Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Winnie WHITE 1909 Broadwell

Winnie WHITE 1909 Broadwell (reply)

karencoupe123 — Thu, 10 May 2012 14:29:31 +0000

Just to clarify that Winnie is the daughter of Annie Aged 26.

Year: 1909
Month: Dec
Day: 2
Parents_Surname: WHITE
Child_Forenames: Winifred
Fathers_Forenames:
Mothers_Forenames: Annie Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Broadwell
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister: G.A.M. Wynne
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 67
Parish_Chapel: Coleford

Thomas WHITE 1811 & Elizabeth HALE 1816 Joyford (reply)

slowhands — Thu, 10 May 2012 06:21:45 +0000

Jefff

Probable parents of George WHITE 1854

Year: 1835
Month: Oct
Day: 11
Grooms_Surname: WHITE
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: [not stated]
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Hun[dre]d of St. Brevals
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: HAIL
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: [not stated]
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Hun[dre]d of St. Brevals
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Thomas Hale
Witness_2: Mark of Grace Godwin
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: J. Sell Minister
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P1 IN 1/9
Page_Number: 94
Parish_Chapel: Abenhall

1841
Thomas White abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Henry White abt 1839 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Elizth White abt 1821 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Elizth White abt 1837 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Alice White abt 1841 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

1851
Thomas White abt 1811 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth White abt 1816 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry White abt 1839 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Alice White abt 1841 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
William White abt 1844 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas White abt 1847 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Amelia White abt 1847 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann White abt 1850 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire

1861 Joyford
Thomas White abt 1811 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth White abt 1817 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry White abt 1839 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
William White abt 1844 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom White abt 1847 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann White abt 1851 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Hannah White abt 1853 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
George White abt 1855 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth White abt 1858 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Emma White abt 1861 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire

1871
Thomas White 60
Elizabeth White 54
Tom White 24
George White 16
Elizabeth White 13
Emma White 10

Marriage of George WHITE & Mary HALE, Benjamin's Parents (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 09 May 2012 21:11:43 +0000

Thanks Slowhands for correcting my unintentional error, please note I've duly ammended my post. Just shows how it's not wise to try to research while cooking the family dinner !
I found what in many ways looked the correct Marriage Record and in lieu of other better Records mentally misread the Marriage date as 1867 when it's actually 1877.

Re the changing usage of the surnames I admit given the full Census' background
(that I don't have easy access to), plus your admirable long experience of these situations, I understand it was straightforward to you if not me. All good learning experience for me tho I hope you agree.

HALE WHITE (reply)

slowhands — Wed, 09 May 2012 20:19:43 +0000

George and Mary married in 1862, shortly after Benjamins birth in late 1861
WHITE George
HALE Mary
Forest of Dean
Monmouth Register Office 1862 4 195 #

Name: George White
Name: Mary Hale
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1862
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 72

Benjamin is christened HALE, during his childhood years ( as far as the census goes)he is a WHITE, he marries under HALE, and in the first census married in 1891 uses HALE, but its not too hard to see why HALE WHITE came into use by Benjamin and his family. http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=33902

HALE 1911 census + Emily ORPIN/LITTLE/CLUTTERBUCK (reply)

m p griffiths — Wed, 09 May 2012 20:18:42 +0000

Here's the full 1911 census return

1911 Census Monmouthshire, Coleford, Machen Road

living in 6 rooms

Benj WHITE

-----

WHITE

Benjamin - 49 - married 27 years, 10 children born alive, 10 living, Collier Hewer, born Mile End
Sarah Ann - 47 - born Crossway
Annie - 26 single, 1 children born alive, 1 living (this has been crossed out )- born Broadwell ***
Birt - 23 - Collier Hewer
Ben - 21 - Collier Trammer
John - 17 - Moulder
Marion - 14 - Assisting at home
Bessie -11 - School
Fanny - 9
Winnie WHITE, granddaughter - relative - age 1
Emily ORPIN - mother in law relatives - widow age 76 born Wooliston

