WW1 Soldier P.J. HERBERT, "of" Cinderford, Medal sale. (General)

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, June 08, 2019, 21:07 (39 days ago)

Now on EBay is a Victory medal for WW1 soldier Corporal P.J.HERBERT of Cinderford.
I'm posting in the hope it will find it's way to the best possible new home, hopefully Herbert's descendants, or a local collector. I'm sorry it's a tight timescale before the auction ends on Monday afternoon. Please be assured I'm not in any way linked to the seller or the family, I don't stand to benefit in any way from this auction, I won't be bidding.

The medal listing here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/372681338861?ul_noapp=true

The seller tells me his service papers are on Ancestry, and state;

Born Cinderford
Full name Philip John Herbert
Baptised Bream St James 29/3/1877, birth registered Forest of Dean
Buried Tutshill St Luke 9/5/1927

---

I cannot find him in the prior posts on this forum.

I don't currently have an Ancestry sub but using FamilySearch, FreeBMD and this site's PRs have found the following records.

Record_ID: 43038
Entry_Number: 321
Year: 1877
Month: Mar
Day: 28
Parents_Surname: HERBERT
Child_Forenames: Philip John
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Ellen
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Breams Eaves
Occupation: Miner
Officiating_Minister: J F Gosling
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Sponsers Thos Herbert Ellen Herbert
Notes:
Register_Reference: P57 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 41
Parish_Chapel: Bream
Soundex: H616


Record_ID: 359465
Entry_Number: 464
Year: 1927
Month: May
Day: 9
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Philip John
Residence: Chepstow + District Hospital
Age_at_death: 50
Officiating_Minister: C.H.Vincent-Brown
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P333/2 IN 1/3
Page_No: 58
Parish_Chapel: Tutshill
Soundex: H616

Searching probable parents' marriage gives;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1870 (>99%)
Davis Ellen Monmouth 11a 65
Herbert Thomas Monmouth 11a 65


Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT Thomas DAVIS Ellen Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office 1870 7 135


Record_ID: 43039
Entry_Number:
Year: 1870
Month: May
Day: 4
Grooms_Surname: HERBERT
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence:
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: DAVIS
Brides_Forenames: Ellen
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Bream
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns:
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark:
Witness_1:
Witness_2:
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes: any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: D5533 1/1
Page_Number: 99
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Congregational
Soundex_Groom: H616
Soundex_Bride: D120

--

1881 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 37 Iron miner. Brockweir, Gloucestershire, England
Ellen Herbert Wife F 29 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah E Herbert Daughter F Scholar. 10 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Edith Herbert Daughter F Scholar. 8 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Annie Herbert Daughter F Scholar. 6 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 4 Scholar. Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Thomas Herbert Son M 2 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England


1891 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 47 Iron Miner. Gloucestershire, England
Ellen Herbert Wife F 40 Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 14 Iron Miner. Gloucestershire, England
Tom Herbert Son M 12 Scholar. Gloucestershire, England
Isaac Herbert Son M 10 Gloucestershire, England
Amy Herbert Daughter F 6 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Norah Herbert Daughter F 5 Gloucestershire, England
Maud Herbert Daughter F 3 Gloucestershire, England


1901 Atherton, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thos H Darby Head M 31 INSURANCE AGENT. Bream, Gloucestershire
Ellen Darby Wife F 31 Brown Ash, Herefordshire
Eva Darby Daughter F 8 Atherton, Lancashire
Alice Darby Daughter F 6 Atherton, Lancashire
Ellen Darby Daughter F 0 Atherton, Lancashire
Philip Jno Herbert Boarder M 24 CONFECTIONER. Bream, Gloucestershire

(Could Brown Ash = Bromsash, near Ross ?)


Name Philip John Herbert
Event Type Marriage
Event Place Leigh, Lancashire, England
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1901
Volume 8C
Page 455
Affiliate Line Number 130
Possible Spouse Mary Cottam


1911 Atherton, Lancashire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Philip Herbert Head M 34 MOTOR-MAN ON TRAM CAR, STH LANCS TRAM CO. Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Herbert Wife F 33 St Helens, Lancashire
Ellen Herbert Daughter F 7 Atherton, Lancashire
Philip Herbert Son M 1 Atherton, Lancashire

---

(continued)

WW1 Soldier P.J. HERBERT, "of" Cinderford, Medal sale.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, June 08, 2019, 21:34 (39 days ago) @ Jefff

(Continued)

FamilySearch also has;


Name Philip John Herbert
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1914
Residence Place Lancaster, Lancashire, England
Age 36
Military Company/Regiment Royal Army Service Corps
Military Regiment S/3/022922
Military Battalion 24th Field Battery
Birth Year (Estimated) 1878
Birthplace Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Citing this Record
"United Kingdom, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920,"

I'm confused by mention of the 24th Field Battery who are presumably Artillery ?. If it's a correct transcription then I guess his role in the RASC was to supply ammunition, but it seems unlikely he was only supplying just one unit ?
I cannot find any reference to this unit in the Royal Artillery.

The Long Trail website (below) shows the RASC was also responsible for the Army's bakeries. Was the record actually "Bakery", not "Battery" ?. Indeed, the 1901 Census show's he was once a "confectioner".

