Welsh Migration? (General)

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Wednesday, June 24, 2020, 23:56 (92 days ago)

My ancestor Edwin Silas Williams (1834-1888) lived in Newent for much of his life, married to Sarah Pickthorne (1834-1922). They immigrated to USA in 1868 with their children and Sarah's mother.

The England and Wales 1861 census lists Edwin's birth as 1834 "Wellington, Glamorganshire." Another document listed place of birth as "Willington." Of course his obituary in Minnesota lists his place of birth as "Leicestershire, England" which doesn't help.

Following up on the Glamorganshire bit. I understand this is in Wales. Were there many folks in the FOD from Wales? Was it a common migration pattern? Did folks move back and forth following work? How does one do genealogy work for Wales when it seems that half of the population had the last name of Williams? His parents names were John and Ann Williams.

Thank you for any information you may have about Welsh migration into FOD.

Welsh Migration?

by MPGriffiths @, Thursday, June 25, 2020, 10:22 (92 days ago) @ juliewilliams

On the 1861 Census, Edwin and Sarah - have a Mary Bayliss, Widow, aged 66, from Glos. Churcham living with them.
Witnesses at their wedding were: Samuel BAYLIS and Mary BAYLIS - who appear to witness a number of Pickthorne marriage

1861 Census, Edwin, says he is an Engine Driver to a Trashing Machine and born (ditto, from County above i.e. Gloucestershire, Wellington)


Family names are used all the times - from both sides of the family

Edwin (Silas Edwin) and Sarah use the names:

Charlotte Elizabeth, Harriet Sophia, Mary Louisa, Albert Silas etc.

----

If you use the Advance Search for witnesses:

It would seem, Silas Edwin Williams - couldn't write - as he signed with a mark (x) Sarah appears to write her name.

At Newent - 16 September 1860, when Charles SYMONDS, married Catherine WEAVER


Accents would be very different between Counties and Countries and are often misinterpreted and spelling would differ.

Welsh Migration?

by shepway @, Thursday, June 25, 2020, 15:22 (92 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

It would appear that Mary Bayliss is Sarah's mother. We have this marriage:
Year: 1851
Month: Jul
Day: 14
Grooms_Surname: BAYLIS
Grooms_Forenames: Samuel
Grooms_Age: 55
Groom_Condition: Widower
Grooms_Occupation: Basket Maker
Grooms_Residence: Castle Tump
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Baylis
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: PICKTHORNE
Brides_Forenames: Mary
Brides_Age: 53
Brides_Condition: Widow
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Castle Tump
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Brooke(s)
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of Philip Pickthorne
Witness_2: Mark of Jane Coleman
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: J Simons
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P125 IN 1/27
Page_Number: 79
Parish_Chapel: Dymock

John Pickthorne married Mary BROOKES on 7 October 1821 at Dymock and John was buried at Dymock on 11 December 1845.

It would also appear that Sarah was baptised as Sally at Dymock on 23 March 1834.

Mike

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Monday, June 29, 2020, 01:14 (88 days ago) @ shepway

Mike, thank you so much. This gives me new information I did not have. I didn't know Mary's father's name was James. Or that her husband was a basket maker. How interesting. When this family moves to the US they intermarry with the Chippewa Indians and go west on the Oregon Trail. So interesting!

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Monday, June 29, 2020, 01:07 (88 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Thank you, MPG. It's interesting to see how many of them could not sign their name at that time.

Welsh Migration?

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Thursday, June 25, 2020, 10:45 (92 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi Julie,

There was certainly a lot of movement between South Wales and the Forest of miners. My Grandfather moved, temporarily, from the Forest to South Wales for work and my Father and his brothers were all born there. But they all moved back to the Forest later.

My Grandmother's origins were also in Wales but she lived much of her life in the Forest.

Both of these examples were later than the your dates though.

There's also a long history of drovers from Wales driving animals to England. There's an interesting book - The Drover's Roads of Wales - by Shirley Toulson and Fay Godwin that gives some information.

--
Peter

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Saturday, June 27, 2020, 19:31 (90 days ago) @ probinson

Oooh, thank you, that book looks great! I just asked my library to find it for me.

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Friday, June 26, 2020, 06:49 (91 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi Julie

I may be going off on a tangent here but do you have any other information which suggests your Edwin Silas Williams was born in Wales other than the 1861 Census reference?

Am I correct that it is this Edwin Silas that you are trying to trace ?

Re the 1861 Census, were you looking at a transcript or an image of the Enumerators book page ?

