Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN (General)

by BigEd, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 09:37 (1255 days ago)

I'm looking for information about my grand parents :-

Thomas Edwin Brookes AKA “Teddy ”
Born: between 1896 & 1900
Died: December 1963 Johannesburg South Africa.

Ivy Alexandra Sophia (Nee Brain) AKA “Dolly”
Born: 10 Jan 1901 Forest of Dean, Westbury On Severn, Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England, UK
Died: Kempton Park South Africa.

They were married in June 1922 at St Peter, Clearwell, Forest Of Dean, Monmouthshire UK.
They immigrated to Kimberley South Africa in the late 1920's
Teddy was a teacher at Kimberley Boys' High School till retirement about 1954

Any data pertaining to Dolly or Teddy and their genealogy including siblings and their offspring will be gratefully received.

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by selbyfamily @, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 12:54 (1255 days ago) @ BigEd

Have you searched for Thomas Edwin Brookes, South Africa, on the internet? There are lots of references to him and his family there. Sorry I do not have time to go into it myself but you may find something there you do not already know. There is a Brookes family in my husband' family but as far as I can see at the moment, he is not related to them but you never know!
Sheila

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by BigEd, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 17:06 (1255 days ago) @ selbyfamily

Thanks Sheila,
The "My Heritage" site data is all information gleaned from my records.
I'm keen to get more about Teddy and Dolly's lives before they emigrated to South Africa

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 18:21 (1255 days ago) @ BigEd

This article clearly refers to the family. Perhaps there’s some useful information in it?

BNA Gloucester Journal - Saturday 26 April 1941

GLO'STER GOLDEN WEDDING
Mr. and Mrs. James Brain, formerly of Cinderford, have celebrated their Golden Wedding in Gloucester. They were married at Lydbrook Baptist Chapel on April 11, 1891. Mr. Brain, who is about 73 and still very fit, came from Ruardean Hill, and his bride, who has been an invalid for the past two years, lived at Ruardean. They are now living at 3, Oxford Street, Gloucester. Mrs. Brain was Miss Annie Bess Palmer, and both families are well known on the Eastern side of the Forest. Mr. Brain's uncle, Mr. Moses Brain, was manager of the old Foxes Bridge colliery. Mr. and Mrs. Brain were in business in Cinderford for many years. They kept the Old Bell public house at the bottom of the High Street, and when that was closed they went to the Railway Hotel, near the station. Just before the Great War Mr. and Mrs. Brain took a boarding house in George Street, Gloucester, and they have now been in retirement for about 10 years. Two daughters, Mrs. Godfrey Moffatt, the Welsh Harp, London Road and Mrs. S. May, the Railway Hotel, Bristol Road, are engaged in similar business in Gloucester. Another daughter, Mrs. Teddy- Brookes, whose husband comes from Clearwell, is in South Africa, and a son, Mr. Eddie Brain, is in Cheltenham in railway work.

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by BigEd, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 14:33 (1250 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Thanks Mike,
Very useful and interesting information indeed. Much appreciated.
Now I'm hoping to learn more about Teddy's parents and family.

James BRAIN m Annie Bess PALMER at Lydbrook c1891

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 23:07 (1247 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

BNA Gloucester Journal - Saturday 26 April 1941

GLO'STER GOLDEN WEDDING
Mr and Mrs James Brain, formerly of Cinderford, have celebrated their Golden Wedding in Gloucester. They were married at Lydbrook Baptist Chapel on April 11, 1891. Mr. Brain, who is about 73 and still very fit, came from Ruardean Hill, and his bride, who has been an invalid for the past two years, lived at Ruardean. Mrs Brain was Miss Annie Bess Palmer, and both families are well known on the Eastern side of the Forest.

Cannot find a full PR for their marriage, but FreeBMD has it;
Ed, note that FreeBMD quotes dates to the nearest Quarter, so this Record relates to an event in April or May or June, and so on. Also note the year differs from the newspaper report. GlosBMD has this Record but currently cannot add the place...

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1892 (>99%)
BRAIN James Monmouth 11a 73
Palmer Annie Bessie Monmouth 11a 73


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1869 (>99%)
Palmer Annie Bess Ross 6a 441

The newspaper report suggests James was born abt 1868.

Roots of Annie Bess PALMER living in Lydbrook c1891

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 00:33 (1244 days ago) @ Jefff

BNA Gloucester Journal - Saturday 26 April 1941

GLO'STER GOLDEN WEDDING
Mr and Mrs James Brain, formerly of Cinderford, have celebrated their Golden Wedding in Gloucester. They were married at Lydbrook Baptist Chapel on April 11, 1891. his bride lived at Ruardean. Mrs Brain was Miss Annie Bess Palmer, and both families are well known on the Eastern side of the Forest.


Using FamilySearch this appears to be Annie's family a week or so before she married;

1891 Census; Cinder Hill, Ruardean, Ross District, Herefordshire.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William E Palmer Head M 51 Boot & shoe maker. Herefordshire, England
Ann Palmer Wife F 45 Laundress. Kingstanley, Gloucestershire, England
Annie B Palmer Daughter F 21 Single. Waters Cross, Gloucestershire, England
William J Palmer Son M 8 Scholar. Staffordshire, England
Mary Evans Boarder F 76 Widow, retired lady. Herefordshire, England

Cinder Hill is at the western/Lydbrook side of Ruardean, see this prior thread
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=46805

----

1881 Census; Woodgreen Rooth Street, Wednesbury, Staffordshire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Wm Edwd Palmer Head M 40 Groom. Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Ann Palmer Wife F 35 Wife. Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Anne Bess Palmer Daughter F 11 Scholar. Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Emily M M Palmer Daughter F 5 Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England

For background info for Rooth Street, Wood Green, Wednesbury see http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/wednesburybook/places1.htm

The town was renowned for it's coal mines and many heavy engineering concerns, including railway train builders Metro Cammell.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/files/eng/STS/Wednesbury/Pitt1817.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/STS/Wednesbury
http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/Wednesbury/PatentShaft.htm

----

1871 Census; St Peter, Herefordshire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William Palmer Head M 31 Gardener. Wigmore, Herefordshire
Ann Palmer Wife F 24 Laundress. King's Stanley, Gloucestershire
Ann B Palmer Daughter F 1 Lydbrook, Gloucestershire

St Peters is a Parish within the city of Hereford.
https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Hereford_St_Peter,_Herefordshire_Genealogy
Wigmore is in the far north of the county,
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HEF/Wigmore/Gaz1868

King's Stanley is across the Severn from the Forest, near Stroud.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/KingsStanley/Gaz1868

From FreeBMD,
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1869 (>99%)
Palmer Annie Bess Ross 6a 441

This MAY be her parent's marriage ???,

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1865 (>99%)
Lusty Ann Ross 6a 985
Palmer William Ross 6a 985

----

I half-expected to find that William's father was called Edward.
However this looks like our family;

More from Familysearch site;
1861 Census; Mill Street, Leominster, Herefordshire, Wales.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Elizabeth Palmer Head F 51 Downton, Shropshire
Martha Palmer Daughter F 23 Unmarried. Milliner & Dressmaker. Deerfold, Herefordshire
William Palmer Son M 21 Boot & Shoemaker, Deerfold, Herefordshire

Deerfold is just a couple of miles from Wigmore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingen,_Herefordshire

----

1851 Census; Dilwyn, Weobley, Herefordshire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Thomas Palmer Head M 46 Farm labourer. Biton, Radnorshire
Elizabeth Palmer Wife F 41 Downton, Shropshire
Susannah Palmer Daughter F 21 Unmarried. Presteigne, Radnorshire
William Palmer Son M 11 Scholar. Wigmore, Herefordshire

Dilwyn is just a few miles south of Wigmore.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HEF/Wigmore
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/HEF/Dilwyn

----

1841 Census; Limebrook Township, Wigmore, Herefordshire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Thomas Palmer M 30-34 Herefordshire
Elizabeth Palmer F 29-33 Herefordshire
Susan Palmer F 11 Not in County
Ann Palmer F 9 Not in County
Thomas Palmer M 7 Herefordshire
Martha Palmer F 4 Herefordshire
William Palmer M 1 Herefordshire

see http://texts.wishful-thinking.org.uk/Littlebury1876/Wigmore.html
http://www.mortimervillages.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Wigmore-History-Trail.pdf

England Births and Christenings
Name William Palmer
Gender Male
Christening Date 02 Feb 1840
Christening Place WIGMORE,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Palmer
Mother's Name Elizabeth


This MAY be his parent's marriage, Downton is just 2 miles from Wigmore.

Name Thomas Palmer
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Morris
Event Date 13 Jun 1829
Event Place Downton,Hereford,England

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKN9-LJP

Roots of Annie Bess PALMER living in Lydbrook c1891

by BigEd, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 11:02 (1237 days ago) @ Jefff

Thanks Jeff for all your input......I really do appreciate it!