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-...
https://greatwarphotos.com/2012/09/05/ww1-field-bakers-bread-for-the-troops/

----

As posted earlier, his parents & siblings are;

1881 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 37 Iron miner. Brockweir, Gloucestershire, England
Ellen Herbert Wife F 29 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah E Herbert Daughter F Scholar. 10 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Edith Herbert Daughter F Scholar. 8 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Annie Herbert Daughter F Scholar. 6 Bream, Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 4 Scholar. Bream, Gloucestershire, England
Thomas Herbert Son M 2 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England


1871 Monmouthshire, Wales, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Davis Head M 58 Coal miner. Newport, Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Davis Wife F 59 Bream, Gloucestershire
Thomas Herbert Son-in-law M 23 Labourer. Brookshir, Gloucestershire
Ellen Herbert Daughter F 20 Coleford, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Davis Daughter F 11 Yorkley, Gloucestershire
Sarah E Herbert Daughter-in-law F 0 Bream Eaves, Gloucestershire


1861 Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire, England,
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Philip Herbert Head M 42 Butcher. Gloucester Hewelsfield,
Elizabeth Herbert Wife F 42 Monmouth Penallt,
Thomas Herbert Son M 14 Butcher's son. Gloucester St Briavels,
Ann Daughter F 10 Gloucester Hewelsfield,
George Son M 7 Gloucester Hewelsfield,
Isaac Herbert Son M 6 Gloucester Hewelsfield,
Mary Herbert Daughter F 4 Gloucester Hewelsfield,
Elizabeth Herbert Daughter F 1 Gloucester Hewelsfield


1851 Field Gate, Hewelsfield, Hewelsfield, Monmouthshire, Wales.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Herbert Head M 73 Widower. Butcher. Penalt, Monmouthshire
Phillip Herbert Son M 32 Butcher. Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Herbert F 32 Penalt, Monmouthshire
Thomas Herbert Son M 6 St Braivels, Gloucestershire
Sara Ann Herbert Daughter F 0 Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire
James Herbert Son M 21 Butcher At Home. Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire
Isaac Herbert Son M 17 Labourer. Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire
Mariann Worgan Servant F 13 Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire

----

Philip's parents & siblings stayed in the Dean after he left, but are now in Cinderford St John parish;

1891 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 47 Iron miner. Gloucestershire, England
Ellen Herbert Wife F 40 Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 14 Iron miner. Gloucestershire, England
Tom Herbert Son M 12 Gloucestershire, England
Isaac Herbert Son M 10 Gloucestershire, England
Amy Herbert Daughter F 6 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Norah Herbert Daughter F 5 Gloucestershire, England
Maud Herbert Daughter F 3 Gloucestershire, England


1901 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 56 Coal hewer. Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire
Ellen Herbert Wife F 48 Coal hewer. Bream, Gloucestershire
Tom Herbert Son M 22 Coal hewer. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Isaac Herbert Son M 20 Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Maud Herbert Daughter F 11 Ruspidge, Gloucestershire
Willie Herbert Son M 7 Cinderford, Gloucestershire


1911 West Dean, Parkend, Monmouthshire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 67 Inn keeper. Brockwier, Gloucestershire
Ellen Herbert Wife F 62 Newland, Gloucestershire
Maude Herbert Daughter F 22 Cinderford, Gloucestershire
William Herbert Grandson M 17 Westbury On Severn

Cannot definitely find his parent's burials, but at his sister Maude's marriage our Philip was a witness.
Was he a visitor, or back living here ?


Record_ID: 160411
Entry_Number: 414
Year: 1923
Month: Apr
Day: 2
Grooms_Surname: SEVILLE
Grooms_Forenames: Ernest Morton
Grooms_Age: 40
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: engineer
Grooms_Residence: Llanguick
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: SEVILLE
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Samuel decd
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: bootmaker
Brides_Surname: HERBERT
Brides_Forenames: Maud Mary
Brides_Age: 33
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Moseley Gn
Brides_Fathers_Surname: HERBERT
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas decd
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: innkeeper
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Philip John Herbert
Witness_2: James Robt Anderson
Other_Witnesses: Irene May Moundiss[?]
Officiating_Minister: D J Banham vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P245 IN 1/22
Page_Number: 207
Parish_Chapel: Parkend
Soundex_Groom: S140
Soundex_Bride: H616


(Cont.)

WW1 Soldier P.J. HERBERT, "of" Cinderford, Medal sale.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 00:17 (39 days ago) @ Jefff

(Cont.)

Philip Herbert's sister Maud & her husband Ernest died in Bristol.

Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page

Deaths Sep 1973
SEVILLE ERNEST MORTON 7OC1882 BRISTOL 7B 24

Deaths Dec 1977
SEVILLE MAUD MARY 10MY1888 BRISTOL 22 573


They had 2 children, both in the FoD area;

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

Births Dec 1924
Seville Herbert M Herbert Monmouth 11a 24

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1946
Mackfall Sylvia J Seville Lincoln 7a
Seville Herbert M Mackfall Lincoln 7a 1208

FreeBMD suggests they had a son & daughter, born Lincoln 1947 & 1950.

---


Births Jun 1926
Seville Norman C Herbert Monmouth 11a 27

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1956
FORD June L E SEVILLE F.of Dean 7b 643
Seville Norman C Ford F. of Dean 7b 643

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
SEVILLE Norman Charles FORD June Lorraine Edwina Forest of Dean Cinderford St John the Evangelist 1956 6 40


FreeBMD suggests they had 3 daughters born Bristol twixt 1958 and 1962.