Reason for grilling you is that i looked at the 1861 Census and i believe his place of birth was given as "W?llington, Gloucestershire."
The ? looks like an "e" but i can't find a Wellington in Gloucestershire although i am in Australia.
If ? was an "i" then there is a Willington Court Farm in Sandhurst Gloucestershire. I believe this might be about twelve miles from Newent.
The address for the Williams family in the 1861 Census record i looked at gave "Boulsdon Lane".

Also, if you have an image of the families disembarkation records into the USA , some of them will list the subjects place of birth.
I think they would have been specific about "English" or "Welsh" etc.

Some of my ancestors migrated from Wales to the USA late 19th Century and no way would they have confused the two entries, although i do not know the timeframe for when passenger lists started being more specific other than just a name .

Good luck

Sid Toomey

PS. What are the names of EdwinSilas' siblings and dates of birth if you have them ?

Welsh Migration?

by probinson @, S. Oxon, Friday, June 26, 2020, 09:09 (91 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Agree with you Sid. Definitely Willington though Ancestry has it transcribed as Wellington. And definitely 'Glos' correctly transcribed as Gloucestershire.

--
Peter

Welsh Migration?

by shepway @, Friday, June 26, 2020, 15:39 (91 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

I cannot agree to the suggestion that the place of birth is Willington. There is not a dot above the first vowel and when comparing it with the first vowel in Newent it looks much the same. The enumerator also appears to have taken great care to dot the "i's"
I am not aware of a Wellington in Gloucestershire but apart from Somerset there is one in Shropshire and a Wellington Heath near Ledbury which is just 7 miles from Dymock.
I support the request for details of siblings etc as this may well help in locating Edwin Silas's birth.

Mike

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Monday, June 29, 2020, 01:23 (88 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

I love getting help from Australia! How fun and thank you for helping me. I saw this information from Ancestry.com

Birth Year (Estimated) 1834
Birthplace Wellington, Glamorganshire
Page Number 17
Registration Number RG09
Piece/Folio 1759 / 32
Affiliate Record Type Household

But when I went to the original census document you are right! After some erasing on that line, there is a "ditto" mark under Gloucestershire, then it says Willington. It doesn't say Glamorgan or Wales. I remember once driving around the Newent Dymock area, and seeing a tiny little road sign that said "Willington." I wish I could move there for 6 months and get to know the place better.

I don't see Wales on any of the immigration records or the ship passenger lists, either. They all say ENGLAND. His obituary says Leicestershire. Why can't these people get it straight! :)

I love that his job is listed as "Engine Driver Threshing Machine." I loved reading all about this job in some Thomas Hardy novels.

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Monday, June 29, 2020, 13:03 (88 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi

I still have reservations about Edwin Williams coming from Newland, although it is the most promising example have seen so far.
My reservations are to do with his age at 1861 Census time and his intermittent use of the name "Silas".

Is there any chance that his mothers given name might not be "Ann" ?

I gather reading between the lines that you might be in the USA. Am I correct ?

If so, maybe some of the localities, villages ,Parishes in England may seem a bit foreign and confusing. If so and you dont mind my suggesting this, when i am looking for someone, i always try to place their address on a historical Ordnance Survey map, published as close as possible to the date of the record i am viewing. This gives me a good feel for where they are and what is around them. Sometimes i have found villages etc or people living practically next door to each other once i looked at them on a map.

e.g. With Edwin Williams possibility in Newland, as you go back through earlier Baptism,Census records there will be different names shown which could be anywhere in the Parish but when viewed on a map, they all seem to be around the base of a hill or on it and all within a radius of approx one mile.

Of course there was another Edwin Williams with a wife called Ann who became a coal miner who also lived very close by and cropped up in early records.

For maps i use the National Library of Scotland Ordnance Survey Maps website and also
"Know Your Place Gloucestershire" website.

Once you figure out how to use them to the fullest, they are great and show a lot of Historical sites as well.

Good Luck

Sid Toomey

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Tuesday, June 30, 2020, 00:18 (87 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Thank you, Sid. It would be a great idea to check out those maps! I'm going to do that!

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Saturday, June 27, 2020, 06:57 (90 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi

I agree with Mike (Shepway) about "Wellington" but will keep an open mind about "Willington".

i looked at Passenger list for the Emigrant ship "City of Washington" voyage Liverpool to New York in 1868 but no provision in the list for place of birth to be recorded.

Also looked at U.S.A. Census returns for 1870 and 1880. In both returns both parents and all children were recorded as being born in "England". In addition , one of the returns records Edwin Silas mother also being born in England.

As I believe the Welsh were pretty Nationalistic, I doubt they would like being recorded as England born. (Although I have been wrong many times before.)

