Some days the mind doesn't quite work on all circuits!

We all make them :-)

It is funny... I was "just" looking over my tree, trying to find additional facts... when I came across the "Place" where Giles Brain & Joan Mutlow married. I was looking at the way "in ye parish of" was written on some, looked down & saw "Hope Mansell"... and felt like a complete idiot!

Was rushing to post a retraction... and saw your post!

Some days the mind doesn't quite work on all circuits!

Charlotte

I am confused as to where Hope Mansell fits in. Whose wife is she??

Hope Mansell is a place ....:-)

After recieving some much needed help and pouring over Parish Records, I have come up with the same list of family & ancestry as you. I left at Giles #1 and did not take it more, since it was yet confusing to add Giles #2.

I have been looking over Anthony Brain & wife "Jane".... There is a marriage for an Anthony Brain & Sarah Cooper, the same year that Anthony & Jane have their 1st child. Two of their daughters names are "Sarah" and "Jane"... could this wife "Jane" and Sarah Cooper, be one in the same... as in... "Sarah Jane" Cooper??

Anthony Brain who married Rosanna & fathered Leah... is my husband's 3rd Great Grandfather.
His daughter, Leah *
her daughter Mary Ann Bates **
Her son Edward Ralph Watkins
His son Arthur Mores Watkins
His son (my husband) Arthur, Jr.

* immigrated to US in 1884
** " " " " 1883 with father, Moses Bates & 2 siblings.
(married Thomas H Watkins who immigrated from Wales
alone,in 1888.

Have photos of Mary Ann w/her children & later w/grandchildren and one portrait of her alone when she was up in age.

Not only am I researching for knowlege and our own personal benefit... we also, have a goal to make a trip to England/Wales to see where my husband's roots began. In the process, it would be neat to meet & greet others who have some of the same forefathers as he. Our biggest task is setting up a route & best way to go. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Since we (obviously) live so far away, it is difficult to understand the area & what is best, etc.

Would that be an appropriate 'new thread' to begin on this board? How to plan your "Ancestry Trip"?

Another follow-up/question I have.... am a little confused on your lineage. I am probably slow or missing something here. Correct me, if I am wrong
I am confused as to where Hope Mansell fits in. Whose wife is she??
And as it goes... your 6th Great Grandparents Giles Brain & Joan Mutlow are my husband's 6th, as well.

As ever, I have added a few snippets of information from this thread from Slowhand and others. So it is proper to add some of my own :

Anthony Brain who married Rosanna and fathered Leah is my 2nd cousin 5 times removed. He was born 11 May 1811 & baptised 9 Jun 1811 Little Dean son of Anthony Brain 1763/1844 & Jane married Little Dean 1786 - 11 children. Anthony Brain 1763 son of Christopher Brain 1725/1799 & Ruth 1728/1796 -13 children. Christopher Brain 1725 son of one of my 6 times Great Grandparents Giles Brain 1686/1749 & Joan Mutlow 1691/1761 married 9 Feb 1714 Hope Mansell - 9 children. I believe - but am not so confident - that Giles Brain 1691 was the son of Giles Brain & Elinor.

It will be noted that I am missing the surname of some spouses above - if anyone has more info....

Jim Ashton

I had Moses, Ann & Susanah

That means that sister Ann & Brother-in-law (husband to Eleanor) were witnesess to Moses marry Mary Ann Smith.

Thank you!

father: Moses BATE, farmer, William SMITH, Farmer, - witnesses: Richard PRITCHARD* and Ann BATE

Just checking out as looking at the 1851 census, there is a Richard PRITCHARD in Saul, Glos with wife Eleanor, who was born in Longney!

and looking at Gloucestershirebdm

Richard PRITCHARD married Eleanor BATE, Gloucester St Mary de Crypt 1838. Think this is his second wife and from Gloucestershire Baptism Index, Richard and wife Esther had children at Saul. Saul is about 1 and a half miles from Frampton on Severn, were Moses BATE was working in 1871.

FOD record, baptism at Longney - 20 July 1817

Eleanor BATE, parents Moses & Susannah

1892 Tonawanda, Erie, NY & 1905 Marilla, Erie New York State census

1892 has the addition of child: Frances born in England
1905 no children at home

Census states they were married about 1872 - that would have to be when they were still in England "if" they married at all.

Moses Adolphus BATE

Father: BATE

Mother maiden: SMITH

1844

Gloucester

Gloucester, Haresfield

=======

BATE

Moses

SMITH

Mary Ann

Gloucester

Gloucester

St Mary de Crypt

1841

32 No 1

74

Moses BATE - 45 Farmer, all born in County
Susanna - 45
Moses - 25
Ann - 20
Susannah - 15

------

Been trying to fathom out why Leah and Moses would have a son called William SMITH BATES

Looking at GloucesterhireBDM

Moses Adolphus BATE (FOD records, Moses Aclolplius BATE) was christened at Longney 23 June 1844 - parents Moses & Marianne, residence: Longney, farmer

Church of Latter Day Saints

Moses BATE, married Mary Ann SMITH - 23 June 1841, St Mary De Crypt, Gloucester

---

Using the Advance search for children of Moses BATE and Marianne - Mary Anne and Mary Ann at Longney, Farmer....