"1891 Census; Cinder Hill, Ruardean, Ross District, Herefordshire.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William E Palmer Head M 51 Boot & shoe maker. Herefordshire, England
Ann Palmer Wife F 45 Laundress. Kingstanley, Gloucestershire, England
Annie B Palmer Daughter F 21 Single. Waters Cross, Gloucestershire, England
William J Palmer Son M 8 Scholar. Staffordshire, England
Mary Evans Boarder F 76 Widow, retired lady. Herefordshire, England"

1891 Census gives Annie B's birthplace as "Waters Cross, Gloucestershire, England"......Is this the same place as Lydbrook, Ross District, Herefordshire, England?

Blessings
Ed

Roots of Annie Bess PALMER living in Lydbrook c1891

by shepway @, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 11:55 (1237 days ago) @ BigEd

Waters Cross is in Lower Lydbrook.
Search Google Maps: Waterscross, Lydbrook, GL17 9NU
This reveals a Farm in that name.

Mike

Roots of Annie Bess PALMER living in Lydbrook c1891

by BigEd, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 15:50 (1237 days ago) @ BigEd

Okay.....I found waterscross farm! Sorry for the silly questions , but I'm not familiar with the area.
Ed

Roots of Annie Bess PALMER living in Lydbrook c1891

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 17:10 (1237 days ago) @ BigEd

Hi Ed, you're very welcome for the help, hopefully I've also shown you some pointers as to how to trace the family using websites which I believe are freely available to you as well as here in the UK, certainly the FamilySearch one is.

Glad you've found Waters Cross. I can fully appreciate you're not familiar with the area, so don't worry about asking "silly questions", I'm an expert at doing that !. Personally I think this hobby is most rewarding when researching something yourself, but of course sometimes we all need to ask help from others. In fact I'm not particularly familiar with the Lydbrook side of the Forest, yes I visited my dad's mum's house in Joys Green nr Ruardean several times as a child in the 70s, but I moved away from the FoD in the 80s. It's only these last 5 years or so I've got to know the Lydbrook side of the Forest and thats mainly thro' this website and studying several maps etc; I just wish I was able to spend more time actually visiting it in person. It is a tricky area to get your head around wrt the census's, being on the Wye (the traditional border), so it was sometimes considered Glostershire, sometimes Herefordshire and sometimes even Monmouthshire hence Wales !
Regarding old placenames, as you'll know some names change with time, and sadly smaller places can disappear completely. Only last year a new Scottish site has come online which is great for old Ordnance Survey maps, here's the most detailed one (6" series) one for your area c1891 census; you can zoom into it with your mouse wheel, Waters Cross is shown in the upper L/H corner, overlooking the Wye at the bottom of it's bend, above the "k" in "Lydbrook".
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101453358
In case you're wondering, the nearby LB stands for letter Box.
http://maps.nls.uk/os/abbrev/l.html

In earlier years they had "their own" pub, the Kings Head, altho I don't think it was there long as I cannot find any references whatsoever to it in any of my books etc, see 1879 map
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101453361

I know I'm biased as I've always been fascinated by maps, but I strongly recommend you spending some time getting to know your way around the Scottish map site, as well as the various maps within this FoD FH website, see the dropdown menu below "The Forest of Dean" on the top blue banner - this site has a huge amount of info waiting to be discovered.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/the-forest-of-dean/maps-of-the-forest

Happy hunting !, Jeff

Roots of Annie Bess PALMER living in Lydbrook c1891

by shepway @, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 17:57 (1237 days ago) @ Jefff

There is a very good website dedicated to Gloucestershire Pubs - http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/ and a search of this site for the Kings Head at Waters Cross proves negative. However there was a pub known as the Queens Head and if you search for this you will find it on Page 12 (see drop down list at bottom of search results page).
Also on this site is a transcript of Kellys Directory page for Lydbrook and you will find the Queens Head at Waters Cross mentioned.
Kelly's Directory pages are to be found under Resources in Top Menu.

Mike

New Inn > Parrot > Queens Head; Waters Cross, Lydbrook

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 19:34 (1237 days ago) @ shepway

Aha, thanks Mike, well spotted sir !. Yes I did search Geoff Sandles' GlosPubs site, and one of his books amongst others, but as you say the Kings Head drew blanks. Didnt think laterally, foolishly !. I see this particular Queen's Head (not the one in Upper Lydbrook) does indeed have a long history, which I should have expected!, it was previously the New Inn aka the Parrot. I think the "New Inn" entry on the GlosPubs site can be mis-read into thinking this New Inn became the better-known Courtfield Arms at Lower Lydbrook, whereas in actual fact that New Inn was a different pub altogether, albeit very close by.

This accidentally proves something I was thinking about when posting to Ed, wrt the old maps site and how placenames change with time. As you know, the Army surveyors creating the O.S. maps were often not familiar with local placenames and dialects, so they would write down what they thought they heard from a local, hence early maps can have errors, and this proves it. Especially if that local was being mischievous as occasionally happened.

Re the Kelly's Directory pages, here's the Lydbrook page
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/resources/kelly-s-directory-1879/62-lydb...

Thanks again Mike, good to know it's not just me with an interest in pubs ;-)

New Inn > Parrot > Queens Head; Waters Cross, Lydbrook

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, February 22, 2017, 20:25 (1237 days ago) @ Jefff

Forgot to mention, Waters Cross is, not surprisingly, the site of an old ferry. The ever-reliable british History site says;

Waterscross, on the Wye at the foot of Vention Lane, was mentioned by that name from 1642 and may have been the site of an ancient river crossing, but its use is not recorded until 1852 when a ferry operated there. Later there was a ferry downstream, just above Lydbrook, to Courtfield, in Welsh Bicknor (Herefs., formerly Mon.), the seat of the Vaughan family and the site of a Roman Catholic chapel. Both ferries no longer operated in 1990.

And later,

Waterscross had the New Inn in Vention Lane by 1829. Known later as the King's (or Queen's) Head it was closed c. 1890.

Finally,

In 1820 E. J. Scott, a London solicitor, built a tramroad to link a colliery at Moorwood with the Wye at Waterscross. The line, which incorporated an inclined plane running down Vention Lane and crossing the Bishopswood tramroad, was opposed by the Severn & Wye company and was taken up c. 1823. At that time a Lydney firm traded at a wharf midway between Waterscross and Bishopswood, and in the mid 1830s the partnership of William Montague and Charles Church of Gloucester occupied four of the coal wharves at Bishopswood. By the late 1840s the only wharves in use above Lydbrook were those at Waterscross and midway between Waterscross and Bishopswood and few if any of the Ruardean men living outside Lydbrook and Bishopswood worked as bargemen or watermen. The Lydbrook-Bishopswood tramroad, the northern end of which was removed after the closure of the Bishopswood ironworks, ran as far as the Ross road in 1833. It carried little traffic and the track was taken up in 1874. The line's course to the road, winding to maintain a steady gradient, was still clearly visible in 1990.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp231-247

Also see this prior thread and associated photos re a Waterscross ferryman.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=44973

Children of James BRAIN & Annie Bess PALMER, East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 23:18 (1247 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Gloucester Journal - Saturday 26 April 1941

GLO'STER GOLDEN WEDDING
Mr and Mrs James Brain, formerly of Cinderford, have celebrated their Golden Wedding in Gloucester. They were married at Lydbrook Baptist Chapel on April 11, 1891. Mr Brain, who is about 73 and still very fit, came from Ruardean Hill


I THINK this is James, but it's not a rare name on Ruardean Hill, so ??

1871, Ruardean Hill, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Brain Head M 28 Married. Coal miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Brain Wife F 27 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Alice Brain Daughter F 8 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia Brain Daughter F 5 East Dean, Gloucestershire
James Brain Son M 2 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Elizabeth Brain Daughter F 0 East Dean, Gloucestershire


---

So, if correct, James is born abt 1869, as per the newspaper article & like wife Annie. If he was born locally, then this is him, the name's not as common as I thought, again from FreeBMD, cannot find him in this site's PRs;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1868 (>99%)
BRAIN James Westbury S. 6a 226 [/b]

To my surprise there are none in Monmouth or Ross Districts.


1881, Ruardean Hill, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Brain Head M 29 Married. Miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Jane Brain Wife F 36 Married. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Alice Brain Daughter F 18 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
James Brain Son M 13 Scholar. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Elizabeth Brain Daughter F 11 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Thos Brain Son M 6 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

(SEE NOTE ON NEXT POST REF GIVEN AGE OF JOHN BRAIN)

---

1891 ???

---

In many ways, the following seems a good fit, at an Inn on Cinderford's High Street.
But why M instead of Annie Bessie ??.
Need to see the actual image, FamilySearch do have a reputation for unlikely transcriptions .. ??


1901, High Street, Woodside St Stephens, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Brain Head M 32 Inn keeper. Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
M Brain Wife F 31 Lydbrook, Gloucestershire
Annie M Brain Daughter F 6 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
William J Brain Son M 5 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Emily B Brain Daughter F 4 Cinderford
Edgar J Brain Son M 2 Cinderford
Ivy L Brain Daughter F 0 Cinderford
Annie S Pimple Servant F 16 General Domestic Servant. London

I think this was at the afore-mentioned Bell in the Lower High Street, see next post.