Therefor, i think England is the best place to look.

Sid Toomey

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Monday, June 29, 2020, 01:25 (88 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Thank you so much, Sid. You are a whiz at this! Who knows, maybe back in some distant primeval forest we are actually related :) Thank you again.

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Monday, June 29, 2020, 12:41 (88 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi Julie,
Thank you for the complement but i think i still have so much to learn about this stuff. The real whizz's are the people who did research before Mr Google came along. I dont know how they did it ?

You mentioned about maybe being related "in some dark part of the Forest, or words to that effect" . If you are interested in some trivia, in the 1861 Census, Mary Bayliss was living with the Williams family. From Mikes message, i gather she was Sarahs mother and born in Churcham, Gloucestershire.
I could be wrong but i believe she was baptised 16th April 1797, the daughter of Samuel and Hannah Brookes.
One the preceding page and succeeding page of the Parish Register are entries for some of my extended relatives.

In the 1841 Census for Churcham there is a Thomas Brookes aged 45, a wheelwright living in Churcham.
In the 1803 Birdwood Common (part of Churcham Parish) Enclosure map, there is a Thomas Brookes had a leasehold on plots 59 and 60 which just happen to be 50-100 metres across a field from where my 3rd Great Grandfather and his father Richard co leased a cottage. possibly one of your relations ?
Good trivia anyway.

With a bit of practice you should be able to look at the map yourself if you are interested. It is available on "Know your place Gloucestershire website.

Sid Toomey

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Saturday, June 27, 2020, 08:41 (90 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi

The following looks promising to me.

1851 Census Parish of Newland has a family living at Millhill.
John and Ann Williams the parents
Among the children are these two :-
Edwin 20 years
John 20 years
The next household recorded as living at Millend.

Then from the Newland Parish Register of Baptisms for the year 1831
on 18th November twins were Baptised.
Edwin and John.
Parents match.
Living at Millend

There are two separate Baptism Registers showing Edwin and John. Identical details but recorded on a different part of a page . Maybe one of them is Bishops Transcripts?


https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp195-231
British History on line for Newland.
The following passage mentions "Welinton"

Newland parish was created in the early Middle Ages by assarting from the Forest of Dean woodland and waste, and its formation was well under way by the start of the 13th century, when its church was built. It was called Welinton in 1220 (fn. 2) and was described as the 'new land of Welinton' in 1232 and 1247, (fn. 3) but later it was called simply Newland (Nova Terra). In 1305 the appropriator of the church, the bishop of Llandaff, was granted the tithes from all recent and future assarts from the Forest waste (fn. 4) and, though the fullest interpretation of the grant was prevented by the claims of other churches of the Forest area, (fn. 5) widely scattered parcels of land thus became part of Newland parish. Besides its main block, formed of the tithings of Coleford, Newland, and Clearwell, the parish had 22 detached parts, (fn. 6) and in 1881 its total area was 8,797 a. (3,560 ha.). (fn. 7)

There appear to be many other Williams records for Newland preceding the above.

Sid

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Saturday, June 27, 2020, 08:52 (90 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

I dont know if you have done this but you can search Parish Records on this site (Newland is a Parish within The Forest of Dean).
I did a quick search and there are heaps of Williams records there for the years around when Edwin was born.
I couldn't find a marriage for his parents easily but as my dinner is getting cold i didn't spend too much time but everything looks promising for more results.

Sid Toomey

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Sunday, June 28, 2020, 06:03 (89 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Hi

Elaborating on my previous replies, if I use the 1861 Census entry as fact and Edwin Silas Williams WAS born in Wellington,
Glo.(Gloucestershire) then i believe Newland and the area around it offers the most likely sources.

In my previous reply i used British History on Line as a source which stated that "Wellinton" was an ancient name for Newland.

As an additional source, there is an Ebook available free online titled "The History of the County of Gloucester Volume 2", written by the Reverend Thomas Rudge and published in 1803.
Page 103, under the chapter on Newland there is a paragraph which states:-
"Hamlets-1. Clowerwall. Anciently called Wellington, sometimes Clearwell......."

Clearwell Village is 1.6 miles from Newland Village with Mill Hill just to the North of Clearwell Village.

If we accept Edwin Silas Williams does come from this area then i have tracked back through 1851 and 1841 Census and Baptism records for his family group before his marriage.

Julie, I can provide these further links if you wish to go further with these lines.

