Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford (General)

by rookancestrybest @, Sunday, September 16, 2018, 14:36 (454 days ago)

I have a letter from a Mrs I or Mrs J Turnbull who lived at what looks like Sparrow Hill, Coleford and wondered if any of her descendants might be interested in my scanning a copy for them. Though no date is on the letter it will have been written after 1877, but likely to be no later than about 1881. My family were moved by Thomas Mushet along with several others to Sheffield and the letter must have been written just after the whole family had settled there. Mrs Turnbull's letter informs my great, great grandma that she is still tending her son's grave (the son being William Charles Stephen Rook who died in December 1877 aged 2 1/2 years of scarletina). She says in the letter that she tends his grave along with the grave of her own child, "dear little Charley" at Coleford Cemetery. She sounds like a lovely woman and a very loyal friend but her and her family seem stricken by ill health. The only J or I Turnbull I can find on your site is the record of the death of a Jane Turnbull in 1889 aged 43 years which sounds as though it might fit. I am wondering if this could be the same person? In the letter she writes of "little Ellie" who I presume was one of her living children. She also mentions someone called Clara who had recently taken flowers and moss to the graves. When she signs off it's from the Turnbulls and Clara.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by rookancestrybest @, Sunday, September 16, 2018, 14:43 (454 days ago) @ rookancestrybest

I have now found on your site that Jane Turnbull is the likely candidate as a Jane Turnbull married a Charles Turnbull (coachman) in 1873. Among their children there is an Ellie, born in 1876, and a Charles who died aged 3yrs and 2 months -burial 4th November 1876. They also had a child called Clara Agnes. At a glance other children were at least - Grace and Launcelot.

The Charles who died aged 3 years and 2 months was buried only 13 months before my relative. I am also wondering if they might have had adjacent graves. She mentions a John Keys who seems to have had some sort of role at the cemetery in Coleford.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, September 16, 2018, 18:39 (454 days ago) @ rookancestrybest

Hi,
not relevant to your search for the Turnbulls I'm afraid, but I wondered why your ancestors were moved to Sheffield ?. Was Thomas Mushet related to Robert Forester Mushet etc of Darkhill fame; were your ancestors involved in the family steel-making business which was so-closely linked with Sheffield's steel industry ?
Asking just out of curiosity as I'm a mechanical engineer who'd have loved to have history like this in my family tree !
Thanks J.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by rookancestrybest @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 14:15 (453 days ago) @ Jefff

I am sure I have the right Turnbulls as it appears the two children's graves are/were next to each other.

My great, great grandfather, Thomas Rook was transferred by Mr Mushet along with five others in about 1879. I know he was in Sheffield in December 1879 but that his family came to join him after that date, probably some time in early 1880. He was 61 at the time so it must have been a big thing to be uprooted at that age. He had small children as he married late in life. He died in 1883 not long after they got here. Thomas Rook was the son of another Thomas Rook who was also a blacksmith and who worked in the Forest of Dean all his life.

I need to check which Mushet but a Mr Mushet who he worked for in Coleford developed an enterprise with Samuel Osborn in Sheffield for making crucible steel, a very significant part of Sheffield's history. This was why they were transferred. The names of the other men I found in a book, written by a member of the Osborn family: Fred Osborn called: The Story of the Mushets, which was published in 1952. The names cited were:
George Hancox,
George Tomlinson,
William Phelps,
Tom Brookfield,
Louis Joseph Turton,
On page 34 of the book it states: "It was necessary to have a competent smith to make tools. A man named Rook was such a blacksmith and well able to make the hammers and chisels required for topping and dressing ingots." -I spent time reading this book in Sheffield Archives.

My family stayed in Sheffield. Thomas Rook's son, born in the Forest of Dean, also went on to work for Osborn Mushet (later it was called Samuel Osborn's) and worked there for the whole of his working life. I also have, in my possession, an invitation to the wedding of a member of the Osborn family, so it does appear that my family was held in high esteem by the firm.

The firm went on to produce steel for many decades but sadly closed a few years ago. Part of the building is still there though used for other purposes now. I think Osborn Mushet had more than one works but the one where my family worked was the one on Rutland Road, Sheffield,3. Which is very close to Kelham Island where there is a museum about Sheffield's steel industry. There is a road quite a distance from there but in another steel making part of Sheffield (Sheffield 9) called Coleford Road which I assume probably got this name due to the Mushet Osborn link but I have not yet managed to find out if this assumption is correct.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by rookancestrybest @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 14:24 (453 days ago) @ rookancestrybest

Related to the posting directly above, there is more about the Mushet connection with Sheffield at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Osborn_%26_Company

It was definitely Robert Forester Mushet (there is no Thomas, I referred to him from memory and my memory was obviously inaccurate on the first name!) who met with Osborn and then two of Mushet's sons were involved in the enterprise.