Mary Ellen 1842
Moses Aclolplius 1844
Tom Egbert 1846
William Cuthbert - 1846
Annis Druesilla - 1847 ***
Laura Lydia - 1862

---

On the 1881 Census for Longney, Patrol Farm

Mary A BATES age 60 a retired farmer, born Wiltshire, is living with Annis & Isaiah ELLIS.

Back to the 1851 census, where Mary Ann BATE is in Longney born Swindon, Wiltshire (my home town)....

1851 Longney, Glos.

William SMITH - 60 - Farmer of 60 acres.
Mary SMITH - 75, born Glos. Nymsfield
Mary Ann BATE - 32 - born Swindon, Wiltshire
Adolphus BATE - 6 - born Longney. Glos
Mary Hellen BATE - 9 - born Longney. Glos
Annis BATE - 3 - born Longney. Glos

On the 1841 census, this family are in Longney, same pages as Moses BATE

William SMITH - 45, Farmer, all born in County
Mary SMITH - 60
Mary SMITH -20

Looks like it could be the case. Leah had George but was unmarried. Her older sister, Dinah and husband raised George. Looks like George took on Grindle last name when he got older... or could have been adopted. Some time shortly after census, Leah and Moses Bate(s) get together. So far, can't find 'official' marriage for them... so for some reason they may not have. (Could he have been married to someone else & could not afford a divorce?)

I also, found Leah on a 1871 census with her sister Roseanna & brother-in-law Charles Griffith:

Name: Leah Brian
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Sister-in-law
Gender: Female
Where born: Littledean, Gloucestershire, England
Civil parish: Awre
Ecclesiastical parish: Blakeney
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Westbury On Severn
Sub-registration district: Newnham
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 11
Piece: 2596
Folio: 53
Page Number:3
Household Members:
Charles Griffith 22
Roseanna Griffith 23
Mary Griffith 1
Leah Brian 20

FOD records

Baptism at Littledean - 3 July 1870

George BRAIN, father's forenames (not stated), mother's Forenames: Leah

residence: Littledean, occupation: not stated, Illegitimate son.

---

? was George taken on by his Aunt???

1881 Census, Westbury on Severn, East Dean

Joseph GRINDLE, 34, Coalminer, born East Dean
Dinah GRINDLE - 37 - born Little Dean
George GRINDLE - 10 - born Little Dean
Maynard BRAIN, brother, 26, Nailmaker, born Littledean

GloucestershireBDM - Joseph GRINDLE married Dinah BRAIN, FOD Westbury on Severn Register Office 1865

Can't see any baptism of children for this couple in FOD records, and on the 1871 census Little Dean

Joseph GRINDLE 24
Dinah GRINDLE - 25

no children listed

-------

-------

?

1891 Census, Glos. East Dean
Cinderford Tump?

Joseph GRINDLE - 49, Coalminer, born East Dean
Sarah (transcribed as, but looks like Dinah) GRINDLE - 45 - born Little Dean
George BRAIN - 20, Coalminer, born Little Dean

Registration District:

........ (the year is put in here) then birth in the Sub District of ....... in the County of......

-------

Then in a separate 'block'

Column No: for example 450

When and Where born :

Sex :

Name and Surname of father: not always entered ..... usually because illegitimate

Name, Surname and maiden surname of mother: not always entered ...... usually because illegitimate

Occupation of father:

Signature, description and residence of informant:

When registered:

Surname of registrar:

---

I have in the passed rang Gloucestershire Register Office and they've given me details over the telephone - link is on the GloucestershireBDM. Think the telephone no quoted is +44 01242 5332455

so just to gather the info together and perhaps fill a few gaps

siblings
1832 BRAIN Anthony Anthony Rosanna L[ittle] Dean Nailor Littledean
1834 BRAIN Jane Anthony Rosanna L[ittle] Dean Nailor Littledean
1836 BRAIN Harriet Anthony Rosanna Little Dean Nailer Littledean
1840 BRAIN Philip Anthony Rosanna Little Dean Nailer Littledean
1841 BRAIN Emma Anthony Rosanna Little Dean Nailer Littledean
1844 BRAIN Dinah Anthony Rosanna Little Dean Nailer Littledean
1848 BRAIN Rose Hannah Anthony Rose Hannah Little Dean Labourer Littledean
1850 BRAIN Sarah Anthony Rose Hannah LIttle Dean Nailer Littledean
1853 BRAIN Maynard Anthony Rose Hannah LIttle Dean Nailer Littledean
1855 BRAIN Alby Anthony Rose Hannah LIttle Dean Nailer Littledean
1858 BRAIN Esau Anthony Rose Hannah LIttle Dean Nailer Littledean

1841
Anthony Prais abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Rosanna Prais abt 1812 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Anthony Prais abt 1832 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Prais abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Harriett Prais abt 1836 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Phillip Prais abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Anthoney Brain abt 1761 Gloucestershire, England Little Dean, Gloucestershire