So Philip had family descendants not too far away, but how find at such short notice... ??

=========


So why did WW1 soldier Phillip John Herbert die, and be buried, in the Forest after settling in Lancashire ?
The burial suggests he was back living here, not just visiting friends or family such as with Maud's wedding ?.

Maybe his own children give clues ?

Searching possible marriage for Philip Herbert born Atherton aka Leigh district in 1910;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1943
Boardman Anna Herbert Leigh 8c 358
Herbert Philip Boardman Leigh 8c 358

Cannot find any children.

------

And his daughter Ellen Herbert also born Leigh district, in 1904.

Not a rare name, but this MAY be her,

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1931
Gregory Stanley Herbert Leigh 8c 496
Herbert Ellen Gregory Leigh 8c 496


Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Jun 1935
Gregory Geoffrey H Herbert Leigh 8c 360


So no obvious links back to the FoD.

???


PLEASE, if anyone can help find more relevant records, I'd be very gratefull.

Hopefully this might point towards any descendants who might still like to own his medal ?

Thanks.

Thomas H DARBY of Bream, living Lancashire 1900s

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 01:43 (39 days ago) @ Jefff

Reference his entry in the 1901 Census, Philip Herbert's landlord was also a Breamer;

1901 Atherton, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thos H Darby Head M 31 INSURANCE AGENT. Bream, Gloucestershire
Ellen Darby Wife F 31 Brown Ash, Herefordshire
Eva Darby Daughter F 8 Atherton, Lancashire
Alice Darby Daughter F 6 Atherton, Lancashire
Ellen Darby Daughter F 0 Atherton, Lancashire
Philip Jno Herbert Boarder M 24 CONFECTIONER. Bream, Gloucestershire

(Could Brown Ash = Bromsash, near Ross ?)


Sadly it seems fellow Breamer Thomas died soon afterwards;

1911 Westhoughton, Bolton District, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Ellen Darby Head F 42 Hereford Lea, Herefordshire
Eva Darby Daughter F 18 Atherton, Lancashire
Alice Darby Daughter F 16 Atherton, Lancashire
Nelly Darby Daughter F 10 Atherton, Lancashire
Thomas Darby Son M 7 Atherton, Lancashire

I think this may be the record, with an incorrect transcription of age somewhere along the line - "64" should read "34" ??

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Jun 1904 (>99%)
DARBY Thomas Hubert 64 Leigh 8c 177

=========

I'm guessing Philip knew his landlord Thomas Darby from their time as youngsters in Bream ?

Struggling to find this particular Thomas DARBY in prior posts in this forum.


Record_ID: 42618
Entry_Number: 685
Year: 1870
Month: Mar
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: DARBY
Child_Forenames: Thomas Hubert Beach
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Woodside
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: J. F. Gosling
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Sponsors Richard Morgan Elizabeth Morgan
Notes:
Register_Reference: P57 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 86
Parish_Chapel: Bream
Soundex: D610


1871 Monmouthshire, Wales, United Kingdom
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Isaac Morgan Head M 60 Iron miner. Blanavon, Monmouthshire
Sarah Morgan Wife F 61 West Dean, Gloucestershire
William F Beach Son M 28 Iron miner. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary A Darby Lodger F 27 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas H Darby Lodger M 1 West Dean, Gloucestershire


So it rather looks like Thomas Hubert Beach Darby is the "slightly" illegitimate son of William Frederick Beach and Mary Darby ?

FamilySearch;

England Births and Christenings
Name William Beech
Gender Male
Christening Date 06 Nov 1842
Christening Date (Original) 06 NOV 1842
Christening Place SAINT JAMES,BREAM,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Beech
Mother's Name Sarah Ann


From this site's PRs;

Record_ID: 41699
Entry_Number: 565
Year: 1842
Month: Nov
Day: 6
Parents_Surname: BEECH
Child_Forenames: William Fridene
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Woodside
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: H. G. Poole Minister
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes: In this record a forename was not clear so the best guess was given
Register_Reference: P57 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 71
Parish_Chapel: Bream
Soundex: B200


1851 ???, Monmouth District, Monmouthshire, Wales
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Beach Head M 44 Coal miner. Newland, Gloucestershire
Sarah A Beach Wife F 40 Newland, Gloucestershire
Mary Beach Daughter F 20 Newland, Gloucestershire
Eliza Beach Daughter F 15 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann Beach Daughter F 13 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Beach Son M 11 West Dean, Gloucestershire
William F Beach Son M 8 West Dean, Gloucestershire
George Beach Son M 5 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry Beach Son M 3 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Richard Beach Son M 0 West Dean, Gloucestershire

=====

Record_ID: 197677
Entry_Number: 973
Year: 1843
Month: Jun
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: DARBY
Child_Forenames: Mary Anne
Fathers_Forenames: Emmanuel
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Hewelsfield
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: F. Stonhouse Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P175 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 86
Parish_Chapel: Hewelsfield
Soundex: D610


Record_ID: 17135
Entry_Number: 147
Year: 1872
Month: Feb
Day: 25
Grooms_Surname: BEACH
Grooms_Forenames: William Frederick
Grooms_Age: 29
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Miner
Grooms_Residence: Breams Woodside
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Beach
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Miner
Brides_Surname: DARBY
Brides_Forenames: Mary
Brides_Age: 27
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Breams Woodside
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Darby
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Emmanuel
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Mark of William Roberts
Witness_2: Mark of Mary Roberts
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: J.F. Gosling
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P57 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 74
Parish_Chapel: Bream
Soundex_Groom: B200
Soundex_Bride: D610

Thomas H DARBY of Bream, living Lancashire 1900s

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 11:24 (39 days ago) @ Jefff

The Genes Reunited transcription of Thomas Hubert DARBY’s death record gives his age as 34. Likewise GRO Index.