Eldest daughter Annie M Brain could well be named after her mother. Are the "M"s actually "B"s ?.
The following Baptism PRs fit very nicely, wrt place & occupation etc, from the FoD website.
Cannot find Marriages etc except where shown, or on later "pub" post.

--

Record_ID: 58601
Entry_Number: 521
Year: 1894
Month: Jun
Day: 10
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: Annie Maud May
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Bessie
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: Edward Parnell Rector
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 66
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: B650

--

Record_ID: 58631
Entry_Number: 551
Year: 1896
Month: Mar
Day: 9
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: William Joseph James
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Annie Bessie
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: E Parnell Rector
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: privately baptised
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 69
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: B650

--

Record_ID: 58647
Entry_Number: 567
Year: 1897
Month: Apr
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: Emily Beatrice
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Bernie
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Cinderford
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: E Parnell
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 71
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: B650

--

Record_ID: 58686
Entry_Number: 606
Year: 1899
Month: May
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: Edgar John
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Bessie
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Cinderford
Occupation: Inn keeper
Officiating_Minister: Claude W Parnell
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 76
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: B650

--

Record_ID: 108469
Entry_Number: 941
Year: 1908
Month: Apr
Day: 22
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: Ivy Alexandria Sophia
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Annie Bessie
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Cinderford
Occupation: Publican
Officiating_Minister: H E Barnet Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 118
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: B650

Record_ID: 31269
Entry_Number: 315
Year: 1922
Month: May
Day: 6
Grooms_Surname: BROOKES
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas Edwin
Grooms_Age: 27
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: School Teacher
Grooms_Residence: Brooklyn House Clearwell
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Brookes
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Ore Setter
Brides_Surname: BRAIN
Brides_Forenames: Ivy Alexandra Sophia
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: Shorthand Typist
Brides_Residence: 4 George Street Gloucester
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Brain
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Hotel Proprietor
Licence_or_Banns: Licence
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Wilfred Samuel Mansfield
Witness_2: F. C. Swift
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: W. F. Wood Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 158
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex_Groom: B622
Soundex_Bride: B650

Parents of James BRAIN, b1869 Ruardean Hill.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 17:32 (1243 days ago) @ Jefff

1871, Ruardean Hill, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Brain Head M 28 Married. Coal miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Brain Wife F 27 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Alice Brain Daughter F 8 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia Brain Daughter F 5 East Dean, Gloucestershire
James Brain Son M 2 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Elizabeth Brain Daughter F 0 East Dean, Gloucestershire


---

1881, Ruardean Hill, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Brain Head M 29 Married. Miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Jane Brain Wife F 36 Married. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Alice Brain Daughter F 18 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
James Brain Son M 13 Scholar. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Elizabeth Brain Daughter F 11 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Thos Brain Son M 6 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England


Again from the free-to-use FamilySearch website, I think this is James' father John Brain, born abt 1852 according to the above 1881 Census, with his own parents James & Ann.
However, John's given age in the 1881 Census is clearly in error wrt the 1871 Census, and so the 1881 should probably be "39" not "29", hence John was born abt 1842, which fits the 1861 & 1851 below, and this Baptism Record.

Record_ID: 76933
Entry_Number: 152
Year: 1841
Month: Jun
Day: 6
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: John
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: R.T. Budd
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 19
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: B650

--

1861; Reardean Hill, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Brain Head M 45 Coal miner. Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Ann Brain Wife F 44 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
John Brain Son M 20 Coal miner. Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Moses Brain Son M 18 Coal miner. Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
James Brain Son M 15 Coal miner. Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
William Brain Son M 13 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Joseph Brain Son M 11 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Brain Daughter F 10 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Emma Brain Daughter F 6 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Timothy Brain Son M 0 Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire


--

1851; ???, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Brain Head M 34 Coal miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann Brain Wife F 33 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Brain Son M 9 Scholar. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Moses Brain Son M 7 East Dean, Gloucestershire
James Brain Son M 5 East Dean, Gloucestershire
William Brain Son M 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Joseph Brain Son M 1 East Dean, Gloucestershire

--


I'm a little surprised this family don't seem to have prior mentions within this forum. I suspect they are linked into this thread, please see Admin's post.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?mode=thread&id=19655


1841; Morse, Ruardean, Ross District, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James Brain M 24-28 Gloucestershire
Ann Brain F 23-27 Gloucestershire
Child Brain M 0 Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Mathwes F 28-32 Gloucestershire

Looks like "child" is our John, probably born abt late March 1841. I cannot find his Baptism in this site's PRs.

However I can find what looks like his parent's Marriage;

Record_ID: 57031
Entry_Number: 24
Year: 1839
Month: Feb
Day: 18
Grooms_Surname: BRAIN
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: 21
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Little dean hill
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Brain
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: HARRIS
Brides_Forenames: Ann
Brides_Age: 24
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Ruardean hill
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Harris
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Carpenter
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: James Harris
Witness_2: Susannah Hayward
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: John Chell
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AO19/11
Page_Number: 12
Parish_Chapel: Walford
Soundex_Groom: B650
Soundex_Bride: H620


So James was born abt 1818, but which (if either) is his Baptism ?

Record_ID: 56666
Entry_Number: 192
Year: 1816
Month: Dec
Day: 25
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: James
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Morse
Occupation: Shoemaker
Officiating_Minister: T. D. Fosbrooke Min[iste]r
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: the son of. Privately baptised Aug[ust] 30th last
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 24
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: B650

OR, MAYBE ??

Record_ID: 58815
Entry_Number: 111
Year: 1817
Month: Apr
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: James
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Jn HORLICK
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean Congregational
Soundex: B650

Parents & siblings of James BRAIN, b1869 Ruardean Hill.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 18:05 (1243 days ago) @ Jefff

Back to son John, in later life, this 1901 Census shows he was indeed born abt 1842.

1901; Ruardean Hill, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Brain Head M 59 Retired Coal Hewer. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Brain Wife F 56 Grocer. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Brain Daughter F 31 Grocer Assistant. East Dean, Gloucestershire

I suspect John has "retired" early due to ill-health or similar. Cannot find an Inquest Record for him.

Searching the 1911 Census is difficult using FamilySearch as it only displays records of individuals, but not as households. These individually-found records MAY be our household, altho not sure abt Jane as a common name in the area.

Name John Brain
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
County Gloucestershire
Parish East Dean
Sub-District East Dean
Registration District Westbury On Severn
Gender Male
Age 69
Birthplace Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Record Type Household

Name Jane Brain
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
County Gloucestershire
Parish East Dean
Sub-District East Dean
Registration District Westbury On Severn
Gender Female
Age 66
Birthplace Drybrook, Gloucestershire
Record Type Household

Name Jane Elizabeth Brain
Event Type Census
Event Date 1911
County Gloucestershire
Parish East Dean
Sub-District East Dean
Registration District Westbury On Severn
Gender Female
Age 40
Birthplace Ruardean Hill, Gloucestershire
Record Type Household


This could be our Jane, who we know was born abt 1845.

Record_ID: 248858
Entry_Number: 366
Year: 1914
Month: Jan
Day: 22
Surname: BRAIN
Forenames: Jane
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Age_at_death: 69 years
Officiating_Minister: James Lawton Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/14
Page_No: 46
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: B650


Suggesting this is our John, who we know was born abt March 1841.

Record_ID: 250074
Entry_Number: 1583
Year: 1933
Month: Feb
Day: 23
Surname: BRAIN
Forenames: John
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Age_at_death: 91 years
Officiating_Minister: George R Newman Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/14
Page_No: 198
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: B650


Searching this site's Register of Freeminers also shows a few Johns in Ruardean Hill/Woodside, this could be ours;

Record_Number: 1373
Forename: John
Surname: BRAIN
Calculated Year of Birth: 1841
Age: 33
Day: 30
Month: Dec
Year: 1874
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Remarks: Register of Baptism produced
Memorandum:
Soundex: B650

--

Parents & siblings of James BRAIN, b1869 Ruardean Hill.

by cmfenton @, Ferndown, Dorset, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 19:31 (1243 days ago) @ Jefff

This particular entry in the 1911 census is:

John Brain 69 head b Ruardean Hill Retired Coal Hewer
Jane Brain 66 wife b Drybrook
Jane Elizabeth Brain 40 daughter b Ruardean Hill Shopkeeper (Grocery/provisions)
Joseph Brain 28 son b Ruardean Hill Shopkeeper (Grocery/provisions)
Frederick John Brain 20 son b Ruardean Hill Brewer's clerk

Also records 7 children, all still living

I imagine these Brains are linked somewhere to those in my tree - but most are 3rd or more remote cousins so it's not easy to pinpoint the connection!

Regards

-Colin

Parents & siblings of James BRAIN, b1869 Ruardean Hill.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, February 16, 2017, 20:49 (1243 days ago) @ cmfenton

Thanks very much for that Colin !.

As it was relatively recent, I did try searching Trade Directories etc for evidence of the Grocery business, but no luck. What I did find is that it seems most of Ruardean Hill especially the Morse/Drybrook side were owned by various Brains; altho as you say they were not necessarily that closely related to each other by then. And there was me ignorantly thinking wrt my own trees that "Ruden-ill" was largely Roberts territory !
I now need to find my copy of Maurice Bent's book "Highest Point of Dean", to see if that includes anything helpful to this thread.
atb Jeff.