Hope you have found this interesting. Most people from Sheffield will have one of the metal industries in their family history, iron, steel, brass and silver being the most usual!

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by rookancestrybest @, Monday, September 17, 2018, 15:13 (453 days ago) @ rookancestrybest

Small correction William died in 1877 not 1879 therefore the crucial dates for the move to Sheffield were about 1877 for Thomas and 1878 for the rest of the family. Two more Rook children were born in Sheffield one in late 1878 and the other in 1880.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 00:22 (444 days ago) @ rookancestrybest

Hi,
rather belated but heartfelt thanks for posting this great history which I found very interesting indeed. Sorry for my slow reply, I've been away for a while. Thanks too for confiruming you made a quite understandable error with all these names, that explains why my searches couldn't find a Thomas Mushet (or at least one of any note in the family steel business).
As said earlier, I'm more than a little envious of you, in a nice way !. It's great that your ancestors were part of such important events in British engineering history.
Thanks so much for taking the time posting it !
atb Jeff.

PS in case you've not seen it, the Grace's Guide website has some excellent history of the companies you mention, please see my later post down this thread for links.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by RogerrGriffiths @, Swindon, Monday, September 17, 2018, 15:57 (453 days ago) @ Jefff

Hello Jeff,

One of the Mushett's perfected the Bessemer process to make steel.

This gives some idea.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Xk-IAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT115&lpg=PT115&dq=The+...

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 00:46 (444 days ago) @ RogerrGriffiths

Hi Roger,
thanks for posting, I hope you're well ?.

Yes I did know about Robert F Mushet, thanks. My problem was trying to place a Thomas Mushet, however for completely understandable reasons we now know it was actually Robert not Thomas who RookAncestry's ancestors worked with.

Thanks too for the website link. You probably already know of the Grace's Guide to British Industrial History. It's one of my favourite websites when researching old British engineering companies. I especially like it as it gives links to other parts (trade names) of each business throughout their history. I find it really interesting when looking up some of the famous old household British brand-names I grew-up with, and still exist albeit only in brand-label form sadly. Companies like Decca, Pye, Ferguson and Pifco (which I'm afraid as kids we thought a rather funny name akin to Acme of cartoon fame, and hence the brunt of some unfounded jokes...). Grace's Guide also taught me that despite wondering if GEC (General Electric Company) was originally an American brand, if fact it most definitely started life in London, having been set-up by German-Jewish immigrants in the 1880s. Great history !

Here's the Mushet page, which also links to Samuel Osborn as per RookAncestry's post.

atb Jeff.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Robert_Forester_Mushet

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Samuel_Osborn_and_Co

PS Roger, I learnt about Bessemer's process at Cinderford Tech college during my apprenticeship, what a shame they didn't mention Mushet !!. Soon after I spent a summer working at Ranks' Welwyn Garden City site north of London, which I saw was on an industrial area along "Bessemer Road" - I found that it was indeed named after Sir Henry Bessemer who was born in the area, his family history makes very interesting reading too.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by RogerrGriffiths @, Swindon, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 08:03 (444 days ago) @ Jefff

Hello Jeff,

Fine thanks and trust you are. I looked up Mushet name and they seem to have been based in different parts of the Country. Ours may have come from Scotland to Dean, perhaps to experiment in steel. There is/was a biggish looking house at Ellwood. Clearwell caves nearby.

Must read is Industrial History of Dean by Cyril hart, but I expect you know that well.

My father was an industrial chemist, Nobel and ICI start to finish. He had two patents in March 1942. One for improvements to self sealing fuel tanks for RAF aircraft and howabout this, mustard gas proof battle dress even if perforated. Self sealing battle dress! he never told me, my mother mentioned he had patents. I put his name in Google a couple of years ago and the patents came up. Can't find the entry now.

During the World Cup, BBC Radio kept saying that Nizhny Novgorod was a closed area in Soviet times (Gorky then). I tried unsuccessfully to contact BBC Radio, no e-mail addresses and no phone numbers. My father was there in 1959! Gaz Auto factory. They presented him with a car mascot on a plinth, a running deer? which is also the City symbol. Then, there were armed Militia (police), two women in berets, Russian shirts, skirts, marching boots and the inevitable ppsh sub machine guns.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by rookancestrybest @, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 18:17 (443 days ago) @ RogerrGriffiths

The father of Robert Forester Mushet came from Scotland see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Forester_Mushet

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, September 28, 2018, 01:13 (443 days ago) @ RogerrGriffiths

Hi Roger,
great history there, what an interesting life your father must have had !
Do you know anything more about his gas-proof battledress ?. I think it was in the excellent Spike Milligan war biographies that I first read about the anti-gas treatment that was apparently applied to British Army WW2 uniforms. This confused and intrigued me as I couldnt understand what the stuff did, until a few years later during my own career I asked about it with reference to the NBC kit our company produced for the Army's tanks and tracked carriers and it began to make sense.