Thomas H DARBY of Bream, living Lancashire 1900s

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 13:23 (39 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Thankyou Mike.
I did view the original document on the FreeBMD site, which as usual was scan of a printed transcript of the GRO index page, and that definitely read "64", so interesting the GRO has subsequently corrected it. I've left a postem to this effect on the FreeBMD page.

WW1 Soldier P.J. HERBERT, "of" Cinderford, Medal sale.

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 17:18 (39 days ago) @ Jefff

You are quite right about the unit Philip John HERBERT was serving in. His Ancestry records show at least three times that it was the 24th Field Bakery.

They also confirm that his wife was Mary COTTAM (married 25/05/01 at Christ Church, Pennington, Leigh).

WW1 Soldier P.J. HERBERT, "of" Cinderford, Medal sale.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 17:43 (39 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Thanks Mike, wow I'm on a psychic role, best go and buy some lottery tickets !

Or even better, predict why he apparently left Lancashire and his family ?

Re the bad error on the transcript, it's interesting that when I started this hobby 10 years ago, all the reference books warned me about the LDS / FamilySearch being prone to errors, yet it's only the last year or so I've started seeing them, and still no more than some of the subscription sites.

Many thanks again.

WW1 Soldier P.J. HERBERT, this site's Servicemen's Database

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, June 10, 2019, 14:56 (38 days ago) @ Jefff

I forgot to mention that Corporal Herbert is not listed within this site's WW1 Servicemen Database. I think this maybe because the Database was largely created using local newspapers as well as CWGC records, and as Herbert wasn't then living in the County and survived the war he wasn't spotted.

https://forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/resources/forest-of-dean-ww1-servicemen

Perhaps Admin could please add him sometime, thanks ?

WW1 Soldier Philip HERBERT - his brother Isaac, landlord.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 09, 2019, 21:30 (38 days ago) @ Jefff

One of Philip Herbert's younger brothers was Isaac born in 1881. I now see he has been covered in this prior thread; he was the landlord of various pubs in the Forest, eventually ending his career at the White Horse Mitcheldean.

See this thread https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=11646

As an update to this thread, we now have the following Burial Records.
It appears that Isaac Herbert was the landlord of the White Horse when he died, aged just 57, another early death for the Herbert family !
(NB: the PR is in error, there was never a White Hart in Mitcheldean).

Record_ID: 219504
Entry_Number: 671
Year: 1938
Month: Nov
Day: 29
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Isaac
Residence: White Hart Mitcheldean
Age_at_death: 57
Officiating_Minister: A.R.Smith
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_No: 84
Parish_Chapel: Mitcheldean
Soundex: H616

So born abt 1881.


His wife Edith also died before her time..

Record_ID: 219487
Entry_Number: 654
Year: 1936
Month: Jan
Day: 8
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Edith
Residence: Mitcheldean
Age_at_death: 55y[ea]rs
Officiating_Minister: A.R.Smith
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_No: 82
Parish_Chapel: Mitcheldean
Soundex: H616


I see there is an Isaac Herbert of Cinderford gets a brief mention within this site's WW1 Servicemen database, I guess they're both this same man. I'll try and find some more information about him to add to the Database. The other two Herberts in that same Database are both from Drybrook, so quite likely they're all related.

WW1 Soldier Isaac HERBERT, also RASC.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 17:22 (37 days ago) @ Jefff

For completeness, here's Philip Herbert's brother Isaac in the later Census' which wern't posted in the prior thread;

1901 East Dean, Cinderford St John, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Herbert Head M 56 Coal Hewer. Hewelsfield, Gloucestershire
Ellen Herbert Wife F 48 Bream, Gloucestershire
Tom Herbert Son M 22 Coal Hewer. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Isaac Herbert Son M 20 Coal Hewer. Cinderford, Gloucestershire
Maud Herbert Daughter F 11 Ruspidge, Gloucestershire
Willie Herbert Son M 7 Cinderford, Gloucestershire


1911 East Dean, Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Isaac Herbert Head M 30 Hotel Proprietor. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Edith Herbert Wife F 30 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Nora Herbert Daughter F 5 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Edith Herbert Daughter F 2 West Dean, Gloucestershire
Bessie Beddis Servant F 19 West Dean, Gloucestershire

The prior thread tells us Isaac married Edith Jones in 1905. GlosBMD gives a little more detail, and explains why no Parish Record. It seems the Herberts wern't Church-goers as there are no Baptism records for their children;

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT Isaac JONES Edith Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office 1905 25 21

----

FamilySearch also has this record regarding his WW1 Service, his Medal Index Card on Ancestry (freely available without a sub) confirms he was a Private in the RASC, but in a different unit to his brother Philip;

Jsaac Herbert
United Kingdom, World War I Service Records
Name Jsaac Herbert
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1917
Residence Place Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Age 35
Military Company/Regiment Royal Army Service Corps
Military Regiment M/284090
Military Battalion 971st Company
Birth Year (Estimated) 1881
Birthplace Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England

Citing this Record

"United Kingdom, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB5-9FRJ)

I'm unable to access it, but fortunately his full Service Records have survived and are on Ancestry. Please can his entry on this site's Servicemen Database be amended to reflect this additional information.