Parents & siblings of James BRAIN, b1869 Ruardean Hill.

by cmfenton @, Ferndown, Dorset, Friday, February 17, 2017, 09:25 (1242 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

My copy of Maurice's book is at hand so I will look through for any relevant Brain references. Apart from a first cousin of my mother's who married a Brain my connections with that family name are very remote as I indicated. "Rudden-hill" is all Williams and Chivers as far as I'm concerned (plus Meeks mainly from Drybrook).

Regards

-Colin

Moses BRAIN, Ruardean, Foxes Bridge colliery manager.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 23:46 (1247 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

BNA Gloucester Journal - Saturday 26 April 1941

GLO'STER GOLDEN WEDDING
Mr and Mrs James Brain, formerly of Cinderford, have celebrated their Golden Wedding in Gloucester. Mr Brain's uncle, Mr Moses Brain, was manager of the old Foxes Bridge colliery.

I suspect this MAY be OUR Moses, but needs checking.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=16123

Moses is not mentioned by name, but here's a detailed history of the Foxes Bridge Colliery.
http://lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/CoalFoxesBridge.html
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/historic/foxbrdg1.htm

Foxes Bridge was one of the Forest's larger collieries, in 1896 for example it employed almost 600 men.
http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/f1019.htm

Photos here.
http://forest-of-dean.net/gallery/hale_people/pages/page_11.html
http://www.forestprints.co.uk/foxes_bridge_colliery_v03.htm
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Cinderford/Foxes-Bridge-Colliery-Cinderford.htm
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Cinderford/Foxes-Bridge-Colliery.htm
http://www.forestofdeanhistory.org.uk/resources/sites-in-the-forest/foxes-bridge-colliery/

He's also mentioned in this post abt a local history book.

"I have a copy of a story which was in the Gloucester Journal on 3 June
1893 concerning an accident at Foxes Bridge Colliery in which three men, Thomas Mountjoy, Harry Milling and Edwin Bowkett were killed. Other people connected with the mine mentioned in the article were J S Martin, district Mines Inspector; G H Rowlinson, miners' agent; J S Bradstock who appeared at the inquiry on behalf of the colliery company; Arnold Thomas, managing director; G J E MacMurtrie, the local manager; Sidney Hale, fitter at the colliery; John Rogers, banksman; Tom Brain, engineman; Moses Brain, manager; and Charles Baynham, under manager."

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GLOUCESTER/1998-03/0889567839

James BRAIN, innkeeper in Cinderford.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, February 13, 2017, 00:31 (1247 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

BNA Gloucester Journal - Saturday 26 April 1941

GLO'STER GOLDEN WEDDING
Mr and Mrs James Brain, formerly of Cinderford, have celebrated their Golden Wedding in Gloucester. Mr and Mrs Brain were in business in Cinderford for many years. They kept the Old Bell public house at the bottom of the High Street, and when that was closed they went to the Railway Hotel, near the station. Just before the Great War Mr and Mrs Brain took a boarding house in George Street, Gloucester, and they have now been in retirement for about 10 years. Two daughters, Mrs Godfrey Moffatt, the Welsh Harp, London Road and Mrs S. May, the Railway Hotel, Bristol Road, are engaged in similar business in Gloucester.


It appears that the 1901 Census posted earlier was at the Bell Inn. I'm from Cinderford but it's a new name to me, I cannot find any mention of it anywhere in this forum or elsewhere online. The only reference that I can find in a book, sorry no pictures, states that "this Beerhouse called the Bell Inn was purchased by Alfred Wintle before passing to Wintle's Forest Brewery at Mitcheldean. James Brain was recorded at the Bell in 1903 and may have been the last beer tender before it closed in 1911".

James is listed in this 1902 Trade Directory, presumably at the Bell.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/cinderford1902.htm


The family then went to the Railway Hotel, opposite Cinderford Station and a far bigger and better-known concern, and hopefully doing good trade pre WW1 when the station was still an important link for Cinderford.
This first photo could almost have been taken from the roof of the Railway Hotel.
http://forest-of-dean.net/gallery/cinderford/pages/page_37.html
http://forest-of-dean.net/gallery/cinderford/pages/page_10.html

The Railway Hotel can be seen in the background of this photo, just right of centre with red roof.
http://forest-of-dean.net/gallery/latest_additions/pages/page_1.html

This pub was still in business until long after the station was closed and redeveloped into a housing estate, eventually closing c2007 and due to be redeveloped for flats in 2016.

Full history and photos here
http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/AllGlosPubsDatabase/RAIGConnection.php?pubid1=1272

----------------

Re Mrs Godfrey Moffatt, The Welsh Harp, 36 London Rd, Gloucester;
another popular pub and rare music venue now closed, see
http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/AllGlosPubsDatabase/RAIGConnection.php?pubid1=1922
http://www.british-towns.net/england/midland/gloucestershire/gloucester/gloucester/albu...
http://pubshistory.com/Gloucestershire/Gloucester/WelshHarp.shtml

I wonder if it's coincidence that a Grantley BRAIN was landlord before James Brain's son-in-law Godfrey Moffatt ?? --- see below.


FreeBMD;
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1927 (>99%)
BRAIN Emily B Moffatt Gloucester 6a 746
MOFFATT Godfrey H Brain Gloucester 6a 746


----


Re Mrs S.May, Railway Hotel, Bristol Road, Gloucester; see
http://www.darrelkirby.com/storyofgloucesterspubs/extra_pubs/railwayinn.htm

FreeBMD;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1915 (>99%)
Brain Annie M M May Gloucester 6a 879
May Alfred S Brain Gloucester 6a 879


===========================


Re Grantley Brain, these are 3 of only 4 records for this name on the whole FreeBMD website !

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Mar 1875 (>99%)
BRAIN Grantley Monmouth 11a 30

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1937 (>99%)
Brain Grantley Rudge Gloucester C. 6a 1192
Rudge Ethel M B Brain Gloucester C. 6a 1192

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/DoB District Vol Page
Deaths Sep 1969 (>99%)
BRAIN Grantley 10Fe1875 Gloucester C 7b

Full census details on free FamilySearch site,
https://familysearch.org/search

eg

1901 Pillowell, St Pauls Parkend, West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Absolom Brain Head M 72 Living on own means. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Fannie Brain Wife F 56 West Dean, Gloucestershire
William Brain Son M 27 Coalminer hewer. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Grantley Brain Son M 25 Coalminer hewer. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom Brain Son M 15 Laborer at coalmine. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Fred Jones Boarder M 28 Coalminer hewer. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Charlie Powell Boarder M 20 Bootmaker. Sondley, Gloucestershire


Earlier census' show Absolom was skilled, an "engineer" in 1861, and "Engine driver" in 1871;

1871 Pillowell, St Pauls Parkend, West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Absalome Brain Head M 42 Engine driver. Pillowell, Gloucestershire
Fanny Brain Wife F 27 Moseley Green, Gloucestershire
Lydia Brain Daughter F 8 Yorkley, Gloucestershire
Thomas Brain Son M 3 Pillowell, Gloucestershire
Louisa Brain Daughter F 0 Pillowell, Gloucestershire

Record_ID: 14813
Entry_Number: 103
Year: 1865
Month: Dec
Day: 30
Grooms_Surname: BRAIN
Grooms_Forenames: Absalom
Grooms_Age: 32
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Engine driver
Grooms_Residence: Pillowell
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Brain
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: KEAR
Brides_Forenames: Frances Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 22
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Moseley
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Kear
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: license
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: John Shingleton Elsworth
Witness_2: Henry Gunter
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Jo[hn] Jo[seph] Elsworth incumbent
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P245 IN 1/21
Page_Number: 52
Parish_Chapel: Parkend
Soundex_Groom: B650
Soundex_Bride: K600

So not obviously linked to the Ruardean BRAINS, not a rare surname in the area, more work needed.

???

James BRAIN, innkeeper in Cinderford.

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Monday, February 13, 2017, 19:31 (1246 days ago) @ Jefff

The Bell, Cinderford, gets a dozen or so mentions in the BNA after 1900. Most are to do with misdemeanours committed by customers but there is also this one,

BNA Gloucester Journal - Saturday 22 October 1910

At Mr. T. Whatley's instance, temporary transfer was granted of the license of the Railway HoteL,Cinderford, from Samuel Meredith to James Brain, landlord of the Bell Inn, High street, Cinderford. It transpired that the Bell is one of the houses to be closed under the operation of the Compensation Act.

The Compensation Act probably refers to the Public House Licensing Acts (1904 – 1910). Licensing Magistrates could now refuse to renew a pub’s licence if it was deemed that the establishment was unnecessary to provide for the needs of the public. This was aimed at reducing the very large number of pubs and beer houses which then existed and arose, at least in part, from the prevailing, strong temperance movement. Compensation was payable but the owner usually got the lion’s share as illustrated below,

BNA Gloucestershire Echo - Tuesday 04 April 1911

GLOUCESTER QUARTER SESSIONS

…. The compensation authorities had settled the shares of persons entitled to compensation as follows…………..