A shame that with all the UK's past prowess in science and engineering in my opinion the BBC and it's website are something of a laughing stock nowadays, which I think is why they've made it virtually impossible to send them feedback as you found !.

Take care, Jeff

PS oops, by NBC I meant Nuclear/Biological/Chemical as in dirty warfare, and not as in US tv news etc !. For our firm this meant the intake/extract fans and associated filtration devices for crew ventilation when "closed-down" against these attacks.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by RogerrGriffiths @, Swindon, Friday, September 28, 2018, 07:56 (443 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi Jeff,

I better stop being a cuckoo in the nest here. Russian tanks and APC's did/do? maintain air pressure within the vehicles above 15psi to keep out NBC. My father knew Barnes W. He also had something to do with cocooning of deck cargoes for Russian convoys. It was mooted he should go on a voyage, but ICI said NO!.

I watched a video on You Tube yesterday. Even I was shocked, although I knew some of it. It stated to begin with that there is no weapon today that was not in some stage of development in Germany during the War, lasers, semi conductors/chips, miniaturised computers, smart bombs and I can't remember the rest. Showed a set of 4 photographs of a smart bomb being tested in the Baltic against a target ship, including going through an aperture just as the Gulf War examples.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, September 29, 2018, 00:34 (442 days ago) @ RogerrGriffiths

Agree with you Roger so last post from me on this thread.

Correct re mil vehicles and air pressure, same as underground bunkers. Early in my career in aerospace engineering c1987 I spent time in the environmental testing facilities at the BAe Weybridge factory, aka the old Vickers factory on the Brooklands race track where Barnes Wallis worked of course. And a bit later at RAE Farnboro with their huge wind tunnels. Thank goodness for the likes of him and your father.
Stating the obvious but please beware of so many of the YT vids as they are often full of biased propaganda depending on who created them, but lacking common sense etc, but yes German industry and science led the world in many ways then. Luckily for us they were "led" by a complete idiot, who encouraged several to independently work on a scheme without knowing or working with others who were doing the same thing and so possibly solving the problems the others were struggling with. And all on schemes tht were clearly madcap and pointless. If one halfdecent engineer with a systematic approach and good management! had been in charge it could have all ended so very differently. Eg lookup the Stuttgart wind cannon, or visit the huge V3 site near Calais which was destroyed by one of BW's Tallboys; both utterly ludricous. Which is why for example the Allies soon gave-up on cruise missiles guided by onboard pigeons(yes, honestly). However never forget that it was indeed British men like Frank Whittle who were first to have practical jet engine designs, not the Germans, but it was our own more reserved "sensible" Air Ministry who decided not to let him progress the work until the Germans had shown it was worthwhile and necessary. Similarly the Americans tell us their Bell X1 was the first supersonic aircraft, yet it's design was laregly gifted them by the British Government from our own Miles Aircraft, just as we gave them RR jet engines a few years later....

Take care, J.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by MPGriffiths @, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 15:43 (443 days ago) @ Jefff

?

Whitecliffe Ironworks on Wikipedia states

'1798 Whitecliff Ironworks ..... by 1808 most of the original partners sold their shares - and Whitecliff was now owned by Thomas HALFORD, James TEAGUE, Isaiah BIRT and WICKENDEN.

As my Ancestors are the WICKENDEN's who arrived in the Forest 18th century - I've never found out which WICKENDEN owned the Shares - as no Christian name is quoted (there were only JOHN and WILLIAM, and a sister Susannah) + earlier deaths of WICKENDEN's


Of a couple of brothers, my line is John WICKENDEN who married Ann STEPHENS in 1777.


His brother, William WICKENDEN married Sarah SAMUEL by Licence - 5 December 1785 - but can't see the Licence transcribed in the Forest of Dean Records -


William & Sarah WICKENDEN has two children christened at Blakeney Chapel - 5 April 1795, John & Susanna

Just a bit more info on 'WICKENDEN'


Part Two of a History of the Whitecliff Ironworks in the Forest of Dean :

Mentions : WICKENDEN 7 times - seems to be in the Paint Trade - my line John WICKENDEN who died in 1808 was a Farmer in Awre.

'His popularity with HALFORD and MUSHET declined towards 1810'

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by MPGriffiths @, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 17:26 (443 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

This is the Article where WICKENDEN is mentioned 7 times in letters from TH to DM -


https://www.gsia.org.uk/reprints/1981/gi198132.pdf

?Any ideas who he is

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by rookancestrybest @, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 18:17 (443 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

No idea who Wickenden is but you might be better starting a different thread as people might not pick up on it if it's attached to Turnbull.

Descendants of the Turnbull family of Sparrow Hill, Coleford

by RogerrGriffiths @, Swindon, Thursday, September 27, 2018, 19:49 (443 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

I don't know if this one is one of yours.

1841 Census Bradley Hill

John Wickenden 50 labourer.

I don't have the family just the Heads.

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