WW1 Soldier Stanley HERBERT of Drybrook, East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 17:54 (37 days ago) @ Jefff

The two other Herberts listed in the Servicemen Datatbase are Stanley and George, both from Drybrook. No other information is given.


I think this is Stanley, Holy Trinity being the "Forest Church", nr Drybrook;

1901 East Dean, Holy Trinity Parish, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Jno Herbert Head M 49 Coal Loader. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary E Herbert Wife F 31 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Thos J Herbert Son M 11 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Stanley Herbert Son M 6 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Rivers Father-In-Law M 64 Retired Chemical Work. Ledbury, Herefordshire
Mary A Rivers Mother-In-Law F 66 Hupton, Herefordshire


1911 East Dean, Near Mitcheldean, Gloucestershire, England.
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Herbert Head M 59 COLLIER LOADER ABOVE GROUND. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Emily Herbert Wife F 45 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Herbert Son M 21 ELECTRIC FUSE MAKER. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Stanley Herbert Son M 16 COLLIER HODDER BELOW GROUND. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Rivers Mother-in-law F 72 Herefordshire


No PR for Stanley's Baptism but GlosBMD has;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HERBERT Stanley RIVERS 1894 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, East Dean 2 142


Thankfully he survived the war;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1923
Edwards Florence M Herbert Westbury S. 6a 723
Herbert Stanley Edwards Westbury S. 6a 723

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT Stanley EDWARDS Florence May Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office 1923 19 95


Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page
Deaths Jun 1971
HERBERT Stanley 30Jy1894 F.of Dean 7b 948


Possibly wife Florence ?

Surname First name(s) DoB District Vol Page
Deaths Jun 1981
HERBERT FLORENCE MAY 29MY1898 GLOUCESTER 22 1931


Which fits;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1898
Edwards Florence May Westbury S. 6a 239

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
EDWARDS Florence May WILLIAMS 1898 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, East Dean 6 195


--------


Back to Stanley's parents John born abt 1852 and Mary Emily born abt 1870;

1891 Holy Trinity, East Dean, Gloucestershire
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Herbert Head M 40 Tin worker. Gloucestershire, England
Mary Emily Herbert Wife F 23 Gloucestershire, England
Thomas John Herbert Son M 1 Gloucestershire, England
Emma Harper Niece F 19 Gloucestershire, England


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1886
Herbert John Westbury 6a 455
RIVERS Mary Emily Westbury S. 6a 455

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT John RIVERS Mary Emily Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office 1886 8 84

=============

And John with his parents & siblings;

1881 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Head M 59 Laborer At Colliery. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Sophia Herbert Wife F 58 East Dean ((Coleford)), Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 29 Labourer at tinworks. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
George Herbert Grand Son M 13 Scholar. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Tabithea Whitson Daughter F 32 Married. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Florance M Whitson Grand Daughter F 12 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Allace Whitson Grand Daughter F 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England


1871 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Geo Herbert Head M 49 Labourer. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia Herbert Wife F 47 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Herbert Son M 19 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Pamila Herbert Daughter F 16 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Geo Herbert Grandson M 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Harper Lodger M 19 Labourer. Gloucestershire


1861 ???


1851 ????, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Head M 29 Coal miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia Herbert Wife F 27 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Susannah Herbert Daughter F 5 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Tabitha Herbert Daughter F 2 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Herbert Mother F 62 Widow. Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Dennis Herbert Nephew M 13 Coal miner. East Dean, Gloucestershire


1841 Dean Forest St Paul, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Herbert M 50 Gloucestershire
Sarah Herbert F 50 Gloucestershire
George Herbert M 20 Gloucestershire
Hester Herbert F 14 Gloucestershire
Hannah Herbert F 11 Gloucestershire
Dennes Herbert M 3 Gloucestershire
William Webbs M 30 Gloucestershire
Jane Webbs F 25 Gloucestershire
George Webbs M 2 Gloucestershire

Think this is Parish of St Paul at Parkend, one of the first churches built within the FoD c1821.


Record_ID: 128220
Entry_Number:
Year: 1821
Month: Jun
Day: 24
Parents_Surname: HERBERT
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Brierley
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: J. Bridgman
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 28
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: H616


-----------

1891 Holy Trinity, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Head M 70 Retired Coal Miner. Gloucestershire, England
Sophia Herbert Wife F 68 Gloucestershire, England
John W Obridge Grandson M 16 Tin Plate Worker. Gloucestershire, England

(cont.)