Bell Inn, Cinderford, James Brain. licensee, £135, Francis Wintle, owner, £1.067

The earliest reference I can see is in 1870 when it was kept by William and Charlotte SLEEMAN.

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by selbyfamily @, Sunday, February 05, 2017, 10:22 (1254 days ago) @ BigEd

This ties in with the baptism - Thomas Edwin Brooks (no E) b Dec q 1894, Monmouth 11a 23. Can't find him on a census at the moment.
Sheila

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by selbyfamily @, Sunday, February 05, 2017, 10:28 (1254 days ago) @ selbyfamily

Now found him(Edwin Brookes) in 1901 and 1911 at Clearwell with parents Thomas and Alice and step-sister Winifred Morgan. The 1911 Census states that Alice had had three children, 2 of whom had died.
Hope this is helpful.
Sheila

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN

by BigEd, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 14:23 (1250 days ago) @ selbyfamily

Thanks Sheila,
"The 1911 Census states that Alice had had three children, 2 of whom had died.".....Does this mean that Teddy out survived his half sister Winifred MORGAN and his brother William Henry BROOKES? If so how did they die?

William Henry BROOKES born & died 1895

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 21:33 (1250 days ago) @ BigEd

Thanks Sheila,
"The 1911 Census states that Alice had had three children, 2 of whom had died.".....Does this mean that Teddy out survived his half sister Winifred MORGAN and his brother William Henry BROOKES? If so how did they die?

Hi Ed,
MPG tells us William was baptised August 1895 (full PR in this site's database).

FreeBMD carries these records, it seems likely they are both the same boy.

Births Sep 1895 (>99%)
Brookes William Henry Monmouth 11a 25

Deaths Sep 1895 (>99%)
Brookes William Henry 0 Monmouth 11a 12

I cannot find William in the later Census' using FamilySearch site.

Here is the Burial from this sites PRs; the dates plus placename indicates it is our William. Perhaps he was very poorly from Birth, hence the private Baptism...

Record_ID: 10019
Entry_Number: 587
Year: 1895
Month: Sep
Day: 7
Surname: BROOKS
Forenames: William Henry
Residence: Clearwell
Age_at_death: 14 days
Officiating_Minister: C. Floddard Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/7
Page_No: 75
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex: B620

Ed, please see my other post re Winifred.

If I correctly understand Sheila's post wrt 1911 Census, Alice lost another child too. I've searched this site's PRs for a possible Brook(e)s or Morgan burial in Clearwell, but haven't found any that seem to fit.
???

I'm surprised to find that ticking the Soundex box when searching "Brooks" does not enable us to also find "Brookes" in the same search, altho it does find "Brooke" and many other names that don't sound much like either. Hence I've searched both spellings separately.

William Henry BROOKES born & died 1895

by selbyfamily @, Friday, February 10, 2017, 09:10 (1249 days ago) @ Jefff

I haven't done a search for the "2 who had died" but I suppose they could have been born but died and not registered due to how many weeks they were when born. There has been a lot of talk around this in the last few weeks after the harrowing story on Coronation Street. I think they have to be about 22 weeks before being registered. I have found other instances like this when I have not been able to find the other children with certainty.
Sheila

Query re Registering Birth & subsequent Death in Hospital ?

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, February 10, 2017, 17:36 (1249 days ago) @ selbyfamily

Hi Sheila,
I'm afraid I don't follow Coronation Street, when you say 22 weeks I presume you're referring to still-births ? My quick search on the net suggests that the UK system currently refers to 24 weeks, although I've seen several mentions of 22 weeks on US and Australian forums.
https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-and-analysis/analysis/registration-of-stillbirths-and...

This leads me to ask a question I've been puzzling over for a few years, I hope someone on the forum might be able to clarify the procedure of registering births, please ?

My brother-in-law was born at the Dilke Hospital Cinderford in 1950, his birth records are fully available on FreeBMD etc etc.

His parent's told him that he was one of twins, and his twin sister was alive when born, and given a name, yet sadly died some hours later at the hospital, she was born with her cord around her throat. She was then buried within an existing family grave at Lydbrook Churchyard. My brother has searched the graveyard but cannot find any indication of his sister's resting place. This was abt 10 years ago, and after his parents had died, so they cannot add any more information.

Given that his sister was born at a hospital in modern times, I would have expected there to be full records of her birth and death, especially as we understand she was alive when born... not that I know the medical definition of "stillborn". However I'm unable to find any such records online, or a burial record with the PRs. My brother-in-law hasn't yet enquired officially.

I wonder if anyone knows of the procedure for registering a child's birth. I'm certain the hospital would have made their own records. From reading various government websites it seems to be the parent's responsibility for officially registering the birth, whether alive and normal, or a stillbirth. I must admit I'd assumed that in modern NHS times this would be done by the hospital. I guess it's this official registration record that then becomes transcribed onto FreeBMD, GlosBMD etc, and not the hospital's own records or notes. I also don't know whether registration was obligatory, or only if parents wanted ?.
Despite their grief at the time, we think my brother-in-law's parents would have wanted to register their only daughter's brief life, especially as they gave her a name and were adamant she wasn't stillborn, and could have legally done this within the month or so after the event.

I appreciate this maybe a difficult enquiry, and perhaps beyond the scope of this forum, but if anyone can help explain or clarify things then we'd be delighted to know.

Many thanks, Jeff.

Query re Registering Birth & subsequent Death in Hospital ?

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Friday, February 10, 2017, 21:30 (1249 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

Maybe not much help but, for what it's worth, my brother was born in 1952 and died one day later. He was born at home but was transfered to the Dilke where he died. My father registered both the birth and death a couple of days later. So I think it probably was the parents responsibility to do it. Whether it was obligatory in the 50's I don't know.

One other thing, for years I was unable to find any information about my brother until I came across his burial record. At first I ignored it as I didn't believe it could be him as the name was different but it was and, it turns out, I had misunderstood, many years previously, what my Mother had told me and his name was not what I thought it was. Is it possible the name of the twin was not what your BIL thinks it was? I found my brother's burial record by searching for any infants who had been buried around that time without using a name search.

Query re Registering Birth & subsequent Death in Hospital ?

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 16:55 (1248 days ago) @ probinson

Thanks very much for your reply, very interesting.
Re searching the records, yes I've tried all sorts and from all angles that I can think of, including searching for just the surname and then just "female" as was sometimes recorded. However, as far as I can see, the events have not been included within the general-access records within FreeBMD etc. To be honest it's often intrigued me, particularly back in the early days of Registration in the 1840s, that many researchers seem to assume that ALL BMD events were definitely recorded, when the onus was on the parents to do so, who might have to travel a fari way at their cost and perhaps losing wages, and despite occasionally having something to hide if the child was born out of wedlock, for example.
As you say it's possible my brother-in-law's story has been misinterpreted in some ways, altho I do think that's unlikely.

Thanks again for your input. If I was still resident in the Forest (I can dream..), then I'd have visited the Dilke and asked the medical staff themselves what the likely records might be.

J

Query re Registering Birth & subsequent Death in Hospital ?

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 17:11 (1248 days ago) @ Jefff

Do you know which church she was buried in and are the images from that church's records on line? Only I found my brother's details by manually going through the images, not using any transcription or search engine. It won't necessarily lead you to birth and death records but would, at least, confirm name and date.

Query re Registering Birth & subsequent Death in Hospital ?

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 18:40 (1248 days ago) @ probinson

Good point sir !
Yes, it was Lydbrook. To be honest it was 4 years ago when I last searched the records, since then more records from 1950 have probably become available online, and the PR images weren't accessible then as they are now; so def worth searching again. Unfortunately this site's PRs don't include Lydbrook burials since 1941, I don't know yet whether the same applies to Ancestry who have the images.
That said, we're not certain abt the exact circumstances of the baby's burial, so we may never find which grave she's in, or how/if it was recorded. Thanks for your suggestions, I'll search online again, and will update if I find anything.

William Henry BROOKES born & died 1895

by BigEd, Friday, February 10, 2017, 09:23 (1249 days ago) @ Jefff

Thanks Jeff.........I'm most grateful for all you've done to enlighten me.

Thomas Edwin BROOKES & Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN (+ MORGAN)

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 15:00 (1255 days ago) @ BigEd

Assume you have read the marriage transcript on this website

Marriage at

Clearwell : 6 May 1922 (by Licence)

Thomas Edwin BROOKES aged 27 (=c1895)
Bachelor, occupation: School Teacher
residence: Brooklyn House, Clearwell

father: Thomas BROOKES : occupation: Ore Setter


Ivy Alexandra Sophia BRAIN aged 21: Spinster
occupation: Shorthand Typist
residence: 4 George Street, Gloucester
father: James BRAIN, occupation: Hotel Proprietor

both signs

witness 1: Wilfred Samuel MANSFIELD
witness 2: F C Swift
officiating minister: W F Wood: Vicar

----


again on the records


Baptism at Clearwell: 2 December 1894

Thomas Edwin BROOKS : parents: Thomas (Quarryman) & Alice

sibling

William Henry: 29 August 1895 (private baptism) at Clearwell

---


Checking on Gloucestershirebdm and GRO (mother's maiden name) MORGAN.