*** is Winnie her daughter?

----

1891 Census, Newland, Glos

William ORPIN - 73, Engine Driver, born Stroud
Emily ORPIN - 58 - born Woolaston

-----

FOD records, Marriage at Parkend - 28 June 1882

William ORPIN, age 64, Batchelor, labourer, Lane End

father: William ORPIN, Spinner

married

Emily LITTLE, age 48, Widow, residence: Berry Hill

father's surname, CLUTTERBUCK, Stephen, (labourer)

witnesses: James POWELL and Sarah Ann WEBB

----

FOD records, Marriage at Woolaston - 24 February 1856

John LITTLE, bachelor, labourer, residence: Woolaston

father: John LITTLE, labourer

married

Emily CLUTTERBUCK, of full age, Spinster,

father: Stephen CLUTTERBUCK, labourer

mark of John and Margaret LEWIS

Searching Parents of Benjamin HALE b1862 (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 09 May 2012 19:43:43 +0000

Hi Karen, thanks for clearing things up. Sorry for repeating what you already knew, just trying to satisfy my own curiosity, really should have waited for your clarification, ah well live & learn. Sorry to hear about Benjamin's sad end.

I'm annoyed I meant to check Benjamin's parents marriage details, sadly I cannot find their Marriage on the FoD PRs as it was a Registry Office affair as per Slowhands post below. I wonder why, was this just because they were non-conformists or ?....

While searching I also found this PR which at first glance looked very close, "shame" the dates so clearly don't add up, sorry for not fully thinking it thro... was trying to cook at the same time !

SO who is this ? Family or coincidence ?
Same groom's father Thomas White ?.
So many similarities, I know White & Hale are common Forest names but even so ... ?

Record ID 15070
Entry Number 361
Year 1877
Month Dec
Day 22
Grooms Surname WHITE
Grooms Forenames George
Grooms Age 23
Groom Condition Batchelor
Grooms Occupation Collier
Grooms Residence Lane End
Grooms Fathers Surname White
Grooms Fathers Forenames Thomas
Grooms Fathers Occupation Collier
Brides Surname HALE
Brides Forenames Mary
Brides Age 17
Brides Condition Spinster
Brides Occupation [not stated]
Brides Residence Lane End
Brides Fathers Surname Hale
Brides Fathers Forenames Henry
Brides Fathers Occupation Collier
Licence or Banns Banns
Date of Banns
Signature or Mark Both sign
Witness 1 Mark of Ann Grindel
Witness 2 Edward Grindel
Other Witnesses
Officiating Minister Jo[hn] Jo[seph] Elsworth Vicar
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P245 IN 1/21
Page Number 181
Parish Chapel Parkend

So clearly TOO MANY years after Benjamin had arrived in 1862:

SO WHO IS THIS ? ARE THEY RELATIONS TO OURS ?

If this George was 23 in 1877 then born abt 1854, father Thomas White; there is no Birth/Baptism in FoD PRs. Searching GlosBMD 1853-1856 gives this "possible":

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WHITE George WHITE WHITE HALE 1854 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 10 312

So if this is the correct Record then George's mother is White nee Hale !.

Which I'm pleased to find is verified by Slowhands' subsequent post below, thanks sir !. George's parents started their family rather earlier than the scope of the FreeBMD & Glos BMD sites, no wonder I couldn't find them.

Searching for Mary Hale's birth, born abt 1860, father Henry, so from FoD PRs:

Record ID 103320
Entry Number
Year 1862
Month May
Day 19
Parents Surname HALE
Child Forenames Mary Ann
Fathers Forenames Henry
Mothers Forenames Lucy
Mothers Surname
Residence
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda Born 13 Sep 1860
Notes
Register Reference D5533 1/1
Page Number 80
Parish Chapel Coleford Congregational

So again the Non-Conformist Chapel..