WW1 Soldier Stanley HERBERT of Drybrook, East Dean.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 20:20 (36 days ago) @ Jefff

Stanley's parents continued;

Record_ID: 130456
Entry_Number:
Year: 1852
Month: Jan
Day: 4
Parents_Surname: HERBERT
Child_Forenames: John
Fathers_Forenames: George
Mothers_Forenames: Sophia
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Brierly
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: H G Nicholls
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 107
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: H616


Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HERBERT John GRINDLE 1851 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 12 98


Record_ID: 202773
Entry_Number: 110
Year: 1843
Month: Dec
Day: 2
Grooms_Surname: HERBERT
Grooms_Forenames: George
Grooms_Age: Full age
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Exparochial part of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Herbert
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: GRINDLE
Brides_Forenames: Sophia
Brides_Age: under age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: No business or profession
Brides_Residence: Exparochial part of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Grindle
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: he marks she signs
Witness_1: Mark of John Herbert
Witness_2: Henry Webb
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Arthur Stonhouse Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AO19/11
Page_Number: 55
Parish_Chapel: Walford
Soundex_Groom: H616
Soundex_Bride: G653


Note Sophia is marginally "under age", born abt 1824;

1841 "Dean Walk In Dean Forest, Little"
Forest Green, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Joseph Grindall M 28 Gloucestershire
John Grindall M 20 Gloucestershire
Charles Grindall M 19 Gloucestershire
Sophia Grindall F 17 Gloucestershire
Susan Grindall F 15 Gloucestershire
Georg Grindall M 13 Gloucestershire
Willam Grindall M 9 Gloucestershire


Possibly ??;

Record_ID: 258731
Entry_Number: 355
Year: 1823
Month: Sep
Day: 21
Parents_Surname: GRINDAL
Child_Forenames: Sophia
Fathers_Forenames: Charles
Mothers_Forenames: Susan
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Occupation: Coal Miner
Officiating_Minister: T R Garnsey Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P110 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 45
Parish_Chapel: Littledean
Soundex: G653


Finally, no Burial PR but;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1898
Herbert Sophia 74 Westbury S. 6a 183

Confirms born abt 1824.


----

As well as Stanley's father John, George and Sophia also had a younger son, George.
(This site's PRs also have Baptisms for another 5 of their children, all daughters.
Their first is Susannah in 1845, George is their last in 1864.)


Record_ID: 131390
Entry_Number:
Year: 1864
Month: Jul
Day: 31
Parents_Surname: HERBERT
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: George
Mothers_Forenames: Sophia
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Brierley
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: William Lockett
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P/109 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 26
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: H616


It seems highly unlikely that this is the same George Herbert of Drybrook who's listed in the Servicemen Database, as he'd have been serving in WW1 aged 50+.

Likewise it's probably not their Grandson George born c1868 according to their 1871 & 1881 Census data. It's not helpful that I cannot find the family's 1861 Census record.
I cannot find his baptism, I think this is him, presumably the illegitimate son of one of their older daughters ? ;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry Newnham 30 461
HERBERT George ----- 1866 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 26 485

WW1 Soldier George HERBERT, from Brierley nr Drybrook.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 23:50 (36 days ago) @ Jefff

The second HERBERT listed in this site's WW1 Servicemen Database is briefly desribed as George, and like Stanley from Drybrook.


Could this be him, so born c1894 as per a soldier who thankfully survived WW1 ?;

Record_ID: 97699
Entry_Number: 1370
Year: 1958
Month: Jan
Day: 30
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: George
Residence: Brierley Banks Brierley
Age_at_death: 66
Officiating_Minister: W Barber (Vicar)
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: new
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/38
Page_No: 172
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: H616

This COULD be his marriage;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1917
Herbert George Phelps Westbury S. 6a 636
Phelps Edith G Herbert Westbury S. 6a 636

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT George PHELPS Edith Gertrude Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office 1917 17 77


Sadly their son Stanley died very young;

Record_ID: 95415
Entry_Number: 687
Year: 1918
Month: Dec
Day: 25
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Stanley
Residence: Brierley
Age_at_death: 2 years
Officiating_Minister: James Lawton Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/14
Page_No: 86
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: H616

This site has his Inquest, it shows he died from "shock due to burns to neck, face and right arm".
I guess this is another case of the child pulling a pan of boiling water over him off the range, sadly all to common in those times. The Inquest confirms his parents' names and his father's role in the Tank Corps.
What a tragic Christmas for a young family who thought they'd just survived the war....
https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/inquests/php/popup.htm?../images/F331.png

---

The most likely birth record I can find for this George is this one, but no corresponding Baptism;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Mar 1892
Herbert George Westbury S. 6a 237

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HERBERT George LYSHONS 1891 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 62 272


FamilySearch has these records which seem to fit; my lifelong interest in tanks means I find him a very interesting man indeed !


Name George Herbert
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1917
Residence Place Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England
Age 25
Military Company/Regiment Reserve Cavalry Regiment
Military Regiment H/43509
Military Battalion 5th Reserve Battalion
Birth Year (Estimated) 1892
Birthplace , Gloucestershire, England


Name George Herbert
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1918
Residence Place Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England
Age 26
Military Company/Regiment Tank Corps
Military Regiment 312751
Military Battalion 22nd Battalion
Birth Year (Estimated) 1892
Birthplace , Gloucestershire, England

Ancestry appears to have his full Service Records.