1851
Anthony Brain abt 1813 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Rosanna Brain abt 1812 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Anthony Brain abt 1833 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Harriet Brain abt 1837 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Philip Brain abt 1840 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Emma Brain abt 1843 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Dinah Brain abt 1845 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Rhodan Brain abt 1847 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Rosanna Brain abt 1849 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire

Year: 1851
Month: Apr
Day: 19
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: Leah
Fathers_Forenames: Anthony
Mothers_Forenames: Rose Hannah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: LIttle Dean
Occupation: Nailer
Officiating_Minister: H M Willis Off[iciatin]g Min[iste]r
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P110 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 70
Parish_Chapel: Littledean

1861 Church St
Anthony Brain Senr abt 1810 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Littledean, Gloucestershire Nailor and Beer House keeper
Rose Anna Brain abt 1810 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Littledean, Gloucestershire
Dinah Brain abt 1845 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Littledean, Gloucestershire
Rhoda Brain abt 1847 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Littledean, Gloucestershire
Rose Anna Brain abt 1849 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Littledean, Gloucestershire
Leah Brain abt 1852 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Littledean, Gloucestershire
Maynard Brain abt 1854 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Littledean, Gloucestershire
Albia Brain abt 1855 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Littledean, Gloucestershire
Esau Brain abt 1859 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Littledean, Gloucestershire

Year: 1870
Month: Jul
Day: 3
Parents_Surname: BRAIN
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Leah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Littledean
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: William Lockitt
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Illegitimate son
Notes:
Register_Reference: P110 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 30
Parish_Chapel: Littledean

1871 Church st
Anthony Bram 59 Nail maker
Rossa Anna Bram 58
Maynard Bram 17
Esan Bram 12
Leah Bram 20
Ellby Bram 15
George Bram 10 Months grandson

1881
Moses A. Bates abt 1844 Longney, Gloucestershire, England Head Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire
Leah Bates abt 1849 Little .[DEAN].., Gloucestershire, England Wife Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire
William T. Bates abt 1878 Barton, Staffordshire, England Son Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire
Mary A. Bates abt 1874 Burton On trent, Staffordshire, England Daughter Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire
Ellen F. Bates abt 1877 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire
Mary A. Geary abt 1855 Lodger Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire
Charles Barker abt 1857 Newhold ?, Bedfordshire, England Visitor Barton Under Needwood, Staffordshire

Moses BATES crosses Atlantic in 1883
Leah BRAIN crosses Atlantic in 1884

Marriage maybe in the States.......

1890 census destroyed ?

1900
Moses A Bates name city, Erie, New York
Sarah Bates [Leah Bates] name city, Erie, New York

1910
Marce A Buter [Moses A Bates] name city, Erie, New York
Leah Buter [Leah Bates] name city, Erie, New York

Everything you gave me... is what I had for Moses "Adolphus" Bate(s). I noticed that sometimes it has the "s" and others it doesn't.

The Leah is the one I am hung up on, as well as, any marriage find.

I Noticed a Mary A for 1872 & 1873... both had no maiden name for mother listed. My/our Mary Ann was born 06 Nov 1873... according to her death certificate.

Would the mother's maiden name be on the actual birth certificate & father's name, etc...

a suspect a year out but not unknown

Name: Mary Ann Bates
Date of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1873
Registration district: Burton upon Trent
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 387

The Leah is the one I am hung up on, as well as, any marriage find.

I Noticed a Mary A for 1872 & 1873... both had no maiden name for mother listed. My/our Mary Ann was born 06 Nov 1873... according to her death certificate.

Would the mother's maiden name be on the actual birth certificate & father's name, etc...

BATES

Moses - 46. Farmer, born Glos. Longney
Adolphus - 16 - Farmer's Son, born Glos. Longney
Mary - 19 - Farmer's daughter, born Glos. Longney

on the 1871 census, Adolphus BATES - age transcribed as 21 - but could be 27 or even 29, is a Farm Servant at Frampton on Severn Glos.

There are about 3 choices for a Leah BRAIN .....

is the link to Staffordshire births, marriages, and deaths - there may be information there also.

There is a Francis G BRAIN, mother's maiden name not given, 1882 - Burton on Trent.

Also - William SMITH BATES - Burton on Trent 1878 - again mother's maiden name not given

? and a

Mary BATES, 1874, - Stoke on Trent - mother's maiden name BATES

I knew that was their census record for '81 but didn' tlook at the 'fine print' for Ellen P Bates.

Since I have Mary Ann's death certificate with her mother's maiden name as Brain, this just solidifies it even more.

Does this mean that Leah & Moses DID marry??

Looking at the 1881 census at Barton Under Needwood

Lichfield Road

BATES

Moses - 37, Farm Labourer, born Longney, Gloucestershire
Leah - 32 - Charwoman - born Little (crossed through.... Glos)
William J/S - 3 - born Barton, Staffs
Mary A - 7 - born Burton on Trent
Ellen P - 4 - born Cheltenham

GloucestershireBDM

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

Year 1876, Cheltenham

Ellen P BATES, mother's maiden name BRAIN

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