Gloucestershirebmd: Thomas BROOKES married Alice Mary MORGAN 1892 : Register Office (March Qtr) Monmouth District

(as the above website is not working the same as usual - not sure what Register Office the marriage took place)

? Alice Mary MORGAN

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, February 04, 2017, 15:36 (1255 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

?

Baptism at Clearwell : Alice Mary MORGAN, 6 July 1862

parents: William (occupation: Nailer & Jane)


1881 Census, Newland, (Gloucs) Monmouth, Wales
Clearwell Road

MORGAN

William - 62 - born Clearwell
Jane - 57
Richard - 28
Edward - 21
Alice - 19
Winifred MORGAN - Grand-daughter - 0 (this is Alice's child, baptised 8 July 1880 Clearwell).

Winifred MORGAN, 1880 - 1960

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, February 09, 2017, 19:44 (1250 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Thanks to MPG;

1881 Census, Newland, (Gloucs) Monmouth, Wales
Clearwell Road

MORGAN

William - 62 - born Clearwell
Jane - 57
Richard - 28
Edward - 21
Alice - 19 (b1862)
Winifred MORGAN - Grand-daughter - 0 (this is Alice's child, baptised 8 July 1880 Clearwell).

Ref Sheila's post earlier; here's Alice in 1901 Census. Taken from FamilySearch site so it's POSSIBLE there are other household members who aren't listed as I cannot see the actual Census form. Being reminded now how difficult this can be without having full Census access via the subscription sites !

1901 St Peters Clearwell, Newland, Glos.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Thomas Brooks Head M 36 KEEPING ROADS CLEAR IN COLLIERY UNDERGROUND. Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Alice Brooks Wife F 39 WIFE. Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Edwin Brooks Son M 6 Clearwell, Gloucestershire


So Thos was born abt 1865, and Alice Mary abt 1862, QED

Really struggling to find likely Death Records for either, anywhere !. (Not rare names)

Hoping it might link into daughter Winifred's life ?

From this site's PRs, here's Winifred;

Record_ID: 69464
Entry_Number: 591
Year: 1880
Month: Jul
Day: 8
Parents_Surname: MORGAN
Child_Forenames: Winifred
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Alice
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Clearwell
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: H L Perry Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 74
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex: M625

I think this Burial is our Winifred, as the other Winifred Morgans in the PRs have middle names, unlike ours, plus the dates and location are a good fit. It appears that Winifred never married.

Record_ID: 243530
Entry_Number: 782
Year: 1960
Month: Sep
Day: 22
Surname: MORGAN
Forenames: Winifred
Residence: Ferny Hill Dunsley Gloucs.
Age_at_death: 80
Officiating_Minister: G.R.H.Smith
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: formerly of Clearwell
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/8
Page_No: 98
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex: M625


This address should read as Dursley, eastwards from the Forest across the Severn.
Googling the address suggests she MAY POSSIBLY have been living at Ferney Hill House, perhaps it was an old people's home in 1960, or maybe she was blind ? - see
http://ccgi.dursleyglos.plus.com/forumdg/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=735
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-393827-ferney-hill-dursley-gloucestershire#....

Of course there may well have been other housing at Ferney Hill by 1960, the nearest old map I can find is from 1920 when it was still fairly un-developed.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102342866
This recent webpage suggests it wasn't too developed by 1960
"the left hand direction going to Ferney and the recent Yellow Hundred development whereas the right hand one climbs up to the Highfields estate."
http://www.dursleyglos.org.uk/html/dursley/streets/uley_road/uley_road.htm

Unfortunately my Ancestry subscription has expired, otherwise I'd search for Winifred's Will, which may well be helpful.

It's possible she might be found in the 1939 Register, to see her wherabouts and household situation at that time ?? Ditto her parents if still alive ??

One possible link between Dursley and the Forest is the diesel engine makers Listers, based in Dursley but built a satellite factory near Cinderford railway station during WW2; I wonder if this is possibly linked to Winifred moving to Dursley ?.
http://www.dursleyglos.org.uk/html/dursley/industry/listers/history/listers_1907_1945.htm
http://www.coaley.net/indglos_1904/ig190409.pdf

Winifred MORGAN, 1880 - 1960; 1891 Census.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 20:10 (1248 days ago) @ Jefff

Filling in a few gaps,

from FamilySearch; https://familysearch.org

1891 Census, Stank Lane, St Peter's Parish, Newland, Glos

Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William Morgan Head M 72 Married. Nailer. Gloucestershire, England
Jane Morgan Wife F 68 Married. Wife. Gloucestershire, England
Richard Morgan Son M 35 Single. Iron ore miner. Gloucestershire, England
Winifred Morgan Grand-daughter. F 10 Gloucestershire, England


St Peter's church is definitely in Clearwell, and Stank Lane definitely used to be altho I can't find a map old or new using the precise term wrt the Lane, altho' other "Stank" addresses still exist in Clearwell.

Ed, another free-access site that may be worth getting to know is the new and excellent Scottish Library Ordance Survey maps site. Unfortunately Clearwell is on the edge of several of the earlier maps, so this link goes to the 1920s one which has Clearwell in the centre.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102342809

I think Stank Lane generally refers to the road running south-north thro the centre of the village, given that the route given for the 1871 Census was this
"All that part of the Parish of Newland in the Tything of Clearwell, comprising Millend, Scatterford, Candwell, part of Wicket(aka Wyegate) Green, Stow, Longly, Shophouse, Stank Lane, Clearwell to Upper Cross, The Court, The Cottage Hospital and Platwell"

The definitive website for the history of the area is the British History site, but it's description of Stank Lane frankly confuses me... sorry.
"The Highmeadow road was the main route to Newland in the 16th century and was used by travellers between Coleford and Monmouth in the early 18th century. On the turnpiking of the road beyond Highmeadow in 1755 it became the main coach road between Coleford and South Wales. A road running from the Forest at Broadwell to a junction with the road from Mitcheldean at Pool green was known in 1317 as the pool way, after the fishpond by the green. That road, which originally continued west of the green and north of the town along Stank Lane, recorded in 1479, became the road from Littledean and Newnham to Coleford and in the later 18th century it was also used by travellers from Gloucester."

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp117-138

The Census shows that Winifred's Uncle Richard is an iron miner. Althought the Dean is perhaps better known for it's coal mines, the area around Newland/Clearwell also had iron ore deposits which were mined as early as Roman times, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearwell

One of my favourite ways of getting to know a new area is to read the old Trade Directories, whose Gazetteers give a good indication of what they thought was significant about their towns or villages.
eg, for Clearwell see this index for the whole FoD area;
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/index.htm

William Morgan is listed here, nail-making was a prominent skilled trade locally.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/clearwell1894.htm
Ed, if you search this forum you'll probably find answers to most questions, eg for nailers see http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=44338

Alice Mary MORGAN in 1891, in Dr TROTTER household.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 20:50 (1248 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

From FamilySearch;

1891 Census; Coalway Road, St John's Parish, Monmouthshire.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace

Leslie B Trotter Head M 40 Married. Doctor of Medicine. Gloucestershire, England
Mary Trotter Wife F 40 Married. Herefordshire, England
Leslie B C Trotter Son M 8 Scholar. Gloucestershire, England
Wilfred B L Trotter Nephew M 18 Unmarried. Student of science. Gloucestershire, England
Frances Trotter Niece F 24 Unmarried. Australia
Alice Morgan Servant F 28 Unmarried. Domestic cook. Clearwell, Gloucestershire, England
Emily Willis Servant F 15 Unmarried. Domestic Servant. Gloucestershire, England


Ed, as if to confuse us all when starting our FH studies, the Victorian Census forms for the western edge of the Forest often infer we are in Monmouth and even Wales. Since ancient times and long before the town of Coleford existed, despite lying east of the Wye and within Gloucestershire, England, this edge of the Forest has been "governed" from the ancient town of Monmouth, which is just across the county & national border. Monmouth is therefore in Wales, altho' it seems that Monmouthshire was considered an English County in the 1800s, perhaps due to it's abundance of mineral resources. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure this Census relates to an area not far from Clearwell, and just east of Coleford towards Coalway, St John's is the C of E Church of Coleford.

This FoD website contains several excellent maps, all accessed from the "Forest of Dean" heading mid-way along the site's main blue banner menu. eg
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/forest-of-dean-parish-map
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/resources/11-maps/89-early-map-of-the-pa...

------------

Alice Morgan is clearly working in a respectable household. Dr Leslie Batten Trotter is mentioned within this 1902 Trade Directory for Coleford.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/coleford1902.htm
And this 1879 one, which shows several prominent Trotter and Batten households in Coleford at this time.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/resources/kelly-s-directory-1879/46-cole...