1901 Holy Trinity, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Jr Head M 33 Coal Hewer Below Ground. Brierley, Gloucestershire
Catherine Herbert Wife F 33 Staffordshire
George Herbert Grand Father M 80 Living On Own Means. Brierley, Gloucestershire
Alfred Lyshon Son M 14 Coal Loader Below Ground. Hawkwell Row, Gloucestershire
Rose Herbert Daughter F 11 Scholar. Hawkwell Row, Gloucestershire
John Herbert Son M 10 Scholar. Brierley Row, Gloucestershire
George Herbert Son M 9 Scholar. Brierley Row, Gloucestershire
Lily Herbert Daughter F 7 Brierley Row, Gloucestershire
Florrie Herbert Daughter F 3 Brierley Row, Gloucestershire

This suggests Catherine Herbert may well be nee Lyshon, as per the Birth Record noted earlier.

So can find;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1889
Herbert Arthur George Westbury S. 6a 470
LYSHON Catherine Westbury S. 6a 470
Moore Samuel George Westbury S. 6a 470
TINGLE Jane Westbury S. 6a 470


Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT Arthur George LYSHON Catherine Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office 1889 9 34

This full name explains why I struggled to find this "George Herbert" in other records.


Hence this Burial;

Record_ID: 324945
Entry_Number: 6901
Year: 1920
Month: Jun
Day: 15
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Arthur George
Residence: Brierly
Age_at_death: 53 years
Officiating_Minister: Edward Parnell Rector
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/14
Page_No: 65
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: H616

So born abt 1867. per the census etc., including this;

1891 Holy Trinity, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Head M 23 Tin plate worker. Gloucestershire, England
Catherine Herbert Wife F 23 Gloucestershire, England
Rosana Herbert Daughter F 1 Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 0 Gloucestershire, England
Alice Herbert Sister F 13 Brierley, Gloucestershire, England
Elizth Wolridge Visitor F 18 England


Is this his Birth record ?;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HERBERT Arthur ----- 1867 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 28 23

So could this (Arthur)George Herbert born c1867 be the same George who was George b1821 & Sophia's "Grandson" born 1868 wrt the 1881 Census ?

Yes, in fact his Grandfather George born 1821 is in the 1901 household posted above, where (Arthur)George aka George Jr has named him "Grandfather aged 80", now widowed since Sophia died in 1898.

-----------------------------

So, and as suspected, soldier George Herbert born Brierley c1892 to father (Arthur) George Jr born Brierley 1868

is indeed related to

soldier Stanley Herbert born 1894 to father John born Drybrook 1851, they appear to be first cousins.

Arthur George HERBERT, born c1868 Brierley, help please.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 19:06 (36 days ago) @ Jefff

Please,

if anyone can work out who is the father of (Arthur) George (Junior) Herbert born Brierley (so near Ruardean Hill & Drybrook East Dean c1868 then PLEASE tell me, thanks.

Despite finding several records of him in the Census' etc, as per the previous posts, unless I'm missing the obvious (quite possible) then I'm struggling with this, and that's even after drawing the various trees out on paper !.

In theory (I think) his father will be the son of George b1821, but who is that son ???

Thankyou.

----

To recap, I believe the following records relate to him;


Record_ID: 324945
Entry_Number: 6901
Year: 1920
Month: Jun
Day: 15
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Arthur George
Residence: Brierly
Age_at_death: 53 years
Officiating_Minister: Edward Parnell Rector
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/14
Page_No: 65
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: H616

So born abt 1867


1901 Holy Trinity, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Jr Head M 33 Coal Hewer Below Ground. Brierley, Gloucestershire
Catherine Herbert Wife F 33 Staffordshire
George Herbert Grand Father M 80 Living On Own Means. Brierley, Gloucestershire
Alfred Lyshon Son M 14 Coal Loader Below Ground. Hawkwell Row, Gloucestershire
Rose Herbert Daughter F 11 Scholar. Hawkwell Row, Gloucestershire
John Herbert Son M 10 Scholar. Brierley Row, Gloucestershire
George Herbert Son M 9 Scholar. Brierley Row, Gloucestershire
Lily Herbert Daughter F 7 Brierley Row, Gloucestershire
Florrie Herbert Daughter F 3 Brierley Row, Gloucestershire


1891 Holy Trinity, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Head M 23 Tin plate worker. Gloucestershire, England
Catherine Herbert Wife F 23 Gloucestershire, England
Rosana Herbert Daughter F 1 Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 0 Gloucestershire, England
Alice Herbert Sister F 13 Brierley, Gloucestershire, England
Elizth Wolridge Visitor F 18 England


Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1889
Herbert Arthur George Westbury S. 6a 470
LYSHON Catherine Westbury S. 6a 470
Moore Samuel George Westbury S. 6a 470
TINGLE Jane Westbury S. 6a 470

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HERBERT Arthur George LYSHON Catherine Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office 1889 9 34


1881 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Herbert Head M 59 Laborer At Colliery. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Sophia Herbert Wife F 58 East Dean ((Coleford)), Gloucestershire, England
John Herbert Son M 29 Labourer at tinworks. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
George Herbert Grand Son M 13 Scholar. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Tabithea Whitson Daughter F 32 Married. East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Florance M Whitson Grand Daughter F 12 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Allace Whitson Grand Daughter F 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England


But why, if he was Arthur George, why does his Grandfather George confuse things within the household by calling him George and not Arthur ?