Searching their Marriage, not in FoD PRs, but from GlosBMD:

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HALE Henry WHITTINGTON Lucy Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office 1857 3 164

From my Glos FHS 1851 Census cd this seems most likely Henry ? (plus of course more Thomas, George, Marys & Anns!):

2444 1851 CENSUS HO107/2444 FF.0283-0302 ED.5H COLEFORD 1
Piece: 2444 Folio: 0298 Schedule: 087

Address: Five Acres
HALE Thomas HD M 58 Coal Miner GLS Lane End (c1793)
HALE Ann WI M 49 Coal Miner's Wife GLS Lane End (c1802)
HALE Thomas SO U 22 Coal Miner GLS Lane End (c1829)
HALE Eliza DA U 20 At Home GLS Lane End (c1831)
HALE Henry SO U 16 Coal Miner GLS Lane End (c1835)
HALE George SO - 13 Coal Miner GLS Lane End (c1838)
HALE Mary DA - 11 At Home GLS Lane End (c1840)

and the only Lucy W on County census:

2444 1851 CENSUS HO107/2444 FF.0138-0153 ED.4C COLEFORD 1
Piece: 2444 Folio: 0152 Schedule: 095

Address: Incline
WHITTINGTON Harriett HD M 36 Laundress Pauper GLS Newland (c1815)
WHITTINGTON Lucy DA U 14 - GLS Newland (c1837)
WHITTINGTON James SO - 11 Collier GLS Newland (c1840)
WHITTINGTON Eliza DA - 9 - GLS Newland (c1842)
WHITTINGTON William SO - 6 - MON Monmouth (c1845)

=====================================================================================

While searching the above I've also found these Records which may hopefully be of interest:

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WHITE George Birt WHITE WHITE HALE 1874 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 32 1

The only Hale White I can find on Glos BMD is much later:

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE-WHITE Norman E HALE-WHITE 1932 Cheltenham Tewkesbury, Tewkesbury 51 139

Which is also the only Hale White to be found on FreeBMD:
Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1932 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hale-White Norman E Hale White Tewkesbury 6a 652

=====================================================================================

Re Slowhand's logical suggestion of the possible Non Conformist roots, I've just started re-searching the Glos Non Conformist website.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Results.aspx

SEVERAL references to various George Whites and Mary Hales all over the County but sadly I cannot find any entry clearly relevant to us except Benjamin's Baptism that we already know, site Reference D5533/1/1 but offers no more detail than shown above.

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

karencoupe123 — Wed, 09 May 2012 11:24:42 +0000

this is also correct - again thanks
Record_ID: 170308
Entry_Number: 2159
Year: 1911
Month: Jun
Day: 20
Surname: HALE
Forenames: Marian
Residence: Daughter of Benjamin Hale and Sarah Ann his wife
Age_at_death: 14
Officiating_Minister: G A M Wynne
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) Broadwell Lane End (2) South Div[ision] : Adults Gr[ave] (3) L13 (4) Consecrated (5)
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25 / 204 / 2
Page_No: 7
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery
Soundex: H400

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

karencoupe123 — Wed, 09 May 2012 11:22:41 +0000

Hi Again, the information you have found below is correct. thank you

Searching this site's FoD PRs confirms(?) the Brides surname:
Record_ID: 108354
Entry_Number:
Year: 1884
Month: Oct
Day: 7
Grooms_Surname: HALE
Grooms_Forenames: Benjamin
Grooms_Age: 23
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: collier
Grooms_Residence: of this parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Hale
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: George
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: collier
Brides_Surname: LITTLE
Brides_Forenames: Sarah Ann
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: of this parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Little
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John (deceased)
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both sign
Witness_1: Thos Jas White
Witness_2: Bessie Little
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Monmouth
Soundex_Groom: H400
Soundex_Bride: L340

I see the White surname here...?
This also confirms spelling of Hale, often it's spelt Hail or Haile etc which may have helped the search.

For completeness off FoD site:

Record_ID: 103321
Entry_Number:
Year: 1862
Month: May
Day: 19
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Benjamin
Fathers_Forenames: not stated
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 28 Oct 1861
Notes: Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: D5533 1/1
Page_Number: 80
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Congregational
Soundex: H400

(No father's name to help confirm but this is the best "possible" I can find, correct year and locality).

and:

Record_ID: 45345
Entry_Number: 1827
Year: 1864
Month: Mar
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: LITTLE
Child_Forenames: Sarah Ann
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Emily
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Crossways
Occupation: Engine Driver
Officiating_Minister: S.C.Morgan Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 229
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: L340

Also here's Marriage witness Bessie, Sarah's sister:

Record_ID: 45437
Entry_Number: 1919
Year: 1866
Month: Sep
Day: 9
Parents_Surname: LITTLE
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Emily
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Berry Hill
Occupation: Engine Driver
Officiating_Minister: N Cornford Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 240
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: L340

