated?

Do you know who Cornelius Grafton is, who witnessed the marriage between John and Emma? I can't see him anywhere :(

The marraige in 1866 between William Bennett and Emma Leake took place at Holy Innocents, Highnam (Gloucs BMD)..could do with a lookup on that.. may give some more clues;)

Simone x

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ? (reply)

rookancestrybest — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 20:28:29 +0000

The best thing to do is to keep looking at a range of sources, have an open mind and never assume that because there appears to be no record that the person died or did not exist. I always try to prove/verify things by looking at a range of sources.I have found that sometimes something apparently insignificant or a fragment of information opens a massive way into finding out much more e.g. I removed some photographs from a photograph album which had never been removed to look at the back of them, and sure enough the people's names were written on many of them!!! I have also found other relatives who have researched family history independently and this has been useful when they have made the same links as me from looking for the information differently or from other information I did not have.
When I first started on family history I made a number of assumptions, e.g. many times that people had died in childhood, only to find that this was wrong because they would pop up unexpectedly in the most surprising places, e.g. one person I thought had died, actually lived to a ripe old age and married three times. Remember that people may have gone abroad especially if they were in the army, navy, or Church, so the British Colonial territories e.g. India are sometimes where the family had "disappeared" to. Also bear in mind that at the end of the Victorian era a lot of people went to the USA too. Also never forget that people can spell their surnames differently and that Census records and transcriptions can be misspelt.
Also don't assume because one branch of the family might be very poor that others could be rich and vice versa because people's circumstances even within one family can change and can create a vast difference in their life chances. I have found in one branch of my family (not FOD) that the eldest sons inherited, became rich as did their descendants but younger siblings ended up in very modest or poorer circumstances and over about three or four generations the differences in their circumstances can be enormous.
E.g. the descendants of one brother can end up at expensive public schools and the descendants of another might be in the workhouse when a few generations have passed! The early death of the breadwinner can also make a family's circumstances change dramatically especially in the 19th Century.

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ? (reply)

slowhands — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 11:16:02 +0000

how much we can put down to assumption when using records of our ancesters found in various sources.

Simply, based on all the material you have at hand, you can assume as much or as little as you like - however it pays to make a note of those assumptions so that when you go back in a few weeks/years, or because a new source of information comes to light - you can then challenge those assumptions and make adjustments if necessary.

Most times it comes down to a gut feeling / experience of what is the "best fit" or most logical.

Dont be too put off by spellings or census ages that vary - this is normal :-)

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=14889

<><><><>

Given the information above is it reasonable for me to conclude that Emma LAKE/LEAKE and Emma GRAFTON are the same person and that William Charles Lake BENNETT (1863) is the illigitimate (and therefore biological son) of William Chareles BENNETT (1841) and Emma LEAKE/LAKE (GRAFTON) ?

Emma LAKE/LEAKE and Emma GRAFTON are the same person - seems a reasonable assumption

(and therefore biological son) of William Charles BENNETT (1841) - a cautious assumption, always difficult to be sure of the DNA/Blood line when a child is declared illigitimate, unless a Bastardy Bond exists

Was there a divorce between John LAKE/LEEK and Emma GRAFTON?
I've done a search (web) from the national archives for a divorce of LAKE/LEAK(E)/GRAFTON but with no luck
How was Emma able to marry again if she was not divorced ?

Do we know that John LAKE/LEEK survived and, is not dead and buried ?

LAKE BENNETT GRAFTON - Prior Thread (reply)

slowhands — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:16:15 +0000

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=26544

How much can we assume when tracing our ancesters ?

chrise — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:00:46 +0000

I'm trying to figure out just how much we can put down to assumption when using records of our ancesters found in various sources. My current dilemma is shown below and I would be grateful if anyone can assist in helping me to decide which blood line to follow. I how this makes sense.

The search for the details for William Charles Lake Bennett

I have been researching my Wife's Gloucestershire family history for a number of years and came to a sticking point with her GG Grandfather William Charles Lake BENNETT (I contributed to a different thread for him). I have now found information from which I need to make a decision as to the birth line and wondered if anybody could give me advice about how much I can assume when trying to figure this out.

The main details are

According to Census information (1871/1881) and marriage certificate William Charles Lake BENNETT was born around 1862/1863 in Chaxhill/Westbury on Severn. Father was William Charles BENNETT (b approx 1841) and Mother Emma (Maiden name unknown, BIRTH APPROX 1841)

Search of BMD Indexes found no births registered for this birth for any years around this date.

I purchased the Birth certificate of his brother Albert Henry (third child born 1869 in Orcop) and found that the his mothers maiden name was Emma GRAFTON.

A search of the BMD for a marriage of William Charles BENNETT to Emma GRAFTON for years between 1860 & 1870. No Joy. The only marriage of a William BENNETT to a Emma that I could find was that of an Emma LEAKE.

A search of the FOD records found a William Charles LEEK baptised Nov 1863, base born (illigitimate), Mother Emma (wife separated from her husband). Is this my William Charles Lake BENNETT.

A search of the FOD records also came up with a John LEEK/Emma GRAFTON Marriage on 25 Nov 1860, Westbury on Severn, (Father Henry GRAFTON). Ages similar to those on future census. FOD also shows that they had a daughter (Priscilla) baptised 6 Dec 1860, Census records for 1861 show John LAKE (Son In Law), Emma Lake (Daughter) and Pricilla (Grandaughter) living with Henry GRAFTON (Head).

A search of the BMD indexes found no registration for a William Charles LEEK/LAKE (or variations) that match the FOD. However, a search for a William Charles GRAFTON was successful. Born 23 Sep 1863 and registerd in Chaxhill/Westbury on Severn. No Father is named on the certificate, mother's maiden name is Emma LAKE (Nee GRAFTON). Looks like this index record is an incorrect transcription and his surname should have been entered as LAKE.

The alternative is that William Charles LAKE is the biological son of John LAKE.