1871 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Geo Herbert Head M 49 Labourer. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia Herbert Wife F 47 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Herbert Son M 19 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Pamila Herbert Daughter F 16 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Geo Herbert Grandson M 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John Harper Lodger M 19 Labourer. Gloucestershire


Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HERBERT Arthur ----- 1867 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 28 23


TO ME IT NOW APPEARS LIKELY HIS FATHER IS JOHN BORN c1852, so aged 15/16 at the time ???

(I think...)

So well before John married his first? wife Mary Emily Rivers in 1886, and eventually had son Stanley in 1864 etc.

Arthur George HERBERT, born c1868 Brierley, help please.

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Sunday, June 16, 2019, 20:05 (31 days ago) @ Jefff

This site has records of these baptisms, all at Drybrook with father George HERBERT (occupation, collier) and mother Sophia, residence Brierley.

1845 Susannah

1848 Biatha (must be Tabitha)

1852 John

1854 Pamila

1860 Matilda

1860 Florence

And then this one,

Record ID 131390
Entry Number
Year 1864
Month Jul
Day 31
Parents Surname HERBERT
Child Forenames George
Fathers Forenames George
Mothers Forenames Sophia
Mothers Surname
Residence Brierley
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister William Lockett
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P/109 IN 1/3
Page Number 26
Parish Chapel Drybrook

Both Matilda and Florence were baptised May 27 1860. Glos BMD gives their mother’s former name as GRINDLE.

Record_ID: 202773
Entry_Number: 110
Year: 1843
Month: Dec
Day: 2
Grooms_Surname: HERBERT
Grooms_Forenames: George
Grooms_Age: Full age
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Exparochial part of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Herbert
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: GRINDLE
Brides_Forenames: Sophia
Brides_Age: under age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: No business or profession
Brides_Residence: Exparochial part of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Grindle
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: he marks she signs
Witness_1: Mark of John Herbert
Witness_2: Henry Webb
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Arthur Stonhouse Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AO19/11
Page_Number: 55
Parish_Chapel: Walford

A Matilda and Florence HERBERT were buried July 2 1860 at Ruardean. This site’s transcriptions give their ages as 9 months – confirmed by the Ancestry image. However Glos BMD gives the ages as 2 months.

Then there is this,

Record_ID: 323457
Entry_Number: 5416
Year: 1864
Month: Nov
Day: 6
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: George
Residence: East Dean
Age_at_death: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: William Penfold
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/12
Page_No: 179
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean

I’m not sure what this adds to the solution but there were obviously more George HERBERTs than at first appears.

Arthur George HERBERT, born c1868 Brierley, help please.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, June 16, 2019, 22:23 (31 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Hi Mike,
thanks for attempting to sort it out, and yes your conclusion is right, there were a fair few George Herberts haha !

You are due my apologies, my last "summary" post was incomplete; I posted the 1864 marriage of George b1821 to Sophia Grindle within my earlier posts about their Grandson soldier Stanley Herbert. I also gave some of her earlier records and mentioned their other children, sorry for not being clearer in my summary post.

Regarding the Ruardean Burial Record you found from 1864, just to confuse things further GlosBMD has these records, but which (if any) fits the PR ?

Death Details
Surname Given Names Age Year Died District Register Entry
HERBERT George 4m 1864 Westbury on Severn, Newnham 12 484

Death Details
Surname Given Names Age Year Died District Register Entry
HERBERT George 2 1864 Westbury on Severn, Newnham 12 478

That same year alone two Geo Herberts were born within the FoD according to GlosBMD, and a few more in 1863, 1865 and so on...

As you say, these all go to emphasise just how many George Herberts there were born around this time, not to mention the other lads with George as just one of their fore/middle names.

Ah well, thanks for having a go at this puzzle.

WW1 Soldier George HERBERT, from Brierley nr Drybrook.

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 20:29 (35 days ago) @ Jefff

c1892 George HERBERT’s Ancestry military records are in generally good condition if badly faded in parts. His attestation date looks to be 10th December 1915 when he gave his age as 23 years 11 months. He was unmarried at the time and gave his next of kin as his mother, Kathleen HERBERT of Brierley near Ruardean. His later marriage details are very faded; it is possible to make out Edith Gertrude but the surname is all but gone. Later on she is recorded as Edith Gertrude HERBERT, his updated next of kin. There is an entry for one child that is also faded but a birth date of 20.2.1917(?) is just about readable.

The records include a copy of the death certificate for Stanley HERBERT. It records the date of death as 22nd December 1918 and the cause of death as “Shock, the result of burns of the neck, face and right arm”. The Gloucester Journal - Saturday 04 January 1919 – contained a report of the inquest and revealed that the burns were caused by his clothing catching fire; sadly another frequent occurrence in those days.

WW1 Soldier George HERBERT, from Brierley nr Drybrook.

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 23:27 (35 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Thanks Mike, it's good to know my findings match the Service Records. And yes, as we've already seen many times on the forum another case of young children suffering appalling injuries if not deaths of this sort which were all too common in those days, must have been so difficult for mothers to watch them while struggling with all the domestic chores and no modern labour-saving devices. I guess father George may have still been away at the time, eitherway definitely not the Christmas he and wife Edith were hoping for after a long and terrible war.

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