From FreeBMD site;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Dec 1850 (>99%)
Trotter Leslie Batten Monmouth 26 86

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1890 (>99%)
CLAYPOLE Elizabeth Mary Farnham 2a 151
Trotter Leslie Batten Farnham 2a 151

(Farnham in Surrey)

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1934 (>99%)
Trotter Leslie B 84 Ledbury 6a 522


His son's Baptism from this site's PRs;

Record_ID: 158185
Entry_Number: 64
Year: 1882
Month: Oct
Day: 3
Parents_Surname: TROTTER
Child_Forenames: Leslie Batten Currie
Fathers_Forenames: Lesile Baten
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Coleford
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Edward Fison
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born Aug 4 1882
Notes:
Register_Reference: D2598 8/4
Page_Number: 20
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Wesleyan Methodist
Soundex: T636

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1914 (>99%)
PIERCE Hilda M Trotter Nottingham 7b 761
Trotter Leslie B C Pierce Nottingham 7b 761

Deaths Dec 1964 (>99%)
TROTTER LESLIE B C 82 GLOUCESTER C. 7B 449

Leslie B.C. was educated at Cambridge, served in the trenches of WW1, and in latter years was a GP at Ledbury and possibly Newnham.

"LESLIE BATTEN CURRIE TROTTER (born 1882). M.A., M.D., B.Ch. (Cantab.).
Leslie Batten Currie Trotter (born 1882) [Epsom College 1898-1901] was the son of Dr L. B. Trotter, of Coleford, Gloucestershire. He received his medical education at Clare College, Cambridge and University College Hospital, before entering general practice at Ledbury, Herefordshire. During the First World War he served as a Captain in the R.A.M.C., at Ypres and in Italy (1914-1918)."
http://atelim.com/epsom-college-1855-1899-general-practitioners-medical-officers.html?p...


Also see prior thread https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=50936

---

Nephew Wilfred B.L.Trotter was clearly an excellent student and became a very well-known doctor indeed, "a pioneer in neurosurgery .... an authority in cancers of the head and neck."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Trotter

So Wilfred was born in Coleford. I cannot find his Baptism in the PRs, but his birth was registered in Monmouth, from FreeBMD;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Dec 1872 (>99%)
TROTTER Wilfred Batten L Monmouth 11a 26

This forum has had several mentions of the Trotters from Coleford, including links to descendants in Australia.

Alice Mary MORGAN and family, pre 1881.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, February 12, 2017, 00:20 (1248 days ago) @ Jefff

Again from FamilySearch;


1871 Census; Clearwell, Newland, Monmouthshire, Wales.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William Morgan Head M 52 Married. Nail maker. Newland, Gloucestershire
Jane Morgan Wife F 48 Married. Wife. Newland, Gloucestershire
Richard Morgan Son M 17 Unmarried. Labourer. Newland, Gloucestershire
Edwin Morgan Son M 12 Scholar. Newland, Gloucestershire
Alice Morgan Daughter F 9 Scholar. Newland, Gloucestershire
Robert Morgan Son M 7 Scholar. Newland, Gloucestershire


1861 Census; Clearwell, Newland, Monmouthshire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William Morgan Head M 42 M. Nail maker. Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Jane Morgan Wife F 38 M. Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Henry Morgan Son M 15 U. Nail maker. Clearwell, Gloucestershire
William Morgan Son M 10 U. Scholar. Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Richard Morgan Son M 7 Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Fanny Morgan Daughter F 4 Clearwell, Gloucestershire
Edwin Morgan Son M 1 Clearwell, Gloucestershire


1851 Census; Clearwell Street, Monmouth District, Newland, Monmouthshire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William Morgan Head M 32 M. Nailer. Lydney, Gloucestershire
Jane Morgan Wife F 27 M. Nailer wife. Newland, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Morgan Daughter F 10 Scholar. Newland, Gloucestershire
Henry Morgan Son M 5 Scholar. Newland, Gloucestershire
William Morgan Son M 0 Newland, Gloucestershire


1841 Census; Clearwell, Monmouth District, Newland, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
William Jenkins M 35-39 Gloucestershire
Hannah Jenkins F 35-39 Gloucestershire
Richard Jenkins M 15-19 Gloucestershire
Amy Jenkins F 10 Gloucestershire
Julia Jenkins F 8 Gloucestershire
William Jenkins M 5 Gloucestershire
Fanny Jenkins F 0 Gloucestershire
Jane Morgan Female 20-24 Gloucestershire
William Morgan Male 20-24 Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Morgan F 0 Gloucestershire


---


From this FoD site's PRs;


Record_ID 12525
Entry_Number 180
Year 1840
Month Aug
Day 8
Grooms_Surname MORGAN
Grooms_Forenames William
Grooms_Age of full age
Groom_Condition Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation Nailer
Grooms_Residence Clearwell
Grooms_Fathers_Surname Morgan
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames William
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation Collier
Brides_Surname JENKINS
Brides_Forenames Jane
Brides_Age Minor
Brides_Condition Spinster
Brides_Occupation none stated
Brides_Residence Clearwell
Brides_Fathers_Surname Jenkins
Brides_Fathers_Forenames William
Brides_Fathers_Occupation Nailer
Licence_or_Banns Banns
Date_of_Banns
Signature_or_Mark He marks she signs
Witness_1 Mark of William Jones
Witness_2 Mark of Eliza Jones
Other_Witnesses
Officiating_Minister George Ridout Vicar
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes
Register_Reference P227 IN 1/12
Page_Number 90
Parish_Chapel Newland
Soundex_Groom M625
Soundex_Bride J525


Record_ID 43955
Entry_Number 440
Year 1823
Month Jun
Day 15
Parents_Surname JENKINS
Child_Forenames Jane
Fathers_Forenames William
Mothers_Forenames Hannah
Mothers_Surname
Residence Clearwell
Occupation [Labou] Nailer
Officiating_Minister H Douglas Vicar
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register_Reference P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number 55
Parish_Chapel Newland
Soundex J525


So William was born sometime around 1819, and his father was a collier named William. However still difficult to know his parents, there were several "William Morgans, father William" born around that time, as shown by this site's Baptism PRs.
http://forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/advanced-search

This MIGHT be our man; Whitecliffe is near Clearwell, and father is a collier. But not certain !. It would be good if we could find William's parents living near to Jane Jenkin's household in the 1841 Census. This is best done by finding this Jenkins household in the 1841 Census on one of the subscription websites, then searching adjacent households on the same or adjacent images to try and find a neighbouring Morgan household.

???

Record_ID 8586
Entry_Number 431
Year 1816
Month Feb
Day 18
Parents_Surname MORGAN
Child_Forenames William
Fathers_Forenames William
Mothers_Forenames Anne
Mothers_Surname
Residence Whitecliff
Occupation Coalminer
Officiating_Minister Tho[ma]s Thomas
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register_Reference P93 IN 1/4
Page_Number 18
Parish_Chapel Coleford
Soundex M625

???

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by BigEd, Friday, February 10, 2017, 12:36 (1249 days ago) @ BigEd

Found this on this site.....

Forest of Dean WW1 Military Appeal Tribunals
Transcript Details

Record_ID: 526
Sheet_Number: 260
Case/Appeal_Number: 6922
Local Tribunal Name: West Dean
Local Tribunal Case Number: 545
Surname: BROOKES
Forenames: Thomas Edwin
Address 1: Brooklyn Ho.
Address 2: Clearwell
Occupation: Asst. School Master
Class of Case: R[e]
Date papers sent to Tribunal: _
Decision of Appeal Tribunal and Date: Dismissed 24/7/17
Soundex: B622

The class of case R[e] is "On the ground of ill-health or infirmity"
Can anyone enlighten me as to what ill-health or infirmity Teddy suffered from.

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by dink999 @, Friday, February 10, 2017, 14:27 (1249 days ago) @ BigEd

Thomas Edwin Brookes case appears to be one of nearly 30 that were heard at the Gloucestershire Appeal Tribunal held at Lydney on the 24th July 1917.

As written in my forward on these tribunals

"The other detail that is of use for further research is the date of the appeal. The County Appeal Tribunals were reported in detail in the local papers usually a day or so after the Tribunal has been held."

"In the Gloucester Journal dated 17 June 1916 a man was described as a Master Painter & Decorator from Cinderford and then further details reported about why he should not be called up, but the one piece of information they did not report was the man’s name. With the details from this index the man can be identified as Charles Parry of the High St, Cinderford."

The County Appeal Cases heard at Lydney that Thomas was included in were reported in the Gloucester Journal and Gloucester Chronicle on Saturday 28th July 1917.

However reading the article I cannot see Thomas's case written up. Perhaps someone else who has access to the online newspaper archive can see his case. Most of the others men's cases are there and have some helpful details.

Thomas's case was also written up in a County Appeal Chairman's Notebook, which is held at Glos Archives, the catalogue reference is D570/2/19 (Page 23).

These is another mans case on the same page so there may not be much more detail than already transcribed for Thomas (from D570/1/2).

Hope that's of some help

Dave

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, February 10, 2017, 16:36 (1249 days ago) @ dink999

Hi Dave,
thanks for this, very interesting indeed. Please can you clarify, am I correct in thinking the newspapers never actually named the men whose tribunals were being heard ?. I ask as in the past I've tried searching various surnames in the BNA newspaper archive but without any success. Unfortunately today I don't have full BNA access, which I think from your post is your situation too.