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

karencoupe123 — Wed, 09 May 2012 11:19:39 +0000

firstly may i apologise for my inadequate question.
what i was hoping to find was the birth of Marion as i dont seem to be able to find it.
Marions parents were Benjamin Hale White and Sarah Ann Little. i know Benjamin was born before his mother Mary Hale married George White. i am led to beleive from family that Benjamins biological father was not George White. Benjamin and his siblings were all called Hale White or used the H for Hale as a middle name, some records/census show them as being called for example Marion White, Marion H White or Marion Hale White.
sorry, im struggling to work it all out myself.

karen

Marion Hale (White ?) 1896? - 1911 (reply)

karencoupe123 — Wed, 09 May 2012 11:17:38 +0000

Hi Jeff.
i can confirm that Benjamin died from wounds sustained in the first world war.

karen

Marian HALE / WHITE 1896 - 1911 (prior thread) (reply)

slowhands — Wed, 09 May 2012 08:46:07 +0000

Hi,
Can anyone help find the birth/baptism of Marion. Surname Hale-White or White. born 1897 in Broadwell. Parents Benjamin and Sarah.

thanks in advance.

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=33902

you will need to get a copy of the Birth entry, here is the reference....

Name: Marrian Hale
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1896
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 21

1911
WHITE BENJAMIN M 1862 49 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE SARAH ANN F 1864 47 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE ANNIE F 1885 26 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE BEN M 1890 21 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE BESSIE F 1900 11 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE BIRT M 1888 23 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE FANNY F 1902 9 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE JOHN M 1894 17 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE MARION F 1897 14 Monmouth Monmouthshire
WHITE WINNIE F 1910 1 Monmouth Monmouthshire

Year: 1911
Month: Jun
Day: 20
Surname: HALE
Forenames: Marian
Residence: Daughter of Benjamin Hale and Sarah Ann his wife
Age_at_death: 14
Officiating_Minister: G A M Wynne
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) Broadwell Lane End (2) South Div[ision] : Adults Gr[ave] (3) L13 (4) Consecrated (5)
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25 / 204 / 2
Page_No: 7
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery

non conformist roots ??

Marion Hale (White ?) 1896? - 1911 (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 09 May 2012 03:44:56 +0000

Conclusion re my above search:
Despite thoroughly searching the FoD site PRs for several spelling variations of Hale(& White) I cannot provide a full Birth/Baptism Record, sorry ! Even using advanced search for all Baptisms abt 1897 has found nothing. I wonder if she was born further across the border into Monmouthshire so out of the FoD PRs area ...?.

I have also started searching some of the Baptism Records listed within this Monmouthshire site, however there are more records than I have the time to search, sorry. Please feel free to search them yourself if you feel it may be worthwhile.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/monmouthshire-opc.htm

ALTERNATIVELY is it possible her true father was actually a WHITE not a Hale, not that I can find any such PRs on FoD or FreeBMD to confirm this... I'm still confused by your mentioning the possible surname of White, plus the appearance of witness White at her marriage. ?

Please Karen if possible can you clarify wrt the surnames.

Please also advise why you think Marian was born in 1897, or is late 1896 possible as I favor. Was 1897 a Census derived date or do you have firmer evidence ?. Unfortunately I only have the LDS site for Census information, and despite my best efforts cannot find her or even father Benjamin either sides of the border !
I'm surprised I cannot find Benjamin, why ?.

Wrt her birthdate and locality this is probably the nearest I found; quite possibly suffering from the "usual" transcription errors althought it seems that Marin is quite a popular name Stateside at least according to LDS ??!!