As I see it, the drawbacks to my line of reasoning are as follows :-
In 1851 Census his age would be different with the Millend Edwin Williams being baptised in 1831.
The given names in the 1851 Census of "Edwin Silas" only exist in the records i have looked at, once before when those names were used at the baptism of his son Albert Silas Williams on 24th November 1861.
Also in the Marriage Register for Edwin Silas Williams and Sarah Pickthorne on 20th February 1854 at Newent, his given name was recorded as "Silas" only.
In all other records i have seen e.g. baptism of daughters Harriett Sphia and Charlotte Elizabeth, the fathers name was recorded as "Edwin"

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Monday, June 29, 2020, 01:36 (88 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

EEEEEE!!! Sid this looks terrific! I think you may have figured this out! I am going to look into all of this and see what I can find. You are so kind to take the time to do this. Genealogy leads me to meeting some very kind and generous folks. Did your family move from England to Australia?

Welsh Migration?

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Monday, June 29, 2020, 12:19 (88 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Hi Julie,

I still have some reservations about Edwin Williams coming from Newland, mostly to do with his age and the appearance and disappearance of his "Silas" name so keep an open mind.

In a previous message you mentioned his parents were John and Ann. Where did you get "Ann" from? Was it anywhere other than on his death certificate ? I read Mikes message about "Anna" or "Hannah".

I am going to dig around a bit more to see if anything crops up.

My Direct line of Ancestors came from Churcham in 1800, then to Herefordshire, Then to Wales, Then to Scranton PA then to Sacramento California where my father was born and lived. He was based in Brisbane Queensland Australia with General Douglas MacArthurs headquarters during WW2 where he met and married my mother a local girl.

Sid Toomey

Welsh Migration?

by MPGriffiths @, Sunday, June 28, 2020, 10:03 (89 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Family Search, has a copy of Edward S WILLIAMS Death Record, 16 April 1888 St Peter, MN ..... Contributed by NadineBrown2 - which states he was born in England, and lists his parents as John and Anna WILLIAMS of England. Gloucestershire/Wiltshire accents most times do not sound the H' at the beginning of a word. Hence Anna - which is also an abbreviation for Hannah.

The Trees on Ancestry, give Edwin's death as - 16/4/1888 - St Peter Nicollet Minnesota USA.

(My x Grandad, some Census return's he's Edwin, then Edward, and Edwardo - when he remarries in Chile)
---

Still question whether the family on the 1841 Census, as Dowdeswell, (Whittington) and links to Withington whether this is a possible family.

WILLIAMS


John - 40
Hannah - 40
Elizabeth - 15
Samuel - 10
Silas - 8
Sophia - 6
Edward - 3
John - 1

(not all their children's baptisms are on Ancestry) - Public Members Tree on Ancestry for this family. Contributor: Hazel MANTLE - which lists Silas Williams - 1833, Dowdeswell, parents: John & Hannah WILLIAMS.

--

Silas WILLIAMS was witness to the wedding of Robert IRELAND to Elizabeth WILLIAMS (father John) at Dowdeswell - 14 October 1851.

And Robert lives in Withington - later census etc.

---

Edwin WILLIAMS of Newland, father, John WILLIAMS labourer, aged 33 years of age when he married 1 November 1863 in Newland.


With DNA available now - this does solve many brickwalls. My x Grandad Edwin (sometimes called Edward) - went off to Chile in the 1870's and never came home to his Wife and my Grandad and his brother.

Through DNA - my x Cousins in Chile and America have proved we are decended from Edwin.

Welsh Migration?

by juliewilliams @, Astoria, Oregon, Monday, June 29, 2020, 01:39 (88 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Thank you, MPG.

I did DNA tests on 23 and Me as well as Ancestry.com but I haven't had much luck finding "cousins" from England.

Was there a particular way you went about using the DNA information to find your cousins in Chile?

HA HA PS my grandpa did the same thing, moving to Mexico! He took on a 2nd wife without even divorcing my grandma!

Welsh Migration?

by MPGriffiths @, Monday, June 29, 2020, 06:27 (88 days ago) @ juliewilliams

Initially, a lady in America, who was born in Chile, saw our family tree on the 'net' and the comments regarding our 'lost' x Grandad Edwin who went to Valpariso to work on the Railways, he was a boilermaker and carried on this occupation over there.

Not only when he had children with x women and then eventiually remarried! albeit a Wife in England, (giving his father's name and occupation, exact matches to Edwin on his marriage certificate) he also re-used some names of his children, brother etc. (e.g. Charles, Rhoda) he had left in England. Ancestry DNA send lists out of matches - and as the offspring in Chile and America and taken a test - these matched ours in the UK. Family names were and still are go through generation after generation.

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