Ref the Gloucestershire Archives record, I see we can thank you for your part in that !. I was going to sugest that Ed could purchase a scan of the relevant page direct from the Archives, as I guess he's not in the UK?, but I now see they're reduced their service while the Archives is being rebuilt ?.
see http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=D570...

Also Dave, can you also please clarify, the above GlosArchives webpage states
"It is are best used in conjunction with the detailed names index compiled by volunteer David Drinkwater which collates all the information held on individuals in the various Military Tribunal papers held at Gloucestershire Archives. The index can be found on the "Gloucestershire Remembers WW1" page of Gloucestershire Archive's website."

I must admit I'm struggling to navigate their website, reading the webpage linked below, the nearest I can find to this Tribunals index is the Soldiers index, which I don't think is correct. Please can you help find the Tribunals index, or isn't it online ?
http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/archives/working-with-us/partnership-projects/glouces...

Sorry to be even slower than usual today, thanks again, Jeff.

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by dink999 @, Friday, February 10, 2017, 16:59 (1249 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

Some newspapers in other areas did name these men, but not in Gloucestershire as far are I have seen.

Using search terms "Military Appeal Tribunal" or "County Appeal Tribunal" will get you to the relevant page on the BNA.

Regarding finding the database on the Glos archives site, it looks to me as if it has not been uploaded onto the site after a resent upgrade!!

If you contact me again I will happily send you what data should be on there site.

Dave

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, February 10, 2017, 17:49 (1249 days ago) @ dink999

Thanks for that Dave. You've confirmed what I thought was the case re the names, so I am now even more in awe of your detective skills in being able to link the tribunal information with actual men, which I failed at last time I tried !

Thanks too for confirming the Archives site has been recently "upgraded", I thought I was going nuts when I went to it a few weeks back and was mightily confused !. I'm afraid I come from a background in industry where supposed upgrades etc of documents or websites would have always been meticulously checked & proven before going public, and I'm still something of a perfectionist too, which is perhaps unfair in the modern cash-strapped world of local authorities (I presume the Archives are government funded?). However given the context it seems a great shame that your info doesn't appear to have made the upgrade, hopefully they are aware of this unfinished business.

I wonder, is it possible for your info to be added to this site at some point ?.

Thanks for your very kind offer re the data, I will send you a p.m shortly.

atb Jeff

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by BigEd, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 09:57 (1248 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

You are correct, I'm resident in South Africa. Also, I am not familiar with all the subscription archive and other data sites that you refer to, so I appreciate all and any “freebee” data that I can get relating to my ancestors.
Can anyone explain what the Military Appeal Tribunal was all about? Was there an enforced conscription for WW1 or did people sign-up for service on a purely voluntary basis?

Regards,
Ed

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, February 11, 2017, 16:35 (1248 days ago) @ BigEd

Hi Ed, yes I thought you were in SA but not sure, we get visitors from all across the world. Ref the various Free access data sites, that I THINK you'd be able to use from SA, I realised yesterday that I'd omitted the relevant links from my post, sorry bout that. If you see this old thread then hopefully that will guide you, altho sadly the normally-excellent GlosBMD site is currently "playing up" which is a shame, perhaps linked to the recent re-organising of it's parent Glos Archives site too. FreeBMD & FamilySearch (aka LDS ref the older posts on this site) are well-worth you getting to grips with. AND of course this FoD site, we are VERY fortunate as this is one of the very best free-access sites in the UK for family history research.
Please see all the thread/posts linked to this post
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=40732

------------------

Roughly speaking, at the start of WW1 the British Army was an excellent but very small professional (volunteer) army, known as the Regular Army, backed-up by the Territorial Army which was made-up of part-time Reservists, often ex Regular Army. At the start of the War in mid 1914 the Regulars went to France & Flanders as the British Expeditionary Force, suffering huge losses helping to stop the massive German march on Paris and the seaports. To replace losses and raise the strength to match the enemy forces for what would clearly be a long war, the Government asked for volunteers. Meantime large numbers of the Army who had been stationed overseas across the Empire were also shipped back to Europe, including millions of Indian & African men for example. For numbers see http://www.1914-1918.net/faq.htm

At one point the numbers enlisting almost overwhelmed the local authorities with over 100,000 men a month signing-up, nationalistic fervour was initially encouraged by reports of Belgian & French civilians being massacred, not to mention the social stigma of White Feathers etc etc. This was generally known as "Kit-chener's Army" ("Your Country Needs You"), many signed-up for adventure and to see the world, perhaps even better living standards than they had before (free clothes, food etc), many believed it would be over before they got to fight. They were thoroughly trained for several months before going to France. Sadly large parts of the well-trained and keen "Kit-chener's Army" were lost in the opening days or even minutes of the Somme Offensives, many before even firing a shot in anger. As the War dragged on and losses mounted, and men were less inclined to volunteer, forced conscription was introduced in early 1916.
This is a fair summary of it all.
https://www.bl.uk/world-war-one/articles/voluntary-recruiting
Also see the opening paragraphs here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_World_War_I

The most comprehensive site to research all aspects of the British Army in WW1 is this one.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/

If a conscripted man didn't want to fight then he could go to a Military tribunal. This site gives a pretty good summary of it all, although it will also be covered in the aforementioned Long Trail site and quite probably in more detail.
http://spartacus-educational.com/FWWconscription.htm


(Apologies for hyphenating Kit-chener, the word "tc-hen" (albeit without the hyphen) isn't permitted by the forum's censor software, I have no idea why).

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by BigEd, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 10:50 (1236 days ago) @ Jefff

Greetings all,
Can anyone explain the outcome of the tribunal to me?

"Record_ID: 526
Sheet_Number: 260
Case/Appeal_Number: 6922
Local Tribunal Name: West Dean
Local Tribunal Case Number: 545
Surname: BROOKES
Forenames: Thomas Edwin
Address 1: Brooklyn Ho.
Address 2: Clearwell
Occupation: Asst. School Master
Class of Case: R[e]
Date papers sent to Tribunal: _
Decision of Appeal Tribunal and Date: Dismissed 24/7/17
Soundex: B622
"

What does “Decision of Appeal Tribunal and Date: Dismissed 24/7/17” mean?
Does this mean that Teddy's appeal against conscription was dismissed or was he dismissed and not conscripted?
If his appeal was dismissed what would have happened to him?

Ed

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by dink999 @, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 11:59 (1236 days ago) @ BigEd

Ed,

"Dismissed 24/7/17" does indeed mean that Thomas' appeal case was dismissed and he then would have been at the mercy of the Army Authorities as to when he was called up/enlisted.

The image below is his entry along with some others, who you will see have different decisions as to their appeal, which hopefully give you some better context for the information transcribed.

Dave

[image]

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by BigEd, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 12:32 (1236 days ago) @ dink999

Thanks Dave,

How can I find out what further action the Army Authorities took? The reason I ask is that I recall my grandmother, Thomas' wife, saying that she remembered the “day they brought him home in a cage”. I was very young at the time and eavesdropping on adult conversation, so am not sure in what context she was speaking at the time, but those few words have stuck in my memory. Would the Army have arrested him if he ignored any conscription notice served on him?
I also note that WW1 was over within 18 months, so is it possible that he was not called up?

Ed

Thomas Edwin BROOKES - WW1 Military Appeal Tribunal

by dink999 @, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 13:20 (1236 days ago) @ BigEd

Ed,

It's difficult to say what would have happened next, Thomas would have been put into a "catagory" after he completed the National Registration Form in Aug 1915, something like A1, B2 C2 etc.

This would have partly determined when he would have been called up (men could argue that the category they were put in was wrong in an attempt to have it changed and so delay their call up.)

Records that might help include the school logs books, if you know the school at which he was teaching, then Glos Archives might have the relevant log book and some references to him during that period.

If you can tell me the school, then I'll have a look to see what records Glos Archives have, and go from there.

Dave

Thomas Edwin [Teddy] BROOKES - school teacher

by BigEd, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 13:52 (1236 days ago) @ dink999

Dave,

Teddy was a primary school teacher and resident in Clearwell, so I can only assume that he taught locally.

Thanks for the help.

Ed

Thomas Edwin [Teddy] BROOKES - school teacher

by dink999 @, Thursday, February 23, 2017, 14:34 (1236 days ago) @ BigEd

It looks like this document may refer to the correct school

I will have a look through it next time I am at the archives (next couple of weeks probably)

S88 - Coleford, Clearwell Church of England Primary School
1 - Log books
Level Item
Alt Ref No S88/1/2
Title Log book
Date 1897-1945
Description At front: measurements of classrooms and numbers of children that can be accommodated, nd [1907-1912]; average attendances for each year, with number of children on roll, 1906-1944
At end, loose: letter concerning school hours over winter 1940-1941, 1940; papers concerning omission from annual averages of two weeks' very low attendance due to epidemic of measles, 1944; letter concerning cook's wages, 1945; notices concerning hiring of school by groups, 1945; delivery note for various items of hardware, 1945
Use_Restrictions Closed until 1 January 2046 under Data Protection Act 1998: section 33 exemption applies; researcher undertaking needed
NumberofDocs 1 volume, 8 documents
HeldAt Gloucestershire Archives

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