Name: Marin H White
Event: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Gender:
Age: 4
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Birthplace: Newland Parish, Gloucestershire
Record Type: Household
Registration District: Monmouth
Sub-district: Coleford
Ecclesiastical Parish: St John
Civil Parish: Colesford (Gloucs)
County: Monmouthshire

Trying again searching LDS for mother Sarah Ann LITTLE b1864, could this be her ?:

Name: Sarah A Little
Age: 17
Gender: Female
Birth Year: 1864
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire, Wales
Relationship to Head of Household: Servant
Marital Condition: Single
Profession/Occupation: General Serv
Address: Cinderhill
Census Place: Ruardean (Gloucs), Herefordshire, Wales
Disability:
Record Type: Household
Family History Library Film: 1341623
The National Archives Reference: RG11
Piece/Folio: 2586 / 74
Page Number: 32

Household Gender Age
Thomas Lerrett M 33
Sarah E J Lerrett F 33
Francis S Fisher M 39
Francis Fisher M 21
Emily Jones F 30
Sarah A Little F 17

Unfortunately thats all I can find, if you or anyone else have other Census data please share them with me and put me out of my quizzical misery, many thanks.

LATER EDIT:
Re-searching this great Forum I find the following related prior thread, thanks Slowhands !

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=33902

He shows the following households, so clearly there was a family surname change from HALE to HALE-WHITE sometime between the 1891 and 1901 Census's:

1891
Benjamin Hale abt 1862 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah A Hale abt 1864 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ethel M Hale abt 1886 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Bert Hale abt 1888 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Benjamin Hale abt 1890 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire

1901
Benjamin H White abt 1862 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Coleford, Gloucestershire
Sarah H White abt 1864 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Wife Coleford, Gloucestershire
Birt H White abt 1888 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Coleford, Gloucestershire
Ben H White abt 1890 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Coleford, Gloucestershire
Lilian H White abt 1893 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Coleford, Gloucestershire
John H White abt 1895 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Coleford, Gloucestershire
Maria H White abt 1897 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Coleford, Gloucestershire
Bessie H White abt 1900 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Coleford, Gloucestershire

1901 ?
Ethel White abt 1886 Lane End, Gloucestershire, England Servant Lydney, Monmouthshire

AND CLEARLY (penny finally drops!) the LDS 1901 Census return posted above for Marin H White is indeed our MariA H(ale)White, why didnt I spot that when I read it..?.

RE-Re searching the FoD PRs for Hale White as a surname, gives following PR:

Record_ID: 170550
Entry_Number: 2398
Year: 1916
Month: Jan
Day: 20
Surname: HALE WHITE
Forenames: Benjamin (Hale)
Residence: Collier
Age_at_death: 26
Officiating_Minister: E H Brice
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) London Hospital (2) South Div[ision] : Adults Gr[ave] (3) M 13 (4) Consecrated (5) London
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25 / 204 / 30
Page_No: 19
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery
Soundex: H430

Being the brother of Maria, died young presumably in mining accident as buried in Coleford or perhaps as WW1 invalid (London Hospital note ??) (Cannot find him in the Inquests section).

This is the only "Hale White" in the FoD site PRs, I think. Probably..
Disappointed I didnt find it earlier due, I think, to it not being hyphenated or alloneword so missed by the search engine & myself, ah well.)

I am sure (almost!) that there are no Baptism/Birth or Burial Records within this sites PRs for our Maria(n) Hale or White or Hale-White. However I'm VERY happy to be proven wrong. PLEASE someone ....

FINALLY: this is a truly excellent HALE FH website that I really should have tried hours ago, although I cannot find our family within it's extensive coverage, but that's no doubt me.
http://www.halefamily.net/forest.html

Goodnight all !

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 08 May 2012 22:04:01 +0000

Thanks Chris, yes I understand the Registrar does the official deed as it were, but in those days where did the Registrar's information come from ?. I guess the offical/minister performing the marriage ?. In otherwords I presume that it wasn't that hard for a couple (not necessarily this one) to get married twice and under different names in two different places if they so wanted to.

You're correct, I should wait for Karen's comfirmation of surnames, just wanted to solve this seemingly straightforward query !

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

william pattern — Tue, 08 May 2012 21:53:52 +0000

HALE Marion Keynsham 5c 575 september 1897 hi karen might be the one? regards

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

ChrisW — Tue, 08 May 2012 21:53:03 +0000

Who actually "registers" the marriage?

The Registrar.

The question is why Marion would be registered as Hale-White or White IF her father was a Hale and IF her parents were married prior to her birth.

We need some clarification from Karen otherwise we are just chasing our tails!

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 08 May 2012 21:33:03 +0000

Thanks for confirming that Chris, just that I was searching for a Sarah Ann WHITE as per the OP and that was the nearest I could find. Having later found the FoD Marriage Record I see the White name wasn't apparently used at all wrt the Bride herself.
Re the official Registers, was it actually possible in those days for someone to register a marriage in say June, then do so again (perhaps using different names) the following December ? in a different Office of the same County. I say this as I'm still confused wrt the Hale OR White surname issue.

Who actually "registers" the marriage ?. The couple, the marriage minister/official, or who ?.

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

ChrisW — Tue, 08 May 2012 21:21:41 +0000

Jeff

These are two separate marriages so the numbers wouldn't correlate!

One is Dec 1884 Monmouth RD and the other is June 1884 Newport RD.

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911 (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 08 May 2012 21:04:11 +0000

Hi,
at first look I cannot find anything similar at all. Please can you help clarify the basics ?.

Starting from first principals searching the Marriage Register on FreeBMD I think I may have the parents marriage, is this it ?. However Sarah isn't apparently a White as I'd anticipated ?.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1884 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Butcher Mary Ann Monmouth 11a 59
HALE Benjamin Monmouth 11a 59
Howells James Monmouth 11a 59
Little Sarah Ann Monmouth 11a 59

I also saw this entry which I thought may be relevant, but I thought (??) the Page Numbers were meant to correlate ?

Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcribers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1884
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHITE Sarah Ann Newport, M. 11a 241 cokesidedoors

Either way as the Marriage is registered at Monmouth I assume the couple were already in the Broadwell "area" (Monmouth being much nearer than say Westbury).

I see the White surname here...?
This also confirms spelling of Hale, often it's spelt Hail or Haile etc which may have helped the search.

For completeness off FoD site:

Record_ID: 103321
Entry_Number:
Year: 1862
Month: May
Day: 19
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Benjamin
Fathers_Forenames: not stated
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 28 Oct 1861
Notes: Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: D5533 1/1
Page_Number: 80
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Congregational
Soundex: H400

(No father's name to help confirm but this is the best "possible" I can find, correct year and locality).

and:

Record_ID: 45345
Entry_Number: 1827
Year: 1864
Month: Mar
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: LITTLE
Child_Forenames: Sarah Ann
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Emily
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Crossways
Occupation: Engine Driver
Officiating_Minister: S.C.Morgan Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 229
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: L340

Also here's Marriage witness Bessie, Sarah's sister:

Record_ID: 45437
Entry_Number: 1919
Year: 1866
Month: Sep
Day: 9
Parents_Surname: LITTLE
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Emily
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Berry Hill
Occupation: Engine Driver
Officiating_Minister: N Cornford Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 240
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: L340

Searching FreeBMD for Marian:
Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcriber
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1896
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hale Marrian Monmouth 11a 21 NewcastleOZ

Suggesting a Birth during October-December 1896.

(I also see many Mary Ann Hales registered in Monmouthshire around this time, just to add extra room for my error!)

Also:

Surname Given Name Age District Volume Page Transcriber
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1912
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hale Marian 5 Cardiff 11a 556 AnneM

So this Death is registered Quarter ending March 1912 so could have actually died very late 1911 as you posted.

BUT (oddly, unless the above is the wrong child), searching FoD PRs:

Record_ID: 170308
Entry_Number: 2159
Year: 1911
Month: Jun
Day: 20
Surname: HALE
Forenames: Marian
Residence: Daughter of Benjamin Hale and Sarah Ann his wife
Age_at_death: 14
Officiating_Minister: G A M Wynne
Event: Interment
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (1) Broadwell Lane End (2) South Div[ision] : Adults Gr[ave] (3) L13 (4) Consecrated (5)
Notes:
Register_Reference: DA25 / 204 / 2
Page_No: 7
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Cemetery
Soundex: H400

I realise all this is probably what you already know, but I just wanted to clearup my own slight confusion wrt surnames plus the geographics.

PLEASE SEE MY CONCLUSION & QUESTIONS BELOW...

Marion Hale White 1897 - 1911

karencoupe123 — Tue, 08 May 2012 19:36:18 +0000

Hi,
Can anyone help find the birth/baptism of Marion. Surname Hale-White or White. born 1897 in Broadwell. Parents Benjamin and Sarah.

thanks in advance.